Maury Ballstein Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 ALways the same answer Billz...A GUY THAT CAN GET OPEN....Ill finish the sentence BUT DROPS THE BALL WHEN IT COUNTS!!! Minus the times where he catches the ball....hence the reason he gets paid to do so professionally. We have had this same thread 10times over with the same drop stats of all the wideouts. Let's move on. this one is a quitter and needs to start putting in resumes at Lowes 7th round wideout to 7 mil a year ? Sounds like a quitter to me... Cheeeeeeze Why hate on the people who work at Lowes? Life is hard for some. Don't disparage the workers.
Ramius Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 ALways the same answer Billz...A GUY THAT CAN GET OPEN....Ill finish the sentence BUT DROPS THE BALL WHEN IT COUNTS!!! Everything on a messageboard is opinion. No one is right or wrong. I never said get rid of him. The OP said get rid of him. I maintain he chokes under pressure time and time again and personally didnt miss him the games that he was injured. THanks for the questions! Still conveniently ignoring the Carolina game, huh?
thebandit27 Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 Curitiba You are not waiting for pros or answers of any kind; you've been given them time an again, in this thread and several others of its ilk. What you're waiting for us any kin of positive response so that you can further your crusade--one that you openly admit you've been on for quite some time. We know your opinion by now, and you well know the arguments against it. This thread is about Stevie's possible trade value; how about we let people discuss it without the side show?
NoSaint Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 Curitiba You are not waiting for pros or answers of any kind; you've been given them time an again, in this thread and several others of its ilk. What you're waiting for us any kin of positive response so that you can further your crusade--one that you openly admit you've been on for quite some time. We know your opinion by now, and you well know the arguments against it. This thread is about Stevie's possible trade value; how about we let people discuss it without the side show? Yea, his answers to beerball were pretty telling.
mrags Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) ALways the same answer Billz...A GUY THAT CAN GET OPEN....Ill finish the sentence BUT DROPS THE BALL WHEN IT COUNTS!!! Everything on a messageboard is opinion. No one is right or wrong. I never said get rid of him. The OP said get rid of him. I maintain he chokes under pressure time and time again and personally didnt miss him the games that he was injured. THanks for the questions! all you Stevie haters can come up with is "Chokes when it counts" it's already been stated that Stevie "is not clutch" which many here wouldn't disagree with. Even the supporters. Hell, I'm a huge Stevie fan and I understand he's not a guy that's going to always grab that last second TD to win the game (excluding Carolina obviously). Your crusade is comical. Trade or cut, not only best receiver on this team, but the best one we have had in over a decade. Where is the logic in that? Why??? Because he broke your heart 3 times in the last few years? Pittsburgh, New England (not really his fault, horrible throw), and Atlanta (yet nobody wants to decapitate Chandler for what he did). The fact is, against Atlanta, the guy was trying to make a play to win the game. He fumbled it. Chit happens. Get over it. It happens all the time. Adrian Peterson fumbled a few years ago in a playoff game that turned into a direct loss, would you trade him if he was in your team too??! The haters (like yourself) always say the same things... "All you Stevie lovers can do is bring up how he lives Buffalo and is a good guy, come up with some real reasons why we should keep him" How about: -he's the only Receiver the Bills have ever had that has produced 3 straight 1,000 yard seasons. A feat not matched by Hall of Famers Andre Reed and James Lofton, or an even better Receiver in Eric Moulds. -hes the only receiver to catch 10 TD passes donning a Bills uniform since Mould in 2002 and before that Reed in 1991. Over 10 years and 20 years!!! -3 years out of 5 where he has received just over or just under 80 receptions. 