The Ukraine is Weak

[Deranged Rhino]

Iraq has absolutely no relevance to the current situation in Ukraine...

 

Look into the propaganda being churned out in Russia about this current situation and say that again with a straight face. The spin over there is essentially that right wing fanatics have seized power in Kiev and the west (especially the US) does not understand the situation. Referenced in the majority of those articles / talking points / GRU or FSB propaganda is the US's recent blunders in the Middle East.

 

Don't make the mistake of thinking that's me agreeing with that assessment, but it's a steady drum being beat by the propaganda machine on the ground over there. And, it is a difficult claim to dispute because the war was sold internationally on WMD that turned out weren't there. I have the benefit of living here and working (largely) abroad so I come into contact with more Europeans and Russians than the average Joe and you'd be surprised how genuinely smart and progressive (in Russian terms) people are falling for the spin. Putin is presenting a case that we are misreading the situation there as badly as we misread the situation in Iraq. That keeps the moderates and progressives in line, or at least in doubt.

 

That may not mean much, and I'm in no way claiming that Iraq is the primary reason (or even a reason at all) for Putin going into Crimea. But what it does do is limit our responses as a nation. Had we found WMD in Iraq, it would make it easier for the United States as a whole to present a united front and make its case against Putin -- one he'd have a harder time denying to his own people. Sanctions or whatever other remedies we employ in response will only work if there's internal pressure from the Russian people and despite your claim to the contrary, our recent track record as a nation is not what it once was and that has an impact on this situation.

 

But it's not a cause ... not a big one at least.

Edited March 8, 2014 by GreggyT

[DC Tom]

Look into the propaganda being churned out in Russia about this current situation and say that again with a straight face. The spin over there is essentially that right wing fanatics have seized power in Kiev and the west (especially the US) does not understand the situation. Referenced in the majority of those articles / talking points / GRU or FSB propaganda is the US's recent blunders in the Middle East.

 

Don't make the mistake of thinking that's me agreeing with that assessment, but it's a steady drum being beat by the propaganda machine on the ground over there. And, it is a difficult claim to dispute because the war was sold internationally on WMD that turned out weren't there. I have the benefit of living here and working (largely) abroad so I come into contact with more Europeans and Russians than the average Joe and you'd be surprised how genuinely smart and progressive (in Russian terms) people are falling for the spin. Putin is presenting a case that we are misreading the situation there as badly as we misread the situation in Iraq. That keeps the moderates and progressives in line, or at least in doubt.

 

That may not mean much, and I'm in no way claiming that Iraq is the primary reason (or even a reason at all) for Putin going into Crimea. But what it does do is limit our responses as a nation. Had we found WMD in Iraq, it would make it easier for the United States as a whole to present a united front and make its case against Putin -- one he'd have a harder time denying to his own people. Sanctions or whatever other remedies we employ in response will only work if there's internal pressure from the Russian people and despite your claim to the contrary, our recent track record as a nation is not what it once was and that has an impact on this situation.

 

But it's not a cause ... not a big one at least.

 

Sounds far less like a reason than an ex post facto justification.

 

The reasons are simple: money (natural gas, in this case), basing rights, and influence in Anatolia and the Levant. That hasn't changed for maybe 200-300 years.

[DC Tom]

You want more examples? Sure. How about stalling any sort of progress to export oil & gas to counter Russia's gas deliveries to Europe? How about letting Putin run roughshod over Kyrgyztan over that backwards country hosting a major AF base? How about standing down on any major geopolitical issue over the last 5 years? How about vacillating during Arab Spring and letting a crooked, but trusted old ally to fall to a mob? Don't you think other despots take notice? Should we use Iran as an example? Syria? Saudi Arabia and Israel distancing themselves?

 

Here's a telling little bit of trivia no one's ever heard: the FY2012 NDAA included provisions for normalizing defense cooperation with Georgia, including providing them with modern "defensive" weapons.

 

When Obama signed it, the signing statement included a statement that that provision, and several others, would be considered non-binding, as it interfered with his authority to set foreign policy direction with Russia.

[GG]

The main fault with your premise is that you may actually believe that Putin cares about world opinion. You're talking about a man who very likely killed his own citizens to promote his agenda. The Moscow apartment bombings, the Moscow theater deaths, Beslan children massacre, Don't think for a second those weren't part of a propaganda machine that's been primed since 1917. And you fall for the prey that the ordinary Russians do as well. You're talking about a country where a significant % favor the return of czarist rule.

 

It's too easy for me to call them ignorant. The proper term is unworldly. Most of them don't understand freedom. It has never been in their culture. Why do you think that Putin's first actions as head of state were to strip away any source of independent media? Yet you bring Russian propaganda as a reason why people are aligning with the invasion and are fearful of the US? Of course they will. Sheep follow the shepherd. This is textbook Gromyko tactics. PPutin knows nothing else.

