Is TJ Graham as bad as we think?

[Big Turk]

I don't care what the timers say, Goodwin blows by DBs who give him a 10 yard cushion like they aren't even there. Rewatch the Cincy and KC games to see it...its pretty amazing to watch actually...

Edited February 23, 2014 by matter2003

[beerme1]

 

 

Didn't you hear? If one player outperforms another, he's likely to be cut. Thus, Goodwins gone.

 

hehe You're Fired!

 

[machine gun kelly]

TJ Graham PR 100m: 10.21

Marquise Goodwin PR 100m: 10.24

 

Graham 60m: 6.91

Goodwin 60m: 6.69

 

Graham 200m: 20.82

Goodwin 200m: 21.24

 

TJ Graham is faster then Mr Olympic Speed.

 

It doesn't matter how fast you can run if you have stone hands. If it's not perfectly thrown, he doesn't catch the ball. He made critical mistakes like the fumble leading to the touchdown with KC where we lost.

 

We need an upgrade at WR. And TE.

 

 

Worth note, Goodwin's best times appear to be from High School.

[ALF]

I still think Graham would be a better CB then WR at this point.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

 

Didn't you hear? If one player outperforms another, he's likely to be cut. Thus, Goodwins gone.

 

Apparently it is challenging to infer but let elaborate.

 

Woods and sj13 are locks and so is goowin. That's two spots left. Graham hasn't ever had any impact on special teams and there has been a lot of chatter about the other bigger targets on the roster. If the bills draft 1 WR, then Graham will be competing against bigger targets potentiall some with special teams impact for 1 spot.

 

Also for those who weren't aware tight end is a different position, which chandler plays. There is a good Wikipedia article on tight ends and how they differ from WRs. A great read for those just learning about the game.

Edited February 23, 2014 by over 20 years of fanhood

[boyst]

Apparently it is challenging to infer but let elaborate.

 

Woods and sj13 are locks and so is goowin. That's two spots left. Graham hasn't ever had any impact on special teams and there has been a lot of chatter about the other bigger targets on the roster. If the bills draft 1 WR, then Graham will be competing against bigger targets potentiall some with special teams impact for 1 spot.

 

Also for those who weren't aware tight end is a different position, which chandler plays. There is a good Wikipedia article on tight ends and how they differ from WRs. A great read for those just learning about the game.

so, the Bills will go in with 5 WR's even though it is their weakest position? Nah.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

not only will he make the them but he will see significant time on the field. His assets as a special teamer are valuable and hopefully someone makes a thread about how and why special teams are important. If Marrone turns the the bottom of the roster over every other week you have an entirely new set of special teamers filling ranks. Add in the mess with poor LB's, role players who hardly are used, crap OL depth and DB injuries of 2013 and you have a major reason why ST was aweful.

 

Anyway, I hope this gem comes back in September when he makes the 53 man roster or is traded and makes someone else's. I bet I'm right.

 

Edit: Oh, and yes, the 40 is over rated. Any WR should run sub 4.6, and I would bet all but maybe 5 in the league do run that. There are dozens of WR's that run in the 4.2's and 3's and that doesn't mean anything if you can't catch, can't stay on the field or can't run a route. The NFL combine going on right now will have lots of guys running the 40, but for the WR position and all intents and purposes it means very little. As long as he's a half-a-crap worth of WR he's going to be fast enough whether he is a big Plax type or an Antonio Brown type - they're plenty fast enough and when they're not they can have elusiveness and other abilities that make up for that silly one-tenth of a second.

 

Trust me, one tenth of a second matters on the track not the football field.

 

A tenth of a second matters and 40 time absolutely matters. Go watch Haubaughs relation to Mantae Teos 40 when he was at the combine MLB shopping. It equates to about a yard of separation after 30 yards.

 

I know there are slower guys who are still great WRs, but if speed is your top asset as a wideout as I'd argue with TJ and Goodwin, faster no matter how little is simply better.

 

Goodwin outran the defense several times last year and under the ball. I've just not seen this from TJ. Stevie is 4.4 4.5 ish and it shows on the field, I can't remember him breaking a long one, whereas CJ at 4.3 has outrun defenses on several occasions.

 

I also haven't seen a special teams impact from TJ. So if he is an asset there, it's not been obvious to me. Id enjoy hearing more about that.

 

so, the Bills will go in with 5 WR's even though it is their weakest position? Nah.

 

Kept 5 last season.

 

 

Trust me, one tenth of a second matters on the track not the football field.

 

I'd like to trust, but you know all the scouts coaches and GMs talk 40, the draft analysts talk 40, the combine runs players through the 40...

 

I mean I guess a chat board poster could know more than all of these collective experts but... Well... It's not likely, kind of like TJ making the roster this season.

