FireChan Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 So now we're building up TJ Graham so that we can tear down Stevie Johnson? That's the plan now? Good to know. I don't know anything about we. Character wise, from what I've seen, I'd rather have 53 Grahams than 53 Stevies.
NDBUFFCUSEFAN Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 I don't know anything about we. Character wise, from what I've seen, I'd rather have 53 Grahams than 53 Stevies. What have you seen from TJ character wise?
FireChan Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 What have you seen from TJ character wise? Chasing down the pick six in the KC game for 100 yards. While SJ threw a fit in the end zone. I believe I already said that.
NDBUFFCUSEFAN Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 Chasing down the pick six in the KC game for 100 yards. While SJ threw a fit in the end zone. I believe I already said that. So TJ chases down one INT return and is better than Stevie. Good analysis, I thought WR were judged on catching passes and not running down INTs. Thanks for helping me reassess how I judge WR.
Dorkington Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 I'd be happy with (big WR from draft), SJ and Woods as my usual three on the field. Goodwin as the occasional field stretcher.
Maury Ballstein Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 I don't know anything about we. Character wise, from what I've seen, I'd rather have 53 Grahams than 53 Stevies. Allrighty then. Someone go get 52 more tj Grahams. Keep FC far far away from OBD plz.
BigBuff423 Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 I think that you "trade Stevie" guys are really living in a dream world. We can argue how good he is till the cows come home but the fact remains, and has been pointed out in this thread time and time again, that he simply is not nearly good enough for another NFL team to trade for his almost 9 million dollar a year salary. Even Stevie fans like me wouldn't trade for him at that salary. Yet we still get people here thinking that a team would trade for Stevie. As for Decker, he's not coming here because Stevie's going to be a Buffalo Bill in 2014 and again his salary is almost 9 million dollars. The Bills aren't laying down two huge contracts at WR. First of all, I would be in a dream world if SJ could garner a 1st round pick, but don't tell me a team exactly like Carolina wouldn't trade a 3rd round pick for SJ..?? Sorry, but I think if the BILLS wanted to dance, they'd find a partner... Secondly, I don't *want Decker AND SJ, I would prefer Decker OVER SJ and therefore, once SJ was traded I would use that Cap savings and spend it on Decker...but that's me...they man has produced for the years he's been in the NFL...and someone said the #3 target, yes, behind a guy who just set a Super Bowl record for catches and Welker, not to mention a TE that "came out of nowhere", although not really because he's been with the Broncos for three years and yet he STILL had almost 1,300 yards and 11 TDs, and in 2012: almost 1,100 yards and 13 TDs...everyone said Decker's TD and yards would be hindered with Welker, but um, guess not....and given he's listed at 6'3", he's a good size and good route runner and makes some solid catches and doesn't take stupid penalties, all those things, are upgrades from SJ...like SJ, hate SJ, keep him, trade him, cut him...whatever your opinion, but comparing Decker to SJ and saying he isn't as good is just flat out - wrong.
Beerball Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 So TJ chases down one INT return and is better than Stevie. Good analysis, I thought WR were judged on catching passes and not running down INTs. Thanks for helping me reassess how I judge WR. Allrighty then. Someone go get 52 more tj Grahams. Keep FC far far away from OBD plz. He clearly said CHARACTER people. He'd prefer "character wise" a bunch of Grahams to a bunch of SJ's. Either find fault with that or quit responding to the posts. stop creating controversy
thebandit27 Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 First of all, I would be in a dream world if SJ could garner a 1st round pick, but don't tell me a team exactly like Carolina wouldn't trade a 3rd round pick for SJ..?? Sorry, but I think if the BILLS wanted to dance, they'd find a partner... Secondly, I don't *want Decker AND SJ, I would prefer Decker OVER SJ and therefore, once SJ was traded I would use that Cap savings and spend it on Decker...but that's me...they man has produced for the years he's been in the NFL...and someone said the #3 target, yes, behind a guy who just set a Super Bowl record for catches and Welker, not to mention a TE that "came out of nowhere", although not really because he's been with the Broncos for three years and yet he STILL had almost 1,300 yards and 11 TDs, and in 2012: almost 1,100 yards and 13 TDs...everyone said Decker's TD and yards would be hindered with Welker, but um, guess not....and given he's listed at 6'3", he's a good size and good route runner and makes some solid catches and doesn't take stupid penalties, all those things, are upgrades from SJ...like SJ, hate SJ, keep him, trade him, cut him...whatever your opinion, but comparing Decker to SJ and saying he isn't as good is just flat out - wrong. That was me. I understand you like Decker better--there's a few nits I have to respectfully pick with this post: - As I said, the NFL.com article suggests that Decker is looking for $10M/year, so simply putting the "SJ savings" toward him wouldn't get it done. - My point about him being the #3 target is that it's much easier to put up huge numbers if other teams consider you the #3 (or even #4) target and your team throws the ball more than 90% of the NFL--I wasn't calling him the #3 target to knock him - My overriding sentiment about Decker was intended to be that the team that signs him for $10M is buying high, hoping he can replicate his production with Peyton Manning...I just don't think that's reasonable and would consider it a poor investment. I look at what Manning's done over the years with guys like Pierre Garcon, Blair White, Austin Collie, Jacob Tamme, etc. that left and never came close to repeating what they did with him at QB (although Garcon was excellent this season--partly due to Washington playing from behind all year long) I do think Decker's a good WR--please don't get me wrong. I just think that it's unwise to pay him what he'll be seeking on the open market when there's a seemingly strong WR class coming in, and it's possible to get someone of his ilk with a 2nd or 3rd round pick this year. Remember that Decker himself was a 3rd round pick back in 2010. Just my 1 cent.
