BillsVet Posted February 23, 2014 Posted February 23, 2014 (edited) How about the fact that the same front office gave new deals to: Freddie Stevie Chandler Wood Urbik Pears Kyle Williams McKelvin They do re-sign players...the vast majority of them in fact. And for the record--it sounds like they'll be keeping Byrd; how is this a bad thing again? An elite safety is Earl Thomas, Kam Chancellor, Eric Weddle, Eric Berry, or Ed Reed/Troy Polamalu in their primes. Byrd is very good--he doesn't sniff what the elite guys do... 8 safeties were voted 1st or 2nd team All-Pro in 2013. Byrd was one of them, as he has now been selected All-Pro 3 times in 5 season. Your player evaluation seems rooted in being against what Byrd wants to be paid, not how he's performed on the field. I've not heard anything about the Bills keeping Byrd, only that they'll explore every option possible. My question remains: How does trading Byrd for a rookie help Buffalo win in 2014? IMO, it means taking a step back at another position for the benefit of saving some cash. And of those re-signed, tell me how many are recognized as elite at their position? No one's arguing Buffalo doesn't re-sign players, rather, the debate is whether they'll keep All-Pro or similar types. Edited February 23, 2014 by BillsVet
NoSaint Posted February 23, 2014 Posted February 23, 2014 (edited) How about the fact that the same front office gave new deals to: Freddie Stevie Chandler Wood Urbik Pears Kyle Williams McKelvin They do re-sign players...the vast majority of them in fact. Of course they do, but chandler, pears, and urbik are a totally different discussion. Even Freddy was a hugely discounted deal. It's tough because we haven't had a lot of top 5 or even top 10 type of players, with wood and kyle maybe being the only on that list, with guys like peters, levitre, and byrd certainly not going as well as many of those those. Even whitner and poz are above several of those you mentioned. I don't mean that as the type of aggressive bash of the team that we sometimes see but it's tough to be 100% on the bandwagon that we are going to get it right. Even with Kirby's confidence being something I have hints of in my own head we blew it with levitre and no replacement at guard or other use of the cap space just a year ago with these guys in place Edited February 23, 2014 by NoSaint
thebandit27 Posted February 23, 2014 Posted February 23, 2014 8 safeties were voted 1st or 2nd team All-Pro in 2013. Byrd was one of them, as he has now been selected All-Pro 3 times in 5 season. Your player evaluation seems rooted in being against what Byrd wants to be paid, not how he's performed on the field. I've not heard anything about the Bills keeping Byrd, only that they'll explore every option possible. My question remains: How does trading Byrd for a rookie help Buffalo win in 2014? IMO, it means taking a step back at another position for the benefit of saving some cash. And of those re-signed, tell me how many are recognized as elite at their position? No one's arguing Buffalo doesn't re-sign players, rather, the debate is whether they'll keep All-Pro or similar types. I'm not slanted toward anything. I want to keep Byrd. Calling him elite means he's as good as the best in the game--my opinion is that he isn't. An according to Beerball's link, the team will franchise him again if they can't reach a deal--that means they're keeping him (unless someone offers them a sweet deal). Of course they do, but chandler, pears, and urbik are a totally different discussion. Even Freddy was a hugely discounted deal. It's tough because we haven't had a lot of top 5 or even top 10 type of players, with wood and kyle maybe being the only on that list, with guys like peters, levitre, and byrd certainly not going as well as many of those those. Even whitner and poz are above several of those you mentioned. I don't mean that as the type of aggressive bash of the team that we sometimes see but it's tough to be 100% on the bandwagon that we are going to get it right. Even with Kirby's confidence being something I have hints of in my own head we blew it with levitre and no replacement at guard or other use of the cap space just a year ago with these guys in place I get all that--I just don't think we can use the past as evidence against the idea of re-signing certain players. I also don't think it's sensible to completely dismiss value as part of the discussion simply because the team had cap space as some folks (not you) seem to do.
