Kirby Jackson Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 THAT is all logical. But that has not been the discussion around here. It's generally been "(Player X) sucks! Cut his ass!" I'm not suggesting that we overpay mediocre players. But rather work from an interest of building a good team with good depth as a starting point. You allocate what you are willing to pay certain players to stay, and if they demand more, you look into other options. But the general discussion around here is generally from the starting point of removing said player, period. To me, that is counterproductive and creates more holes than anything. Regarding Hughes, I'm not comfortable shipping him off for a draft pick, not when he provides a service we need (pass rush on the opposite side of Mario). If we happen to sign someone who can do that during FA, then sure, ship him off. But just saying "oh, he might leave next year, so we should get a draft pick for him now" is essentially throwing away productivity this season. I don't disagree with any of that; the pitchfork mentality is ridiculous. I know that I have been guilty of it at times but I try to base my decisions on what I posted above. I did not want to see Levitre go (especially if I knew that the position would go unmanned). With that being said I understood and if they signed someone like Brandon Moore (who I thought was the target) for a 1 year $4M deal I think that it would have been a good decision to let Levitre go. It is a balance for sure but the "this guy is great sign him forever" and the "this guy sucks cut him now" arguments just don't really occur in front offices. Decisions are made objectively, not emotionally. That is one of the toughest things for fans to grasp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattsox Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I think the situation on Byrd and Chandler is different. Their contracts are up and it's the question of their value in terms of what it would take to retain them. You don't build successful teams in this era of the NFL just saying "he's a quality player, pay him whatever" you just dig yourself a salary cap hole. You have to take a view on what value the guy has to your organisation and whether he is a priority player in a priority position. The others I totally agree with you on. I'm not sure why when there is the possibility of losing good quality players through so many means in the modern NFL our fan base is keen to given away others that we have under contract. I think this "Salary cap hole" is just an excuse. There are ways to make it work without getting into salary cap problems. Good upstairs people should be able to figure that out. Now, I for one want to keep all the good players we can keep. Byrd especially. He should be signed long term. If he's not, than that is a very telling fact, that the Bills are pretty much insincere on every building a winning team here. Bottom line. You gotta pay your football players and you got to bring new players in here. You don't stop at Mario Williams. You keep looking for the best talent and keep adding. Some players may not be worth it. But you have to keep looking. PS. Any nonsense about Trading or cutting Dareus and Spiller is foolish speak to me. I have no idea why you'd even entertain the thought. My opinion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 That is kind of the dilemma. How much can you allocate to someone like Chandler to be a number 2 and still pay a number 1 (or even other positions)? It is tricky. Are you better off drafting a TE like ASJ in the 2nd and pairing him with Moeaki and Gragg then spending the $2M on Chandler? Would that same $2M be better spent on a starting LG? Each decision has to be made independently (ie "is Chandler worth X") but with the grand scheme in mind (ie "if we do not spend X on Chandler that would allow us to spend Y on whoever). This is all done without even factoring in which decisions will be coming up the following year and so on. That is the JerrY Hughes discussion. If Hughes has 10+ sacks again next year the Bills will not be able to pay both Hughes and Mario the market rate for 10+ sack guys. So what do you do? There are always tough decisions to make. The point is that no one ever wants to run good players out of town but you have to make decisions sometimes that you think are necessary for long term success. This x 1,000,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) I think this "Salary cap hole" is just an excuse. There are ways to make it work without getting into salary cap problems. Good upstairs people should be able to figure that out. Now, I for one want to keep all the good players we can keep. Byrd especially. He should be signed long term. If he's not, than that is a very telling fact, that the Bills are pretty much insincere on every building a winning team here. Bottom line. You gotta pay your football players and you got to bring new players in here. You don't stop at Mario Williams. You keep looking for the best talent and keep adding. Some players may not be worth it. But you have to keep looking. PS. Any nonsense about Trading or cutting Dareus and Spiller is foolish speak to me. I have no idea why you'd even entertain the thought. My opinion! I think saying that "good upstairs people" can figure out salary cap issues is a convenient excuse to help people justify the personnel decisions that they'd like to see the team make. Salary cap isn't something that can be swept under the rug. Every move has dependencies and ramifications on every other move you can make, and it all has to work long-term under the context of the salary cap. I of course agree that we need to keep as many good players as we can, but always with the caveat that it has to make sense with the overall plan. I also don't believe you can isolate a single decision (about Byrd....albeit a big