QB Bills Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 Now Eric Decker is better than Stevie too? What is wrong with bills fans?
Maury Ballstein Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 He clearly said CHARACTER people. He'd prefer "character wise" a bunch of Grahams to a bunch of SJ's. Either find fault with that or quit responding to the posts. stop creating controversy I am a Stevie enabler. Character or not he's still 30 times more valuable that Tj. And he was in the back of the end zone to Fc. Not sure how he has any shot whatsoever of catching the cb who housed it. Plenty of losing teams are filled w good characters. Playmakers still get the cash.
BigBuff423 Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) That was me. I understand you like Decker better--there's a few nits I have to respectfully pick with this post: - As I said, the NFL.com article suggests that Decker is looking for $10M/year, so simply putting the "SJ savings" toward him wouldn't get it done. - My point about him being the #3 target is that it's much easier to put up huge numbers if other teams consider you the #3 (or even #4) target and your team throws the ball more than 90% of the NFL--I wasn't calling him the #3 target to knock him - My overriding sentiment about Decker was intended to be that the team that signs him for $10M is buying high, hoping he can replicate his production with Peyton Manning...I just don't think that's reasonable and would consider it a poor investment. I look at what Manning's done over the years with guys like Pierre Garcon, Blair White, Austin Collie, Jacob Tamme, etc. that left and never came close to repeating what they did with him at QB (although Garcon was excellent this season--partly due to Washington playing from behind all year long) I do think Decker's a good WR--please don't get me wrong. I just think that it's unwise to pay him what he'll be seeking on the open market when there's a seemingly strong WR class coming in, and it's possible to get someone of his ilk with a 2nd or 3rd round pick this year. Remember that Decker himself was a 3rd round pick back in 2010. Just my 1 cent. Fair enough...and I should have been clearer in my statement in that when I said, "I would put that savings toward Decker", I meant that in essence would only cost the BILLS an additional $3-$4 mill per year and a younger player, taller, better route runner, and more productive...now, that said, I wouldn't expect Decker to be a guy that had such production, but would merely replace SJ at a better price point when considering production and I, for my preference, would ALSO (not yelling, just indicating an important point) Draft a tall outside WR with decent speed and hands in the 2nd Round preferrably, but would wait until the 3rd if the WR position looked like it wasn't being torn to shreds during the Draft...so in my perspective for an "extra" $3-$4 million you would have a younger, highly productive, tall, fast and good pass catching WR to take over SJ's spot, Woods on the outside with Goodwin being a slot guy along with a fly route type of weapon to take the top off the Offense and then a Rookie WR on the outside that matches the physical prototype you're looking for...and let's face it, injuries happen and having depth at that position only helps the BILLS, competition is a good thing. You're absolutely right about Manning making other WRs look good, but Decker wouldn't have to be "the answer" in Buffalo, he would just need to be productive because with a strong running game a set of other WRs that could also be real threats, Decker comes into a similar situation as he's in IF the BILLS Draft right / well this year.... Now Eric Decker is better than Stevie too? What is wrong with bills fans? We disagree, that's cool...I respect everyone's opinion as long as they're respectful and reasonably intelligent with a cogent argument to their credit.....but IMO, Decker is head and shoulders a better WR than SJ....SJ has good movement off the line and getting of the jamb is one of his strengths. Speed not so much, strong and steady hands not so much, some attitude concerns on the field, and sometimes an attitude issue off the field are all of his detractions....one person pointed to TJ trying to run down the KC INT for 100 yards while SJ threw up his hands in frustration, and yes, that epitomizes my issue with SJ. Has SJ gotten better at not being an on-the-field issue with his stupid penalties? Yes....has he been less abrasive in his off-the-field comments? Yes...he's matured a bit and that's to his credit as well...but sometimes, as fans it's not so easy to just "let bygones be bygones" and forget all the past issues and so they pile up like a sum total and at end of the day, some of us just reach that point when we say, "I'm done with this guy"...that's me with SJ....is it fair? I don't know....is it logical? probably not...but right now, if I had a choice between Decker or SJ and it cost me $3-$4 million more for Decker, I'd take Decker and not look back and believe the team is all the better for it Having said all of that, in various posts in different threads I've stated I'm fully against over-paying for certain positions and WR is actually one of them...so, if SJ is traded or released (that's defeinitely not happening) I am also "ok" with spending the money SJ release / trade saves the BILLS on Offensive / Defensive Line or stud LB....because as previous Super Bowl teams have shown, WRs are a dime-a-dozen when the rest of the team is playing well.....see the most recent Super Bowl as an example... Edited February 20, 2014 by BigBuff423