KOKBILLS Posted February 23, 2014 Posted February 23, 2014 He is an elite Saftey. An elite safety is not worth $10M dollars in this league. I would rather allocate $10M to positions that make a large impact or split between a few places. I felt that Levitre was a really good player as was Poz (neither as good as Byrd) but the money that they got on the open market was more than they were worth. I find it funny that people scream about analytics and as the Bills use it everyone gets mad. If Byrd is at $8M then lock him up. If the $10+ number that's rumored is out there no reason to. It is a combination of factors and it is not viewed as is Byrd good. The answer is yes he is a great player. If $10M is the number, is $10M best spent on Byrd or as the example earlier $7M on Ward, $3M on Wharton and a 2nd round pick? If it is me and I can get a starting LG, a pro bowl Saftey and a starting TE (ASJ) for example that is a better decision IMO. I completely agree with this point... I also think that there is a great possibility Byrd has peaked as a player...Now...He may very well prove me wrong...Especially if he gets into a Lil Donte-type situation where he lands on a great Defense...There is no question his instincts as a FS are elite, and should remain that way for years to come...But looking at Byrd this past season, watching him run, with the reality of the PF as a factor...I think it's very possible he's on the decline...Even if it's a very slow decline over the next couple years...And I would worry big-time about allocating that kind of money to him... But admittedly that may be just me...
YoloinOhio Posted February 23, 2014 Posted February 23, 2014 I'm not slanted toward anything. I want to keep Byrd. Calling him elite means he's as good as the best in the game--my opinion is that he isn't. An according to Beerball's link, the team will franchise him again if they can't reach a deal--that means they're keeping him (unless someone offers them a sweet deal). Seems like a good strategy to me. I wouldn't overpay him more than what the Bills feel he is worth to the team, Not saying don't pay him what he is worth. But if he wants more than what he is worth to the team, and can get more elsewhere, he can go get that next year. Just like all guys do. If the Bills were winning (and maybe they will be next year, we have no idea, he may choose to stay). Bills have decent cap space. But need to think about future contracts and draft picks too.
BillsVet Posted February 23, 2014 Posted February 23, 2014 I'm not slanted toward anything. I want to keep Byrd. Calling him elite means he's as good as the best in the game--my opinion is that he isn't. An according to Beerball's link, the team will franchise him again if they can't reach a deal--that means they're keeping him (unless someone offers them a sweet deal). The idea of tagging him is to trade and get value. If they tag with the intent of keeping him, the team would have paid him 15M+ for 2 seasons and all of it guaranteed. I define elite as being a 1st or 2nd team All-Pro, which Byrd has been 3 out of 5 seasons. Perhaps you have another definition. You've also failed to answer my question: How does trading Byrd for rookies make this team better in 2014? After all, it's about winning now, not 2 years from now. As a fan, I'm not interested in reducing their cap hit or cash outlay. I want to win, and this franchise has a better shot at that with Jairus Byrd than without.
K-9 Posted February 23, 2014 Posted February 23, 2014 The idea of tagging him is to trade and get value. If they tag with the intent of keeping him, the team would have paid him 15M+ for 2 seasons and all of it guaranteed. I define elite as being a 1st or 2nd team All-Pro, which Byrd has been 3 out of 5 seasons. Perhaps you have another definition. You've also failed to answer my question: How does trading Byrd for rookies make this team better in 2014? After all, it's about winning now, not 2 years from now. As a fan, I'm not interested in reducing their cap hit or cash outlay. I want to win, and this franchise has a better shot at that with Jairus Byrd than without. $15m guaranteed for two years is a bargain for Byrd. Especially if he's asking north of $10m avg. and north of $25m guaranteed. As for my definition of elite, let's just say it's more than being named 2nd team All Pro or to the Pro Bowl. Like I've said before, there's a difference between being recognized as one of the best at your position vs. being "elite." GO BILLS!!!