82, 76, 79. -in just 5 years (2 of which he didn't even get on the field) he's accumulated 28 TDs which happens to be more than Half of Moulds (48 in 10 seasons) and almost a 3rd of Reeds (86 in 15 seasons). So in 5 years, he's on pace to match 2 of the best receivers the Bills have ever had (one of which is a HOFer). And 2 of his 5 years he rode the bench. Yeah, makes sense. But let's go deeper than us "Stevie Lovers" and the only pros we can come up with. All the "haters" can ever say about him is things like: -he's not clutch, I disagree, anyone here remember Carolina this seasons? How about Cincinnati a few years ago when he scored 3 TDs in one game? -he drops easy passes, Doesn't every player? Hell, I've seen Megatron and Desean Jackson both drop easy TDs because they were showboating too early and threw the ball away before they reached the goal line, or established the catch. I've got news for you, in the NFL, there's no such thing as an easy catch. That's why it's the NFL. If it was easy, you'd be out there catching passes from EJ in September. -he gets open but drops it when it counts, See answer above about easy passes -he fumbles, Yeah, so? Other guys don't? I'd bet if we did a search around the league for dropped passes and fumbled balls, Stevie is not even in the top 30 in the league. -he wasn't missed when he was injured this year, Really? Because we lost many games that he wasn't in. We specific won 1 game that he was in (Carolina) and lost one that he was in (Atlanta) but some could out just as much blame in Chandler but don't. The fact is, your butthurt that he dropped a catch that could have led to a win that you could have gloated about over the guy that sits next to your cubicle at work that is a huge Steelers, New England, Jets, Falcons fan. The fact is that he is the best receiver this team has seen since Moulds or Reed. The Fact is that he was a 7th round draft pick. Don't hate Stevie because he's not Calvin Johnson. No one ever said he was. You know who's comparable to Calvin Johnson? Moss, Owens. And both of them are first ballot Hall of Famers. But let's throw the baby out with the bath water because he's dropped a couple poorly thrown balls by guys like Trent Edwards, JP Losman, Ryan Ditzpatrick, and Jeff Tuell. Everytime I think I'm out... They pull me back in! This is it. I'm not responding to anymore Stevie Johnson sucks and should be traded threads. Just keep crusading and enjoy. Edited February 15, 2014 by mrags
simpleman Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) It is very tiring that individuals on this board need to make everything so personal. You make a reasoned post judging the attributes of a player and they take it as a personal attack on them and their beliefs. Football is a business, players and coaches are employees. A good business will try to put out the best "product" they can , making what they consider a decent profit. 1.) Stevie is not a legitimate #1 receiver compared to the general standards of the majority of teams in the NFL (The competition) As in the PFF post here he was recently rated as a solid starter/valuable role player. He is a legitimate #2 in the league. 2.) The Bills consider him a #1, their fault 3.) He has a contract which pays him as if he is a #1 (their fault), he is not performing up to the value of his contract 4.) Because he has a contract that wildly overvalues his performance and ability, it will be very difficult to find another team that would trade for him, since he is not worth that much to other teams that have a proper sense of value. 5.) We can not cut him since our cap hit would be counter productive. Besides he is a solid player, just not worth his inflated overvalued contract. Why get rid of a solid starter if it won't save money or make you a better team. 6.) In order to succeed as a team and a business we need to find (via trade, FA or the draft), a true #1 receiver 5.) It does not matter how nice a guy he is off the field, it matters what he does on the field to win games and make the team a success. It is not personal, any possibility should always be on the table, and open for discussion here, concerning what would make the team a better team. Every player is always on the table for trade, cut, replacement. No one is exempt. It is a business, period. Both sides, please stop making it personal. Edited February 15, 2014 by simpleman
The Big Cat Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 I still have a sneaking suspicion he'll be cut (after draft/FA), so a trade wouldn't bother me too much. Again AFTER the draft and FA as in if other guys are brought in, then I think his days are numbered. But what would I know? I'm just the guy who was completely unfazed when Bills nation had a collective meltdown over Evans' dismissal.
Maury Ballstein Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 Lee Evans and Stevie are so identical.
agardin Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) The addition by subtraction view makes no sense. Is SJ taking reps and playing time off a stud WR I don't know about. That's the only reason why a trade for a mid round pick would make sense. I like SJ and I think he has talent, he had a down year, let's see if he and EJ can step it up next year. Woods, Goodwin, SJ and the addition of another WR in the draft and the Bills will have some weapons. Edited February 15, 2014 by agardin
hondo in seattle Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 Stevie has flaws but I don't see how getting rid of the only proven WR on the team is a good idea. We desperately need more good receivers, not less.
