Stevie Johnson should be dealt addition by subtraction

[BillsVet]

I agree this has been the bills problem for years. You don't get ride of a guy before you have a replacement who is better or equal. People do not be stupid and make snap decisions. What can we get out of stevie? Is what we get worth it? I would say we get a third round pick at best and a third round pick WR is not as good as him. KEEP HIM UNTIL YOU HAVE A BETTER OPTION

 

Still not seeing how getting rid of SJ and/or Byrd helps this team for 2014. It's playoffs or bust and right now they don't, as you point out, have a better option. Marrone has some talented players that he needs to work with, not get rid of because they aren't exactly his type of player.

 

Nix talked late in 2012/early 2013 about moving SJ to the slot, which was a bad decision. SJ may not be the #1 people crave, but he's better on the outside despite not having great speed.

 

It would also help if Manuel could attempt and complete the throws Fitzpatrick did. That's not a statement on either, but I don't think EJ got the ball to receivers who were open downfield. The All-22 seemed to indicate EJ remained gun-shy and it affected SJ's numbers.

[OldTimer1960]

In my opinion, Johnson is a good player who would be even better if he had a truly dominant Wr to play with so that he wasn't getting the defense's top attention. That being said, they have to weigh whether he is worth the salary he is receiving. I am not positive of his salary or Byrd's demands, but if it came down to Byrd at $8.5M/yr or SJ13 for $7M/yr - I would think that Byrd would be the better investment. I am not dissing SJ, but Byrd is clutch.

[Superb Owl]

He has incredible moves, but timing is so important to offense so dunno

[The Big Cat]

Points 1 & 2 - You're just wrong, plain and simple. There are not 31 better receivers in the league. Hence, he's a number 1.

 

Point 3 - He would have received a bigger contract if he tested free agency.

 

Point 4 - Ahhhh the hyperbole. Wildly overvalued? He's the 22nd highest paid WR in the league.

 

The only people who seem to take this personal are the people who feel the need to seriously overexaggerate how bad he is.

 

There are more teams with at least two receivers better than Stevie than there are teams on which he would be the best. So your first point is false.

 

You say 22nd highest paid receiver as if that's a good thing, even though in 2013 he finished 68th in catches, 70th in yards and 89th in TD's.

 

Sure, he was injured, but in 2012: 18th in catches, 18th in yards, 35th in TD's.

 

These since he got his contract.

 

I'd mind who you accuse of hyperbole when you make his contract out to be bargain when the issue of whether he's earned that money is arguable, at best.

 

I've said time and time again that Stevie got his mojo from the freedom Chan's offense/Fitz's style afforded him.

 

With those components eliminated, I don't think we'll 2010 numbers (his only real season of note, to date (2011 numbers virtually identical to 2012) ever again.

 

But oh, by the way, we started 2010 0-8, so, sorry if I'm a bit underwhelmed by what ANYONE did that year.

Edited February 15, 2014 by The Big Cat

[PO'14]

It is very tiring that individuals on this board need to make everything so personal. You make a reasoned post judging the attributes of a player and they take it as a personal attack on them and their beliefs. Football is a business, players and coaches are employees. A good business will try to put out the best "product" they can , making what they consider a decent profit.

 

1.) Stevie is not a legitimate #1 receiver compared to the general standards of the majority of teams in the NFL (The competition)

As in the PFF post here he was recently rated as a solid starter/valuable role player. He is a legitimate #2 in the league.

 

2.) The Bills consider him a #1, their fault

 

3.) He has a contract which pays him as if he is a #1 (their fault), he is not performing up to the value of his contract

 

4.) Because he has a contract that wildly overvalues his performance and ability, it will be very difficult to find another team that would trade for him, since he is not worth that much to other teams that have a proper sense of value.

 

5.) We can not cut him since our cap hit would be counter productive. Besides he is a solid player, just not worth his inflated overvalued contract. Why get rid of a solid starter if it won't save money or make you a better team.

 

6.) In order to succeed as a team and a business we need to find (via trade, FA or the draft), a true #1 receiver

 

5.) It does not matter how nice a guy he is off the field, it matters what he does on the field to win games and make the team a success.