NoSaint Posted February 23, 2014 Posted February 23, 2014 The idea of tagging him is to trade and get value. If they tag with the intent of keeping him, the team would have paid him 15M+ for 2 seasons and all of it guaranteed. I define elite as being a 1st or 2nd team All-Pro, which Byrd has been 3 out of 5 seasons. Perhaps you have another definition. You've also failed to answer my question: How does trading Byrd for rookies make this team better in 2014? After all, it's about winning now, not 2 years from now. As a fan, I'm not interested in reducing their cap hit or cash outlay. I want to win, and this franchise has a better shot at that with Jairus Byrd than without. It's, hopefully, not just a rookie but also cap space that allows signings, that you get in return for the trade. That might give us as good, or possibly a better shot, depending in how used. That said - Byrd I feel like is a relatively safe place to invest with little downside. If we do Delmas, Streif and ASJ at TE from the resource that is Byrd it's a bit different to weigh than simply getting some rookie (some boom or bust there vs a safe Byrd). I've been pretty vocal that I'd like them to sign Byrd even at a high price but that doesn't mean they couldn't do as well elsewhere.
papazoid Posted February 23, 2014 Posted February 23, 2014 I call "elite" anyone in the Top 5 at their position. Byrd is elite.
3rdand12 Posted February 23, 2014 Posted February 23, 2014 I completely agree with this point... I also think that there is a great possibility Byrd has peaked as a player...Now...He may very well prove me wrong...Especially if he gets into a Lil Donte-type situation where he lands on a great Defense...There is no question his instincts as a FS are elite, and should remain that way for years to come...But looking at Byrd this past season, watching him run, with the reality of the PF as a factor...I think it's very possible he's on the decline...Even if it's a very slow decline over the next couple years...And I would worry big-time about allocating that kind of money to him... But admittedly that may be just me... no. its me too.
CardinalScotts Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 I like Byrd a lot and prefer to keep him, my only frustration is this team is not locked into over paying for a good quarterback at this time nor the next 3-4 years. We have the money pay the guy
KOKBILLS Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 I like Byrd a lot and prefer to keep him, my only frustration is this team is not locked into over paying for a good quarterback at this time nor the next 3-4 years. We have the money pay the guy We do now...But there is a price to pay (no pun intended)...It would likely mean Aaron Williams can't be resigned, especially if he continues to improve...And if Byrd is not able to stay healthy and play at the level he has the past couple years it will really put pressure on the Bills cap situation...It's not cut and dry...There is considerable risk...
purple haze Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 We do now...But there is a price to pay (no pun intended)...It would likely mean Aaron Williams can't be resigned, especially if he continues to improve...And if Byrd is not able to stay healthy and play at the level he has the past couple years it will really put pressure on the Bills cap situation...It's not cut and dry...There is considerable risk... True. But Byrd has performed at a higher level longer than Aaron Williams. He has been consistent. So he gets paid. You’re right they can’t keep everybody and that is where your Searcy’s, Duke Williams and Jonathan Meeks’ come into play. Or whoever else they might draft to gird against the likely loss of an Aaron Williams.
ganesh Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 Eric Wood? GO BILLS!!! Kiko,Wood are all 1st/2nd round picks. My point (may be not explicit) was that the Bills have done nothing with the later round picks that have received in trades.
Kirby Jackson Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 Kiko,Wood are all 1st/2nd round picks. My point (may be not explicit) was that the Bills have done nothing with the later round picks that have received in trades. Wood and Kiko were picks received in trades (Peters & Manuel respectively). Late round picks have always been and will always be a crapshoot. That is not a Bills issue that is an everyone issue. If they get a 2nd (which I have a feeling they may if they decide to trade him b/c of the lack of Saftey depth in this class) there is no reason to think that they will mess it up.
BillsVet Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 Wood and Kiko were picks received in trades (Peters & Manuel respectively). Late round picks have always been and will always be a crapshoot. That is not a Bills issue that is an everyone issue. If they get a 2nd (which I have a feeling they may if they decide to trade him b/c of the lack of Saftey depth in this class) there is no reason to think that they will mess it up. I'm not sure where this assumption comes from that says the Bills get a 2nd for Byrd. A team trading for him will have to give him what we all know to be a good sized contract, most likely on average 8.5-9M per for 5 years or more. What if the Bills only get offers for a 3rd? Then what? And even if they get a 2nd round pick, the hit rate there isn't a slam dunk. You could end up with a James Hardy or Torrell Troup because you're drafting for pure need. And this time it would be a self-inflicted wound.