 

But it would be nice if people in the west recognize for what he is, not for what they think he is.

[Deranged Rhino]

Sounds far less like a reason than an ex post facto justification.

 

The reasons are simple: money (natural gas, in this case), basing rights, and influence in Anatolia and the Levant. That hasn't changed for maybe 200-300 years.

It most certainly is a justification. Not an accurate one by any stretch, but Putin's counting on the average European / Russian not having enough information to make the distinction.

 

The main fault with your premise is that you may actually believe that Putin cares about world opinion.

For the record, and it may not have been clear in which case I do apologize, I do not believe Putin cares about world opinion in the least. I'm under no illusion as to who Putin is and what he stands for. But you must admit there is a distinction between not caring about world opinion and not understanding the power of controlling the message. He has extensive training from perhaps the best organization the world has ever known for doing just that.

 

We're quarreling now over a matter of degrees though for some reason you fail to see it. I don't disagree with your earlier assessment of the Obama administrations failures, I decried them at the time they happened (well, the ones I knew about, I did not know about all of them while they happened and learned of one from your post -- thanks for that by the way). And I am not trying to argue that public opinion is the end-all-be-all weapon in international diplomacy. What I am saying is that it's a factor that you cannot simply dismiss. History has shown that having public support or the moral high ground on the international stage can be a powerful weapon when wielded by the United States for just causes -- as it has been for the overwhelming majority of our country's history. But in the times we are living in, that image has been tarnished and is right this very moment being used against our interests by Putin. That's not a theory, that's happening.

 

It's an arrow in his quiver and he's using it because he knows we cannot dispute the facts, only quibble over the details.

 

You're talking about a man who very likely killed his own citizens to promote his agenda. The Moscow apartment bombings, the Moscow theater deaths, Beslan children massacre, Don't think for a second those weren't part of a propaganda machine that's been primed since 1917. And you fall for the prey that the ordinary Russians do as well.

 

Again, I'm not falling for any of it. No where in my posts have I once said otherwise.

 

You're talking about a country where a significant % favor the return of czarist rule.

 

It's too easy for me to call them ignorant. The proper term is unworldly. Most of them don't understand freedom. It has never been in their culture. Why do you think that Putin's first actions as head of state were to strip away any source of independent media? Yet you bring Russian propaganda as a reason why people are aligning with the invasion and are fearful of the US? Of course they will. Sheep follow the shepherd. This is textbook Gromyko tactics. PPutin knows nothing else.

 

But it would be nice if people in the west recognize for what he is, not for what they think he is.

 

I for one am not willing to speak for an entire people as an outsider, I mean I'm not that much of a pretentious ass -- apparently you are and that's okay. But based on my own, everyday interactions with Russians I could not disagree more with this bit of your rant. Admittedly, I have a small window into the country, but that's a pretty bold statement.

 

Though, be honest, you have to admit it's kinda ironic that in an effort to illustrate how outraged you are at someone having the common sense to point out that propaganda is a powerful tool, you end up throwing back propaganda from the other side of the spectrum.

 

It's well done ass-hole-ery, so you should take a bow.

Edited March 8, 2014 by GreggyT

[Joe Miner]

It most certainly is a justification. Not an accurate one by any stretch, but Putin's counting on the average European / Russian not having enough information to make the distinction.

 

 

For the record, and it may not have been clear in which case I do apologize, I do not believe Putin cares about world opinion in the least. I'm under no illusion as to who Putin is and what he stands for. But you must admit there is a distinction between not caring about world opinion and not understanding the power of controlling the message. He has extensive training from perhaps the best organization the world has ever known for doing just that.

 

We're quarreling now over a matter of degrees though for some reason you fail to see it. I don't disagree with your earlier assessment of the Obama administrations failures, I decried them at the time they happened (well, the ones I knew about, I did not know about all of them while they happened and learned of one from your post -- thanks for that by the way). And I am not trying to argue that public opinion is the end-all-be-all weapon in international diplomacy. What I am saying is that it's a factor that you cannot simply dismiss. History has shown that having public support or the moral high ground on the international stage can be a powerful weapon when wielded by the United States for just causes -- as it has been for the overwhelming majority of our country's history. But in the times we are living in, that image has been tarnished and is right this very moment being used against our interests by Putin. That's not a theory, that's happening.

 

It's an arrow in his quiver and he's using it because he knows we cannot dispute the facts, only quibble over the details.

 

 

 

Again, I'm not falling for any of it. No where in my posts have I once said otherwise.

 

 

 

I for one am not willing to speak for an entire people as an outsider, I mean I'm not that much of a pretentious ass -- apparently you are and that's okay. But based on my own, everyday interactions with Russians I could not disagree more with this bit of your rant. Admittedly, I have a small window into the country, but that's a pretty bold statement.