 

It is not personal, any possibility should always be on the table, and open for discussion here, concerning what would make the team a better team. Every player is always on the table for trade, cut, replacement. No one is exempt. It is a business, period. Both sides, please stop making it personal.

 

 

WINNING POST!

 

Good Job!

 

As a caveat: I don't know as if we can judge any receiver on the Bills by what we saw last year. (1) We had a 1st year HC and a 1st year OC. (2) We had 3 QBs with little to no NFL experience rotating in and out at the position throughout the year. (3) We also had receivers that were hobbled by injuries and/or in and out of the lineup throughout the year. The last two alone resulted in no real ability for any one QB to establish any real “chemistry” with a particular receiver or the receiving group as a whole.

 

Based on the above, as well as a number of other factors, I do not believe it is possible to reasonably reach any conclusions about individual performances. There were many things that contributed to the 28^th ranked passing attack – from the FO down to individual players.

 

As for SJ, he played in only 12 games last year and was hobbled in a number of those. As to your question, “Did the Bills miss SJ when he didn’t play?” – From a purely statistical perspective, the answer is no. In the 12 games SJ played, the Bills averaged 204 yds per game and 5.82 yds per attempt. In the 4 games without him, they averaged 225 yds per game and 7.89 yds per attempt.

 

However, also from a statistical perspective, they are different sample sizes and there was one game out of the four SJ did not play in that really skewed the numbers. Take away that one game and the numbers are pretty much even.

 

Even more than that, however, is that there is a lot more to the game than statistics and you are asking a question that is impossible to answer. Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else can say how SJ would have performed in the games that he missed. In addition, there is a lot that goes into how well or how poorly an individual player or a team plays on any given day - not to mention all the things I discussed above.

 

As to your other issue (in your other posts) with SJ’s drops in “clutch” situations – we tend to remember extremes when we evaluate data. It is called availability bias. For example, in regard to SJ, we tend to remember those plays that cause us the most extreme emotions and tend to overlook all the plays that provoked less extreme emotions. He has also made some big catches – and he has certainly made a lot of catches that have sustained drives, etc. I would venture to say that every really good receiver has dropped passes in “clutch” situations. It happens. We as Bills fans just do not recall them because they are not receivers for our team. Over all, in SJ’s career, he has caught 55% of the passes thrown to him. In comparison to career numbers of some top receivers: Calvin Johnson 55%, Josh Gordon 54%, AJ Green 57%, DeSean Jackson 55%, TY Hilton 58%. What does it mean? Nothing. That just leads us into debates about how good their respective QBs are, how good their teams are, etc, etc, etc. There are a lot of variables that go into those numbers.

 

In the end, it all comes down to opinion on this board and we are each entitled. Based on your posts, I don't think much could be offered to change your mind, which is fine. IMHO, last year means nothing in terms of SJ’s ability. Based on career numbers, objective observations of him in game after game during his career, and intangibles, I think it would be foolish to trade him. I do not think he is a true #1 receiver (and I would love to get one); however, he clearly is a talented receiver.

 

And since when is it ever a good idea for a team that is trying to build itself into a playoff contender to get rid of talented players?

 

AMEN! ANOTHER WINNNING POST!

 

[mrags]

 

 

 

WINNING POST!

 

Good Job!

 

 

 

AMEN! ANOTHER WINNNING POST!

 

yay!!! Someone agrees with me and my crusade. They are the best ever.

 

Get a grip dude

[3rdand12]

let it ride.

last year was a bit of a wash all around.

I strongly expect the New Bills coaches to find their proverbial footing this year .

If they dont , talkin about players is moot .

there i said it. MOOT !

[PO'14]

yay!!! Someone agrees with me and my crusade. They are the best ever.

 

Get a grip dude

 

if you actually took the time to read both posts, they are neutral in regards to Stevie. Seems like your crusade is to say that Im on a Crusade. Yawn!

Edited February 15, 2014 by curitiba

[The Big Cat]

if you actually took the time to read both posts, they are neutral in regards to Stevie. Seems like your crusade is to say that Im on a Crusade. Yawn!

yay!!! Someone agrees with me and my crusade. They are the best ever.

 

Get a grip dude

 

I acknowledge my outspokenness on this topic, but I'm far from alone in my opinion.