Edited February 23, 2014 by over 20 years of fanhood

[boyst]

A tenth of a second matters and 40 time absolutely matters. Go watch Haubaughs relation to Mantae Teos 40 when he was at the combine MLB shopping. It equates to about a yard of separation after 30 yards.

 

I know there are slower guys who are still great WRs, but if speed is your top asset as a wideout as I'd argue with TJ and Goodwin, faster no matter how little is simply better.

 

Goodwin outran the defense several times last year and under the ball. I've just not seen this from TJ. Stevie is 4.4 4.5 ish and it shows on the field, I can't remember him breaking a long one, whereas CJ at 4.3 has outrun defenses on several occasions.

 

I also haven't seen a special teams impact from TJ. So if he is an asset there, it's not been obvious to me. Id enjoy hearing more about that.

The New Orleans game and a few others he did have some break away YAC's. Selective memory my friend, selective memory. You can't take a guy as fast as Graham and say it doesn't come out on the field.

 

Kept 5 last season.

Brad Smith was put on IR late, I think the coaches learned their lesson and were a bit forced last year with some interesting positional depths - the Byrd issue and Gilmore/CB's banged up.

 

I'd like to trust, but you know all the scouts coaches and GMs talk 40, the draft analysts talk 40, the combine runs players through the 40...

 

I mean I guess a chat board poster could know more than all of these collective experts but... Well... It's not likely, kind of like TJ making the roster this season.

40 is important but it's not as important once you run sub 4.4 it is nearly all the same because seldom do you get that chance to actually use that speed. For a RB i'd value that speed more then I would a WR, at least in our system and in my opinion. That is because, to me, we do not run the Oakland type offense where we just run them and run them.

[FireChan]

 

 

Apparently it is challenging to infer but let elaborate.

 

Woods and sj13 are locks and so is goowin. That's two spots left. Graham hasn't ever had any impact on special teams and there has been a lot of chatter about the other bigger targets on the roster. If the bills draft 1 WR, then Graham will be competing against bigger targets potentiall some with special teams impact for 1 spot.

 

Also for those who weren't aware tight end is a different position, which chandler plays. There is a good Wikipedia article on tight ends and how they differ from WRs. A great read for those just learning about the game.

 

So we're going to keep Hogan and Easley and cut a 3rd year player? Graham out performed both of them. Using your logic, they won't make the team.

 

And a lot of chatter about Easley and Barden? From where? TBD? The same place that wants to cut Stevie, draft 7 QB's this year, and trade a franchise tagged Byrd for 2 first round picks? Uh oh, Graham should be worried.

Edited February 23, 2014 by FireChan

[boyst]

So we're going to keep Hogan and Easley and cut a 3rd year player? Graham out performed both of them. Using your logic, they won't make the team.

Yes, Easley. He's too valuable on special teams. And Moats and Bradham fill in like our Mark Pike.

[peterpan]

Targeted only 58 times when he was the 3rd, and often times the 2nd, WR? Stevie missed 4 games and Woods missed 2, that means TJ started 6 games.

 

That in inexcusable right there! And, is pretty good proof that he cannot get open. Then when he does get open, he can't catch it.

 

We need to draft Mike Evans, then promote Goodwin (he produces) and banish TJ to the bench

[Webster Guy]

TJ Graham PR 100m: 10.21

Marquise Goodwin PR 100m: 10.24

 

Graham 60m: 6.91

Goodwin 60m: 6.69

 

Graham 200m: 20.82

Goodwin 200m: 21.24

 

TJ Graham is faster then Mr Olympic Speed.

 

Worth note, Goodwin's best times appear to be from High School.

 

Game speed is totally different with the rare exception of a go route where the receiver isn't jammed by the defender and they just run a straight line.

 

TJ Graham might be good on the Patriots or the Colts, where you have very accurate QB's hitting little guys on the money. We certainly don't have that kind of accuracy in our qb's and neither do most teams.

 

Goodwin has shown himself to have more tenacity and better hands. He's a solid football player and he has ball skills (adjustment to the pass, feeling the defender and using body position to ensure he gets the ball or nobody gets it)

 

I think they will keep TJ this year but he'll back up Goodwin all season. We only need one speedster.

[boyst]

Targeted only 58 times when he was the 3rd, and often times the 2nd, WR? Stevie missed 4 games and Woods missed 2, that means TJ started 6 games.

 

That in inexcusable right there! And, is pretty good proof that he cannot get open. Then when he does get open, he can't catch it.

 

We need to draft Mike Evans, then promote Goodwin (he produces) and banish TJ to the bench

You did not read the article, clearly.

 

58 targets, half of them he deemed bad throws/uncatchable.

 

Game speed is totally different with the rare exception of a go route where the receiver isn't jammed by the defender and they just run a straight line.