 

Though, be honest, you have to admit it's kinda ironic that in an effort to illustrate how outraged you are at someone having the common sense to point out that propaganda is a powerful tool, you end up throwing back propaganda from the other side of the spectrum.

 

It's well done ass-hole-ery, so you should take a bow.

 

You're just plain wrong.

 

The situation and Obama's (mis)handling of it have absolutely nothing to do with Bush.

 

Propaganda is not the cause of this mess, nor is it any reason that dictates Obama's actions.

[3rdnlng]

http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/2014/03/07/chickens-roosting-in-the-crimea/?subscriber=1

 

This past week, after pledging to cut the American military to pre-World War II levels, our unserious secretary of defense claimed effects from climate change are "threat multipliers." Integrating openly gay soldiers and placing women in frontline combat positions are greater priorities for the Obama Administration than winning wars.

While Obama and his unserious advisors in a western world, grown too unserious about reality, focus on unserious topics, other nations of the world continue to jockey for national interest and Kremlin tanks continue pouring into Ukraine.

Until last week, we lived in a world where the West had grown comfortable that Francis Fukuyama was right and history had ended. Events would still happen, but the world would inevitably evolve toward liberal democracy. We all learned in college that liberal democracies were more stable and least prone to violence of all forms of government. Barack Obama, the British prime minister, the French president, and the rest of the West could sit around tables fretting about the environment, income inequality, unisex bathrooms, gay marriage and other issues. The West had concluded there were no longer national interests, but global interests where we would all win or all lose together.

It is the foreign policy view of the naive elite in comfortable times detached from the real world. The Aspen and Davos sets can tut-tut at world events, but their worldview and foreign policy have brought us to this point. That worldview both fostered and fed off of an unserious foreign policy press and analytical corps that saw the world through global issues and global interests.

[Tiberius]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/in-crimea-interim-government-says-it-has-no-plans-to-cede-to-russia/2014/03/08/df1261d0-a6c3-11e3-9cff-b1406de784f0_story.html

 

 

Oh why wouldn't anyone want us involved in this mess??

 

 

“Crimea is and will be Ukrainian territory, and we will not give up Crimea to anyone,” said Ukraine’s acting foreign minister, Andriy Deshchytsia, in a Saturday news conference in Kiev.

 

Of the upcoming referendum, Deshchytsia said, “It is illegitimate and will not have any legal implications for Crimea, for Ukraine, as well as for the international community.”

 

In Moscow, Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the interim Ukrainian government was beholden to extremists of the Right Sektor, a Ukrainian group that grew out of the uprising.

 

“Effectively there is no state control whatsoever over public order and the music is ordered by the so-called Right Sektor, which operates with methods of terror and intimidation,” Lavrov said.

 

“Already threats are heard not only against officials in Kiev and other Ukrainian regions, but against the heads of the Russian region’s neighboring Ukraine, as well,” he added, referring to threats e-mailed to four Russian governors, allegedly from Ukrainian radicals.

 

Lavrov said European diplomats had not kept a promise made to Russia last month that radical nationalists would not be involved in governing Ukraine. Dmitro Yarosh, the leader of Right Sektor, has announced he will run for president in elections scheduled for May. Russians accuse him of inciting terrorism and have put him on an international wanted list.

 

In Crimea, pro-Russian groups describing themselves as local self-defense units have started patrolling neighborhoods and campaigning for next week’s election. The cities are mostly calm, with residents going about their lives. Things are more tense, though, around the naval and air bases on the edges and outskirts of town.

 

Late Friday night, a pro-Russia militia tried to attack a Ukrainian air base outside Sevastopol. Though it remains unclear exactly what happened, a truck with Russian license plates rammed the front gate while the militiamen demanded the Ukrainians hand over their weapons, according to the BBC. The incident ended without a shot being fired.

 

Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel telephoned Ukraine’s defense minister earlier Friday to stress “the firm commitment of the United States” to support Ukraine, and to praise “the performance and the restraint [of] the Ukrainian armed forces, who have not allowed this situation to escalate,” Pentagon spokesman Rear Adm. John F. Kirby said.

 

Kirby confirmed that aircraft would be sent to Poland to “plus-up” an existing U.S. aviation attachment based in Poland, but said decisions on numbers and timing have not been made. The Defense Department sent six F-15 fighter jets to Lithuania this week after Baltic nations requested additional defense assets as part of an existing air patrol mission.

 

Kirby also clarified that the USS Truxtun, a guided-missile destroyer, was in the Black Sea as part of a routine deployment scheduled before the upheaval in Ukraine.

 

Asked about the number of Russian troops in Crimea, he put the total at “near 20,000,” including up to 6,000 that have been newly deployed, in addition to those already stationed at Russian bases in the Ukrainian region. Russia has denied sending any additional troops to Crimea.