 

In fact, I'd say there enough posters who share my opinion that it's time to stop marginalizing the argument by referring to it as "personal" or as a "crusade." This is often the counterpoint, as evident in this thread.

Edited February 15, 2014 by The Big Cat

[mrags]

 

 

if you actually took the time to read both posts, they are neutral in regards to Stevie. Seems like your crusade is to say that Im on a Crusade. Yawn!

still waiting for real "cons" as to why we should get rid of our best receiver. Yawn!!!

[The Big Cat]

still waiting for real "cons" as to why we should get rid of our best receiver. Yawn!!!

 

Are you honestly pleading ignorant to any/all of Stevie's flaws?

Edited February 15, 2014 by The Big Cat

[LB3]

 

 

There are more teams with at least two receivers better than Stevie than there are teams on which he would be the best. So your first point is false.

 

You say 22nd highest paid receiver as if that's a good thing, even though in 2013 he finished 68th in catches, 70th in yards and 89th in TD's.

 

Sure, he was injured, but in 2012: 18th in catches, 18th in yards, 35th in TD's.

 

These since he got his contract.

 

I'd mind who you accuse of hyperbole when you make his contract out to be bargain when the issue of whether he's earned that money is arguable, at best.

 

I've said time and time again that Stevie got his mojo from the freedom Chan's offense/Fitz's style afforded him.

 

With those components eliminated, I don't think we'll 2010 numbers (his only real season of note, to date (2011 numbers virtually identical to 2012) ever again.

 

But oh, by the way, we started 2010 0-8, so, sorry if I'm a bit underwhelmed by what ANYONE did that year.

 

To your first point: Wrong. I'm sure you're either counting potential when you say this or you're giving way too much credit to receivers who have only had one good year so far.

 

To your second point: Maybe you should consult a dictionary here. Who was the one overexaggerating? He earned his contract with three straight 1000 yard seasons. I know you think the 22nd biggest is way too much, I think a lot of people would disagree. Also, at the time he signed his contract, he gave us a hometown discount. Did he earn it last year while injured and getting used to 3 different QB's? No. You got me there. Hindsight is fun isn't it!

 

To your third point: You give credit to Fitz and Chan for allowing him to freelance on his routes, but don't acknowledge that it was because they built that relationship by working together for a couple seasons. Which is something that you think he'll never be able to do with any other QB ever again for some reason. Once again, damn him for not building a better rapport with his continuously healthy QB'S while missing time with his own injuries. If Stevie got traded to the Pats this year, he would put up top 10 receiver numbers, possibly top 5.

 

Anyway, there's no point in arguing with YOU about Stevie any further. You've made it abundantly clear about how you feel about him on and off the field. Have a good day and enjoy your oddly personal hatred for him.

Edited February 15, 2014 by KikoSeeBallKikoGetBall

[mrags]

 

 

Are you honestly pleading ignorant to any/all of Stevie's flaws?

are you pleading ignorant to his "pros"?

[The Big Cat]

To the first part bolded: Wrong. I'm sure you're either counting potential when you say this or you're giving way too much credit to receivers who have only had one good year so far.

 

To the second part bolded: Maybe you should consult a dictionary here. Who was the one overexaggerating? He earned his contract with three straight 1000 yard seasons. I know you think the 22nd biggest, I think a lot of people would disagree. Also, at the time he signed his contract, he have us a hometown discount. Did he earn it last year while injured and getting used to 3 different QB's? No. You got me there. Hindsight is fun isn't it!

 

To the third part bolded: You give credit to Fitz and Chan for allowing him to freelance on his routes, but don't acknowledge that it was because they built that relationship by working together for a couple seasons. Which is something that you think he'll never be able to do with any other QB ever again for some reason. Once again, damn him for not building a better rapport with his continuously healthy QB'S while missing time with his own injuries. If Stevie got traded to the Pats this year, he would put up top 10 receiver numbers, possibly top 5.

 

Anyway, there's no point in arguing with YOU about Stevie any further. You've made it abundantly clear about how you feel about him on and off the field. Have a good day and enjoy your oddly personal hatred for him.