LB3 Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 It is very tiring that individuals on this board need to make everything so personal. You make a reasoned post judging the attributes of a player and they take it as a personal attack on them and their beliefs. Football is a business, players and coaches are employees. A good business will try to put out the best "product" they can , making what they consider a decent profit. 1.) Stevie is not a legitimate #1 receiver compared to the general standards of the majority of teams in the NFL (The competition) As in the PFF post here he was recently rated as a solid starter/valuable role player. He is a legitimate #2 in the league. 2.) The Bills consider him a #1, their fault 3.) He has a contract which pays him as if he is a #1 (their fault), he is not performing up to the value of his contract 4.) Because he has a contract that wildly overvalues his performance and ability, it will be very difficult to find another team that would trade for him, since he is not worth that much to other teams that have a proper sense of value. 5.) We can not cut him since our cap hit would be counter productive. Besides he is a solid player, just not worth his inflated overvalued contract. Why get rid of a solid starter if it won't save money or make you a better team. 6.) In order to succeed as a team and a business we need to find (via trade, FA or the draft), a true #1 receiver 5.) It does not matter how nice a guy he is off the field, it matters what he does on the field to win games and make the team a success. It is not personal, any possibility should always be on the table, and open for discussion here, concerning what would make the team a better team. Every player is always on the table for trade, cut, replacement. No one is exempt. It is a business, period. Both sides, please stop making it personal. Points 1 & 2 - You're just wrong, plain and simple. There are not 31 better receivers in the league. Hence, he's a number 1. Point 3 - He would have received a bigger contract if he tested free agency. Point 4 - Ahhhh the hyperbole. Wildly overvalued? He's the 22nd highest paid WR in the league. The only people who seem to take this personal are the people who feel the need to seriously overexaggerate how bad he is.
CardinalScotts Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 In theory its a good thought, he would bring you something right now in exchange. BUT if I'm Marrone - no way it's playoffs or I will be burned at the stake I can not part with an NFL caliber player to look at the future, because it won't be my future. It's the cross of becoming the coach of a franchise that hasn't seen the playoff in 14 years and even though you have been head coach for 1 of those 14 years it's all your fault- all 14 years. So you can't make a smart deal with a new front office like a good team would do because our fans are ridiculous
billsfan1959 Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) IM still waiting for more Pros. All you homers can come up with is that he is a good guy and wants to stay in Buffalo! This is found on page 1 of Players interview manuel. "Love the city you play for, you are making millions!" No one answered the question...Did the Bills miss Stevie Johnson when he was injured this year??? As a caveat: I don't know as if we can judge any receiver on the Bills by what we saw last year. (1) We had a 1st year HC and a 1st year OC. (2) We had 3 QBs with little to no NFL experience rotating in and out at the position throughout the year. (3) We also had receivers that were hobbled by injuries and/or in and out of the lineup throughout the year. The last two alone resulted in no real ability for any one QB to establish any real “chemistry” with a particular receiver or the receiving group as a whole. Based on the above, as well as a number of other factors, I do not believe it is possible to reasonably reach any conclusions about individual performances. There were many things that contributed to the 28th ranked passing attack – from the FO down to individual players. As for SJ, he played in only 12 games last year and was hobbled in a number of those. As to your question, “Did the Bills miss SJ when he didn’t play?” – From a purely statistical perspective, the answer is no. In the 12 games SJ played, the Bills averaged 204 yds per game and 5.82 yds per attempt. In the 4 games without him, they averaged 225 yds per game and 7.89 yds per attempt. However, also from a statistical perspective, they are different sample sizes and there was one game out of the four SJ did not play in that really skewed the numbers. Take away that one game and the numbers are pretty much even. Even more than that, however, is that there is a lot more to the game than statistics and you are asking a question that is impossible to answer. Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else can say how SJ would have performed in the games that he missed. In addition, there is a lot that goes into how well or how poorly an individual player or a team plays on any given day - not to mention all the things I discussed above. As to your other issue (in your other posts) with SJ’s drops in “clutch” situations – we tend to remember extremes when we evaluate data. It is called availability bias. For example, in regard to SJ, we tend to remember those plays that cause us the most extreme emotions and tend to overlook all the plays that provoked less extreme emotions. He has also made some big catches – and he has certainly made a lot of catches that have sustained drives, etc. I would venture to say that every really good receiver has dropped passes in “clutch” situations. It happens. We as Bills fans just do not recall them because they are not receivers for our team. Over all, in SJ’s career, he has caught 55% of the passes thrown to him. In comparison to career numbers of some top receivers: Calvin Johnson 55%, Josh Gordon 54%, AJ Green 57%, DeSean Jackson 55%, TY Hilton 58%. What does it mean? Nothing. That just leads us into debates about how good their respective QBs are, how good their teams are, etc, etc, etc. There are a lot of variables that go into those numbers. In the end, it all comes down to opinion on this board and we are each entitled. Based on your posts, I don't think much could be offered to change your mind, which is fine. IMHO, last year means nothing in terms of SJ’s ability. Based on career numbers, objective observations of him in game after game during his career, and intangibles, I think it would be foolish to trade him. I do not think he is a true #1 receiver (and I would love to get one); however, he clearly is a talented receiver. And since when is it ever a good idea for a team that is trying to build itself into a playoff contender to get rid of talented players? Edited February 15, 2014 by billsfan1959
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) From Tim Graham. Thank God. Now hopefully we can finally finish the work we started by drafting Woods and Goodwin, and get this offense built up like it should be. Trade Stevie with Tim Graham. Sure maybe Stevie may not have formal journalism training, but he tends to have interesting perspectives, has frequently demonstrated creativity and he understands football. These are all things Graham lacks. Id say as long as Stevie can write on a commensurate 5th grade level as Graham and equal the feeble attempts to generate controversy, it would be a HUGE upgrade. Edited February 15, 2014 by over 20 years of fanhood
KGUNBILLS Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 I don't agree with trading or cutting Stevie. Chandler,.... absolutely, b/c we could upgrade that position pretty easily. What I would like to know is what or who would you like to get if a trade was made involving SJ?
Beerball Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 In theory its a good thought, he would bring you something right now in exchange. BUT if I'm Marrone - no way it's playoffs or I will be burned at the stake I can not part with an NFL caliber player to look at the future, because it won't be my future. It's the cross of becoming the coach of a franchise that hasn't seen the playoff in 14 years and even though you have been head coach for 1 of those 14 years it's all your fault- all 14 years. So you can't make a smart deal with a new front office like a good team would do because our fans are ridiculous Sometimes people say the darnedest things.
TheMunsch Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 continually cutting players without replacements is not the path to success. if we draft a guy like watkins AND he plays well in his rookie year you consider making the move. right now are receivers are barely nfl caliber, and cutting the best one does nothing to help that. I agree this has been the bills problem for years. You don't get ride of a guy before you have a replacement who is better or equal. People do not be stupid and make snap decisions. What can we get out of stevie? Is what we get worth it? I would say we get a third round pick at best and a third round pick WR is not as good as him. KEEP HIM UNTIL YOU HAVE A BETTER OPTION
artmalibu Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 The cap hit for cutting him makes it a bad move, and his contract would be make a trade tough to get anything in return. At this point he is the best WR on the roster so why get rid of a guy to go backward at that position. Its pointless to worry about the WRs until the Bills have a QB that can make the throws.
Kevin Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 The only receiver I'd like to see cut or traded is TJ Graham. I think next season Woods and Goodwin will be 1&2, and SJ will be the slot.
Dorkington Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 I don't see how getting rid of Stevie makes us better. But as a whole, our WR corps is still without a defense busting option (whether that be at WR or TE), and until that changes, we'll have offensive struggles. If we can get one of those "always open" guys that demands a team's attention, we'll be in great shape. Just because we have SJ13 on our team, doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't get one of those guys. Stevie is a great underneath, move the chains, possession sort of guy. He's not a guy that demands double teams and can break every catch out into 80 yard TDs.
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