 

Also on Friday, President Obama spoke with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, and they “agreed on the need for Russia to pull back its forces, allow for the deployment of international observers and human rights monitors to Crimea, and support free and fair presidential elections in May,” the White House said in

 

[Chef Jim]

http://www.washingto...84f0_story.html

Also on Friday, President Obama spoke with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, and they "agreed on the need for Russia to pull back its forces, allow for the deployment of international observers and human rights monitors to Crimea, and support free and fair presidential elections in May," the White House said in

 

So they agreed on a need.

[Tiberius]

 

 

 

So they agreed on a need.

 

It will be nice if all this can be talked away and a solution found short of some sort of civil war. Anyone that knows the history of Northern Ireland, Palestein--sorry Zionists--or Cyprus Knows these things don't lend themselves easily to rational solutions

[Deranged Rhino]

You're just plain wrong.

 

The situation and Obama's (mis)handling of it have absolutely nothing to do with Bush.

 

Propaganda is not the cause of this mess, nor is it any reason that dictates Obama's actions.

The best part of your post is the part where you say I said things I didn't say.

[Nanker]

Here's Obama's foreign policy: Have a mindless good time and then improvise in tight situations. Then ask the sober audience, "What would YOU do now?"

 

[B-Man]

A fresh look at what has happened.

 

 

Ukraine: Barack Obama and the West are weakened by a fatal narcissism

Telegraph [uK], by Janet Daley

 

FTA:

Barack Obama, obviously stung by the terrible press he received over his great dither on Syria, has made marginally more concrete moves on the Ukraine crisis than the EU (which isn’t saying very much). But it clearly runs against his inclinations. He is not there to fight foreign enemies – even with economic weapons. He is there to cure poverty at home and to offer a better health-care system to Americans.

 

Well, you might say, nothing wrong with that. If the West has decided to beat its swords into ploughshares and spend all its wealth on caring for its own people, then the world will be a better and more peaceful place. Or will it? Isn’t there something terribly inward-looking and debilitating about this idea of government as purely a social services provider? Especially when those social interventions begin to take over the functions which once belonged in the family or the community?

 

Yes.......................................more at link: Original Article

 

 

 

 

[dayman]

60 Minutes had a tour of the ousted President Yanukovych's little palace he built. Pretty nice, diamond crusted elevator doors for some reason.

 

They also threw in an endorsement for Vitali Klitschko for president of Ukraine haha

[Joe Miner]

The best part of your post is the part where you say I said things I didn't say.

 

Odd that a writer can't read.

[3rdnlng]

60 Minutes had a tour of the ousted President Yanukovych's little palace he built. Pretty nice, diamond crusted elevator doors for some reason.

 

They also threw in an endorsement for Vitali Klitschko for president of Ukraine haha

 

How is this germain to the crisis at hand? Pretty soon you will have to start posting something that doesn't appear to be out of "People" magazine or you'll be thrown in with the lyrbob/gator cabal.

Edited March 10, 2014 by 3rdnlng

[Maury Ballstein]

Germane man. Germain is the obsolete form of Germane. Germaine is a lady who lives in France.

 

When you use fancy words. You have to spell them right.

 

Might have to confiscate that Captain Spellchecker title from you. Standards ya know.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Ryan L Billz

[3rdnlng]

Germane man. Germain is the obsolete form of Germane. Germaine is a lady who lives in France.

 

When you use fancy words. You have to spell them right.

 

Might have to confiscate that Captain Spellchecker title from you. Standards ya know.

 

So, you now feel confident enough to post in threads that aren't about weed or other illegal drugs? Let's see how this goes. What's your (not you're) take on the Ukraine crisis? Please be specific.

[Maury Ballstein]

Wow, I smack you around all day long and you still talk the same nonsense that got you there?

 

Go ahead and apologize for your earlier transgression then we can talk Ukraine tommorow.

 

Keep bringing up weed as it's the only sad little bullet left in your gun. Drag it to every thread, you're good at being a 12 year old.

 

Might even have to throw the old ignore on you. I was holding out hope for you but it's looking like a waste of time. I know nothing of hard or illegal drugs. I've smoked pot before, big freakin deal. Grow up gramps.

 

Dolt city....population you.

 

If you watch any of the videos I have linked over the past few pages you can see what is occurring in Crimea.

 

What aspect of Ukraine concerns you the most ? I think it will be interesting to see what happens if Vitali Klitchko takes over soon (alleged non corrupt savior) He was kinda blindsided by the fact Yulia Timoshenkos back on the scene and could steal away his impending rise to leader of Ukraine.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Ryan L Billz

[DC Tom]

Dolt city....population you.

 

Quick! Hit him with "I know you are but what am I?" before he gets up!