decision) and claim that if it doesn't go the way you want, then it must mean the Bills don't care about building a winning team. That's just ridiculous. This isn't a personal attack at you...more like a strong difference of opinion...so I hope it doesn't come off that way. I want the Bills to win as badly as you do. It can be really difficult as fans when we don't truly have insight into a team's plans, and when you lose all the time, every single move is going to be painstakingly scrutinized -- which is why we're currently in this offseason topic hell. (For the record, I'd like to see the Bills re-sign Byrd long-term, even if it means Top 5 safety money) Edited February 18, 2014 by Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBuff423 Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I think this "Salary cap hole" is just an excuse. There are ways to make it work without getting into salary cap problems. Good upstairs people should be able to figure that out. Now, I for one want to keep all the good players we can keep. Byrd especially. He should be signed long term. If he's not, than that is a very telling fact, that the Bills are pretty much insincere on every building a winning team here. Bottom line. You gotta pay your football players and you got to bring new players in here. You don't stop at Mario Williams. You keep looking for the best talent and keep adding. Some players may not be worth it. But you have to keep looking. PS. Any nonsense about Trading or cutting Dareus and Spiller is foolish speak to me. I have no idea why you'd even entertain the thought. My opinion! Ok, but truthfully just saying "work it out" isn't a solution....look at the Saints and Lions last week, they both cut high priced players that while contributed to the general talent and productivity of the team, could NOT be kept at their current price tag....so, they had to let them go. Both teams would have been significantly over the cap had they not out-right released those players...how many times (other than Fitz) have the BILLS gone to a player and asked them to re-structure, that WE know about?? I can't think of any...I've heard KW volunteer that to keep the team with good talent, but I've not heard reports about the BILLS going to a player and asking for re-structuring of their current contract...I think that's because the BILLS believe if they make a contract with a player, they want to own that contract for the duration and not get into the constant juggling arena of re-structuring and releasing players that *ARE* under contract simply because they can no longer afford to keep them. The great teams do this...they get players and keep players at different positions based on their *POSITION'S* VALUE and not the individual....where do the best teams invest their money?? How do they spend their money in regards to the cap?? I for one am not for paying Super Mario the money he got from the BILLS any more because I think you would be hard-pressed to argue that you can't find another player at half that salary that could produce very similar if not same results...as for Byrd, as I mentioned in earlier post, it's all about reasonableness of what he's asking / demanding.... I think saying that "good upstairs people" can figure out salary cap issues is a convenient excuse to help people justify the personnel decisions that they'd like to see the team make. Salary cap isn't something that can be swept under the rug. Every move has dependencies and ramifications on every other move you can make, and it all has to work long-term under the context of the salary cap. I of course agree that we need to keep as many good players as we can, but always with the caveat that it has to make sense with the overall plan. I also don't believe you can isolate a single decision (about Byrd....albeit a big decision) and claim that if it doesn't go the way you want, then it must mean the Bills don't care about building a winning team. That's just ridiculous. This isn't a personal attack at you...more like a strong difference of opinion...so I hope it doesn't come off that way. I want the Bills to win as badly as you do. It can be really difficult as fans when we don't truly have insight into a team's plans, and when you lose all the time, every single move is going to be painstakingly scrutinized -- which is why we're currently in this offseason topic hell. (For the record, I'd like to see the Bills re-sign Byrd long-term, even if it means Top 5 safety money) ^^This.... P.S. - if the BILLS really weren't invested in being a winning team, why would they pay Super Mario, Super Money to be a slightly above average player?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 ...why? I don't understand our fanbase. We seem to want to get rid of Stevie, CJ, Chandler, Hughes, Dareus and Byrd. These guys are all quality NFL starters. We don't have the talent on the roster to replace them. And replacing them via FA/the draft would be near impossible. Why are we so quick to start rebuilding while rebuilding? Why not keep talented players and add more talented players? Why not add depth and quality rotation? Am I missing something here? The Byrd thing is a different animal , in this age of free agency your not going to be able to every player that you want due to agents trying to get way over the top contracts . I would love to see Byrd stay b/c he is a great player but at what cost ? We have a guy that can do OK as a starter & if their is a guy in the draft that shows great potential as a FS then why spend that kind of money, the Patriots let great players go all the time & bring others in to replace them & have done it & been in the post season for the last decade so it can be done ! Then there is the given if you can get a younger talent in the first round like E. Ebron that you can bring in to be a immediate up grade at the TE position & Chandler is looking for to much money then once again if you can get a guy that has more up side & a longer shelf life that can help the team then you have to do it to stay competitive . Bottom line ... Some you ned to keep but as time goes on there may be circumstances that change these situations & a good GM along with his scouts & a front office that believes & backs him in the direction that he is going can do wonders for the team !! But the team only goes as the far as the GM & the coaching staff can take them . Which that ain't saying much for our last 13 years in B/Lo !