 

TJ Graham might be good on the Patriots or the Colts, where you have very accurate QB's hitting little guys on the money. We certainly don't have that kind of accuracy in our qb's and neither do most teams.

 

Goodwin has shown himself to have more tenacity and better hands. He's a solid football player and he has ball skills (adjustment to the pass, feeling the defender and using body position to ensure he gets the ball or nobody gets it)

 

I think they will keep TJ this year but he'll back up Goodwin all season. We only need one speedster.

Why does everyone want to turn this in to Graham/Goodwin? Why not Woods/Graham?

 

In reality Graham was taking time from Woods, not Goodwin.

 

Then you make your point. Graham was running routes, real routes. Goodwin was running straight routes, maybe a flare or post; seldom a curl and maybe once or twice to the inside.

 

I'd rather have neither, to be honest, at #3. Graham would be my pick for the 3rd/4th. Goodwin hasn't shown durability. I am not ready to pull the plug on either but I do not want to rely on them for the starting unit and top 3 WR. Goodwin is best in doses, off the bench to break the top off but lacks the size and durability to consistently cross the middle and run the the routes needed. Graham is still developing his play to become a more well-rounded WR.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

 

So we're going to keep Hogan and Easley and cut a 3rd year player? Graham out performed both of them. Using your logic, they won't make the team.

 

And a lot of chatter about Easley and Barden? From where? TBD? The same place that wants to cut Stevie, draft 7 QB's this year, and trade a franchise tagged Byrd for 2 first round picks? Uh oh, Graham should be worried.

 

Don't accuse yourself of using my logic. You are failing miserably at that. Twice now in fact.

 

I could could easily see Marcus making the roster over TJ due to ST.

 

Pay attention here....

 

Kaufman, Roberson, Barden, Elliot... They are all big, some really big and some fast... That is the queue of developmental WRs. Ask yourself what sets these guys apart from the current WRs on the team. Big targets? Since we know woods is on of the outside guys, what are they chasing with all these 6'3" or better guys?

 

Maybe a nice big target outside? (This is application of logic, by the way)

 

Bills could Draft a WR, which will be kept. Anoth spot lost.

 

TJ's role isn't going to be special team ace, slot receiver depth is SJ, the Hogan . TJ hasn't been put back there as a PR, KR or gunner.

 

Tj has demonstrated he is a one dimensional player playing the speedy outside WR, for which there is a better option and he is competing for 1 maybe two spots against relative huge targets with no proven ST benefit.

 

Logic dictates TJ stands on the flimsiest bubble of his career.

 

 

 

Game speed is totally different with the rare exception of a go route where the receiver isn't jammed by the defender and they just run a straight line.

 

TJ Graham might be good on the Patriots or the Colts, where you have very accurate QB's hitting little guys on the money. We certainly don't have that kind of accuracy in our qb's and neither do most teams.

 

Goodwin has shown himself to have more tenacity and better hands. He's a solid football player and he has ball skills (adjustment to the pass, feeling the defender and using body position to ensure he gets the ball or nobody gets it)

 

I think they will keep TJ this year but he'll back up Goodwin all season. We only need one speedster.

Yes! As we learned from Lee Evans, one dimensional speedsters that can run under the ball and catch it are great weapons in the arsenal. But you only need 1. In my eyes TJ and Goodwin are competing for that spot, and Goodwin wins.(also returns kicks)

[mountainwampus]

It's not a coincidence that 50% of passes to TJ are bad. He doesn't run routes properly and doesn't look for the ball. 3rd and 8? He runs a 15 yard curl, ball at feet. Wide open on a crossing route? He doesn't even look at qb, engages the MLB instead. Deep passes? He doesn't see them coming unless they hit him in the hands. Or else he'll run so close to the sideline the pass sails OB. Has no ability to keep feet in bounds near sidelines. And so many mental mistakes. Remember EJ's intentional grounding in the corner of endzone, TJ and Easley ran conflicting routes? Marrone confirmed that Easley ran the right route. Losing to the pats because he runs wrong route to let them pick off Fitz. False starts. Can't handle his only kick return attempt. Fumble 6 vs KC. 3 weeks straight with 0 targets even though he was starting and getting thrown to, resuting in many INTs. He made Russell Wilson look like garbage in college. Made Fitz look like a joke. Making EJ a bust.

[FireChan]

 

 

Don't accuse yourself of using my logic. You are failing miserably at that. Twice now in fact.

 

I could could easily see Marcus making the roster over TJ due to ST.

 

Pay attention here....

 

Kaufman, Roberson, Barden, Elliot... They are all big, some really big and some fast... That is the queue of developmental WRs. Ask yourself what sets these guys apart from the current WRs on the team. Big targets? Since we know woods is on of the outside guys, what are they chasing with all these 6'3" or better guys?