 

Aaaaaaand you accused me of making it personal...just like I said you would. Nobody who questions the guy--in spite of the growing number of people who do--has any idea what they're talking about, according to you.

 

Re: your first response, fine then, please name for me the team's for whom he'd be the unquestioned number one. There are plenty of Bills fans who don't believe he is here. They must all be wrong because you said so, I guess.

 

Re: your second response, I think I showed ample numbers to indicate there was no hometown discount awarded. He earned what he earned. It was neither a bargain (as you continually suggest it was) nor was it an extravagant amount (as I have yet to suggest). But you insist it was a hometown discount to make your point, then accuse others of hyperbole...hmmm.

 

Re: your third response, If he benefited from Chan/Fitz because of all the time they had together, then how is it he put up his best numbers during Chan's first season that began with Trent Edwards at the helm? If it's rapport (or the unjust lack thereof) we're blaming 2013 on, how come the rapport you speak of resulted in a statistical tapering/plateau following the aforementioned career season?

 

are you pleading ignorant to his "pros"?

 

Not at all. Unlike most people who are blind to his shortcomings and choose instead to sing the guy's praises by calling me a cook with an axe to grind, I can actually acknowledge the good things he's done for our team.

Edited February 15, 2014 by The Big Cat

[Malazan]

What drove Tim to become a full on troll btw?

[mrags]

As can I cat. I acknowledge his shortcomings. I just think many blow them out of proportion.

[The Big Cat]

As can I cat. I acknowledge his shortcomings. I just think many blow them out of proportion.

 

I can only speak for myself, but unlike you, I have a hard time living with them because they always seem to have the worst impact imaginable. The fumbles, the drops, the miscues. They only seem to happen at times when they simply can't. And what makes it harder to get over these--as has been hashed out SO many times by SO many posters in addition to me--is that there are other factors at play which seem to indicate he'll never get over these problems, compounded by the fact that every time he's given a chance to prove otherwise (the one !@#$ing catch against Carolina notwithstanding) something else goes wrong.

 

You got me. I just have to respond.

 

Aaaaaand you do take it personal. You also love taking every opportunity you have to play the victim card. You've done so multiple times. Paraphrase:"Everyone always hates me cus I hate Stevie." How many times do people, myself included, have to admit to The Big Cat that they acknowledge his flaws, but appreciate everything else.

 

To your first response: That's not how debates work. You throw out an opinion, "There are more teams with 2 better wr's than teams with none", without supporting it at all. I call you out on that, and it's somehow my job to prove your point for you??? You go ahead and name your teams since you're so confident and you made the statement in question.

 

To your second response: I didn't exaggerate. He did. I just made generally accepted points. Once again, you misinterpret hyperbole.

 

To your third response: He had three good seasons in a row. The second two were slightly worse...Holy crap you really got me there!

 

Lastly: I ACKNOWLEDGE STEVIE'S FLAWS. Okay.

 

Did you or did you not formulate your case by accusing me having an "odd" "personal hatred" for a member of the Buffalo Bills?

Edited February 15, 2014 by The Big Cat

[Beerball]

I really don't think that y'all (y'all know who y'all are) are going to settle this and you've had enough chances. So, y'all take this to PM if you must.

[The Big Cat]

I really don't think that y'all (y'all know who y'all are) are going to settle this and you've had enough chances. So, y'all take this to PM if you must.

 

Now this is a surprising new precedent!

[YoloinOhio]

If I am Whaley/Marrone, I do not trade him unless I am offered a 3rd round pick or higher AND I am able to sign a FA veteran WR who is just as good as SJ. Having a rookie-ish QB out there with all rookie and 2nd yr WRs, even if one is a 1st rd pick with potential to be a #1 WR, is a recipe for disaster i n this coming season. I also don't cut him unless I can get another veteran who is just as good for less $. Otherwise, the team is getting worse by trading or cutting him and you should just deal with whatever reported issues he has in the locker room as coaches and FO. Its not like the guy is in the substance program or in trouble with the law. I think his issues are all in his head with his untimely drops/fumble last year. Let's let Rob Moore and Hostler do their jobs and see if this can be improved. Meanwhile, draft a guy to be the eventual #1 WR. But for now, we need some kind of veteran presence in the WR corp.