Kirby Jackson Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) I'm not sure where this assumption comes from that says the Bills get a 2nd for Byrd. A team trading for him will have to give him what we all know to be a good sized contract, most likely on average 8.5-9M per for 5 years or more. What if the Bills only get offers for a 3rd? Then what? And even if they get a 2nd round pick, the hit rate there isn't a slam dunk. You could end up with a James Hardy or Torrell Troup because you're drafting for pure need. And this time it would be a self-inflicted wound. The best offer last year was a 4th but it was also a deep safety class. This year there are some teams that are close and in need of a saftey (Philly, Chicago, St. Louis, Denver). In addition both Philly and Cleveland have coaches with ties to him. Cleveland and St. Louis have extra picks this year as well. Would Cleveland deal their 3rd pick (30 something) for Byrd or take the 3rd best Saftey in a weak class? Would St. Louis take Byrd and 9 for the 2nd pick and grab the tackle that they want at 9? The point is that it is conceivable. If the value isn't there it's simple -you don't trade him. This draft class is regarded as the deepest ever which to me would lessen the likelihood of a bust. They will not need to reach for someone like they did with TT. They can use that extra pick on someone like SuA'Filo for example that looks like a really safe, day 1 starting LG. I am just spitballing some options but I think that the trade market for Byrd will be stronger this year. Lastly, to answer your question if I would accept a 3rd, the answer is I don't know. I would say probably not as of today. Edited February 24, 2014 by Kirby Jackson
KOKBILLS Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 True. But Byrd has performed at a higher level longer than Aaron Williams. He has been consistent. So he gets paid. I just don't think it's that simple to be honest... Byrd's 4 years older with PF in both feet...He had the advantage of starting his career as a Safety unlike Williams who played out-of-position for his first two seasons...I'm not about to say Aaron Williams is at Byrd's level yet because he's not...Yet...I think the argument of keeping him over Bryd is a legitimate one though...Especially when you consider the PF...I'd rather keep them both long-term...But I don't think that is possible...Which makes for a tough decision...
Dragonborn10 Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 For all the people that don't want to pay Byrd 10 million a year - what do you think when the Bills are millions under the cap and have losing season after losing season? They are not sing the money to build better team. They did nothing to replace Levitre. They did nothing to upgrade the TE position. After Kolb got concussed they did not go out ad sign another expensive veteran to either help EJ or be ready in case he got hurt. So again I ask what is the point of not paying an extra million to Byrd? They have a QB who is relatively cheap. They have tons of cap romnd tons of dead cap space hat will come off the books after this year assuming they don' do something stupid like cut SJ. Who would you have them spend that extra million on - CJ Spiller a RB who can beat out a 30+ year old RB from nowhere college?? If they trade Byrd all they do is open up a gaping hole in the defense. Doug just pay the man. He has earned it.
thebandit27 Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 For all the people that don't want to pay Byrd 10 million a year - what do you think when the Bills are millions under the cap and have losing season after losing season? They are not sing the money to build better team. They did nothing to replace Levitre. They did nothing to upgrade the TE position. After Kolb got concussed they did not go out ad sign another expensive veteran to either help EJ or be ready in case he got hurt. So again I ask what is the point of not paying an extra million to Byrd? They have a QB who is relatively cheap. They have tons of cap romnd tons of dead cap space hat will come off the books after this year assuming they don' do something stupid like cut SJ. Who would you have them spend that extra million on - CJ Spiller a RB who can beat out a 30+ year old RB from nowhere college?? If they trade Byrd all they do is open up a gaping hole in the defense. Doug just pay the man. He has earned it. Once again we have someone completely ignoring the value component of the equation--arguably the most important component. Teams don't get or stay good in this league by paying more for a player than he deserves. Paying Levtire $8M/year doesn't make this team better in the long run--it makes them worse. Same with wildly overpaying Byrd. Why? Value. If the dollars spent don't bring the value required of them, then it's a poor investment. The Levitre situation worked out poorly because their plan to replace him (Brown) failed. I'm not sure what you thought the team would do once Kolb went down, but if you can point me in the direction of the expensive veteran that was on the market in late August, I'd be interested to see it. You ask what is the money for? I'll tell you...the guys that will be coming up for new deals in the next year or two are: Dareus Aaron Williams Cordy Glenn Jerry Hughes All will be looking for serious money. You cannot pay everyone...nobody can. Decisions need to be made...they need to be made based on value...not simply upon "well we have the cap space".
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