 

Maybe a nice big target outside? (This is application of logic, by the way)

 

Bills could Draft a WR, which will be kept. Anoth spot lost.

 

TJ's role isn't going to be special team ace, slot receiver depth is SJ, the Hogan . TJ hasn't been put back there as a PR, KR or gunner.

 

Tj has demonstrated he is a one dimensional player playing the speedy outside WR, for which there is a better option and he is competing for 1 maybe two spots against relative huge targets with no proven ST benefit.

 

Logic dictates TJ stands on the flimsiest bubble of his career.

 

 

Yes! As we learned from Lee Evans, one dimensional speedsters that can run under the ball and catch it are great weapons in the arsenal. But you only need 1. In my eyes TJ and Goodwin are competing for that spot, and Goodwin wins.(also returns kicks)

 

Sorry, you said, "Goodwin had better numbers last year, I don't expect Graham to make the roster."

 

Hard to understand your logic when you expect me to read your mind.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

 

Sorry, you said, "Goodwin had better numbers last year, I don't expect Graham to make the roster."

 

Hard to understand your logic when you expect me to read your mind.

 

Apology accepted. You assumed my logic, but never asked specifically why I stated I don't expect TJ to make the team, just conflated two separate statements into a "therefore" logic statement.

 

What you quoted, and presumably read is not what I wrote.

 

This would be closer.

 

"Goodwin had better numbers last year."

 

Also

 

" I don't expect Graham to make the roster."

 

Anyway- I could care less how it ends up as long as they are better, I would love TJG to become a stud WR, I simply have nothing to found a hope like that on, excepting some college highlight reel stuff now over 3 years old. Based on what I have seen I expect to see him off the 53 man roster. And yes my primary cause for that is the one niche role he could occupy for the team has a better candidate for it.

Edited February 23, 2014 by over 20 years of fanhood

[Sumin]

The Bills are definitely looking to acquire an outside target in this draft, a #1 as some prefer to call it but personally I will not use that term since WRs move around quite a bit.

 

Stevie, draft choice, Woods and Goodwin will be primary targets. Then you have two WRs to round out the roster with some developmental attributes. They would have to be excellent special teamers.

 

I have little doubt that Easley will be on this team because of his sharp special teams play. That delegates Graham to the "#5" spot. However, Graham will be competing with other training camp prospects who also could be good at special teams who may offer more in actual WR play.

 

I think the Bills really liked Kevin Elliott last year in camp and I did too. I'd like for one of these guys to outshine Graham, whether it is Elliot, Barden, Kaufman.... They already have speed so Graham has to distinguish himself, which he has not. Goodwin may not be as experienced but he has done far more than Graham and really provides a threat which I for the most part have not seen from Graham.

 

Let's hypothetically say Graham does not cut it and Elliott does. Then the Bills have three "big" WRs in Elliott, Easley and the draft pick and three "smaller" guys in Woods, Goodwin, and Stevie.

 

This, in my opinion, would greatly improve the WR core. There is no reason why we should have guys like Hogan or Graham on this roster unless there is nobody better out there. We already have skilled possession receivers in Woods and Stevie. While they are extremely valuable, your receiving core cannot be all possession receivers.

[FireChan]

The Bills are definitely looking to acquire an outside target in this draft, a #1 as some prefer to call it but personally I will not use that term since WRs move around quite a bit.

 

Stevie, draft choice, Woods and Goodwin will be primary targets. Then you have two WRs to round out the roster with some developmental attributes. They would have to be excellent special teamers.

 

I have little doubt that Easley will be on this team because of his sharp special teams play. That delegates Graham to the "#5" spot. However, Graham will be competing with other training camp prospects who also could be good at special teams who may offer more in actual WR play.

 

I think the Bills really liked Kevin Elliott last year in camp and I did too. I'd like for one of these guys to outshine Graham, whether it is Elliot, Barden, Kaufman.... They already have speed so Graham has to distinguish himself, which he has not. Goodwin may not be as experienced but he has done far more than Graham and really provides a threat which I for the most part have not seen from Graham.

 

Let's hypothetically say Graham does not cut it and Elliott does. Then the Bills have three "big" WRs in Elliott, Easley and the draft pick and three "smaller" guys in Woods, Goodwin, and Stevie.

 

This, in my opinion, would greatly improve the WR core. There is no reason why we should have guys like Hogan or Graham on this roster unless there is nobody better out there. We already have skilled possession receivers in Woods and Stevie. While they are extremely valuable, your receiving core cannot be all possession receivers.

 

I would disagree that Goodwin has far outplayed Graham. If you look at the numbers, it's far closer than you think. Goodwin also got hurt multiple times this year.

[Proteus]

Graham freaking blows! He made several game changing bad plays last year and I don't think has caught one NFL pass while taking even the slightest contact. Please end this discussion, he sucks!