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Ok, but truthfully just saying "work it out" isn't a solution....look at the Saints and Lions last week, they both cut high priced players that while contributed to the general talent and productivity of the team, could NOT be kept at their current price tag....so, they had to let them go. That was going to be my response too. I know the Bills have got a decent amount of cap space at the moment but they also have a lot of important players still playing on rookie contracts. They are going to have to renegotiate with these guys in the next couple of years so they have to forward manage the cap to some extent. Now I don't claim to be an expert on these things but that undoubtedly has an impact on how much they can overpay on Byrd. I'd be willing to overpay to keep him and I think the front office are too.... it's how much are you willing to overpay? Somewhere there has to be a line. I want Jarius to stay as much as the next guy by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Linen Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Team depth has been a perpetual issue for this team going back to the Donahoe era, if not before. I don't expect in the salary cap era to have depth at every position, but whenever the Bills lose a starter they scramble to find an option. There wasn't much OL depth last year, their 3rd CB was a rookie UDFA, there wasn't much at LB beyond rookie Alonso and Lawson, the backup QB's were a journeyman and rookie UDFA, and the WR's were a mix of rookie and unproven types. Only the DL qualifies as having decent proven depth, the result of signing Branch. And now they may leave the UFA period with Aaron Williams, Duke Williams, Da'Norris Searcy, and Jonathan Meeks as their safeties. There needs to be a culture change and that means drafting better and keeping your essential talent locked up. Depth in today's NFL is a myth or an accident that will soon correct itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Section242 Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 The Byrd thing is a different animal , in this age of free agency your not going to be able to every player that you want due to agents trying to get way over the top contracts . I would love to see Byrd stay b/c he is a great player but at what cost ? We have a guy that can do OK as a starter & if their is a guy in the draft that shows great potential as a FS then why spend that kind of money, the Patriots let great players go all the time & bring others in to replace them & have done it & been in the post season for the last decade so it can be done ! Then there is the given if you can get a younger talent in the first round like E. Ebron that you can bring in to be a immediate up grade at the TE position & Chandler is looking for to much money then once again if you can get a guy that has more up side & a longer shelf life that can help the team then you have to do it to stay competitive . Bottom line ... Some you ned to keep but as time goes on there may be circumstances that change these situations & a good GM along with his scouts & a front office that believes & backs him in the direction that he is going can do wonders for the team !! But the team only goes as the far as the GM & the coaching staff can take them . Which that ain't saying much for our last 13 years in B/Lo !! The Patriots let guys go past their prime. Once the Bills get a HOF QB they can let guys go and it won't matter much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxer Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Until you find your franchise QB you can spend to the cap and keep the good players, some by overspending a little. Help the young QB (whoever that might be) by building the best squad you can. If you find your franchise QB you can then relax and be competitive with an average roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsgpr88 Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I generally agree but it also depends on the value each of these guys has and if you can resign them to huge contracts or decent ones. Personally on Byrd, pay the man to be the highest paid safety in the league. He's worth it. He's still getting better. Chandler, it all depends on what he's asking for. With the available TEs in FA this year, he's likely looking to be the most sought after target at his position and will be asking for top 15 money or better. Hughes, sure, he played great but he was limited. I'd rather take a 3rd with conditional picks for him and draft someone that's a 3 down LB. Spiller, sure, he's good. Could be better but for some reason he's not. In another year he will be demanding top 5 money for a RB. Do you want to pay a RB that kind of cash or would you rather trade him for what should/could be a 1st or 2nd and get an every down back? That's what I'd do. Another Fred Jackson type of back or maybe bigger and more physical. Like a Lagarret Blount. I don't get the hate for Dareus. He's up and coming and still under contract. Is he great as a DT? No. The run defense sucks and he's definitely a part of that, but yes good and young and going to get better. this... And I also like your drawring, I do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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