thebandit27 Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 Fair enough...and I should have been clearer in my statement in that when I said, "I would put that savings toward Decker", I meant that in essence would only cost the BILLS an additional $3-$4 mill per year and a younger player, taller, better route runner, and more productive...now, that said, I wouldn't expect Decker to be a guy that had such production, but would merely replace SJ at a better price point when considering production and I, for my preference, would ALSO (not yelling, just indicating an important point) Draft a tall outside WR with decent speed and hands in the 2nd Round preferrably, but would wait until the 3rd if the WR position looked like it wasn't being torn to shreds during the Draft...so in my perspective for an "extra" $3-$4 million you would have a younger, highly productive, tall, fast and good pass catching WR to take over SJ's spot, Woods on the outside with Goodwin being a slot guy along with a fly route type of weapon to take the top off the Offense and then a Rookie WR on the outside that matches the physical prototype you're looking for...and let's face it, injuries happen and having depth at that position only helps the BILLS, competition is a good thing. You're absolutely right about Manning making other WRs look good, but Decker wouldn't have to be "the answer" in Buffalo, he would just need to be productive because with a strong running game a set of other WRs that could also be real threats, Decker comes into a similar situation as he's in IF the BILLS Draft right / well this year.... We disagree, that's cool...I respect everyone's opinion as long as they're respectful and reasonably intelligent with a cogent argument to their credit.....but IMO, Decker is head and shoulders a better WR than SJ....SJ has good movement off the line and getting of the jamb is one of his strengths. Speed not so much, strong and steady hands not so much, some attitude concerns on the field, and sometimes an attitude issue off the field are all of his detractions....one person pointed to TJ trying to run down the KC INT for 100 yards while SJ threw up his hands in frustration, and yes, that epitomizes my issue with SJ. Has SJ gotten better at not being an on-the-field issue with his stupid penalties? Yes....has he been less abrasive in his off-the-field comments? Yes...he's matured a bit and that's to his credit as well...but sometimes, as fans it's not so easy to just "let bygones be bygones" and forget all the past issues and so they pile up like a sum total and at end of the day, some of us just reach that point when we say, "I'm done with this guy"...that's me with SJ....is it fair? I don't know....is it logical? probably not...but right now, if I had a choice between Decker or SJ and it cost me $3-$4 million more for Decker, I'd take Decker and not look back and believe the team is all the better for it Having said all of that, in various posts in different threads I've stated I'm fully against over-paying for certain positions and WR is actually one of them...so, if SJ is traded or released (that's defeinitely not happening) I am also "ok" with spending the money SJ release / trade saves the BILLS on Offensive / Defensive Line or stud LB....because as previous Super Bowl teams have shown, WRs are a dime-a-dozen when the rest of the team is playing well.....see the most recent Super Bowl as an example... I gotcha...it's hard to argue against that approach honestly. My personal preference is that I'd ideally like to draft a guy that is the answer at WR (or even a dominant TE if they felt Ebron--for example--was that type of guy). You're right about being able to win with pedestrian WRs assuming everything else goes well--I'm always quick to point out that Tom Brady won 3 Superbowls with guys like David Patten, Troy Brown, and David Givens, and won zero with Randy Moss, Chad Ochojohnson, and Wes Welker. I just think that our rookie QB could use as many dependable targets as possible to help his development. You and I aren't actually very far apart on this issue at all.
Beerball Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 I am a Stevie enabler. Character or not he's still 30 times more valuable that Tj. Then quibble with someone who says Graham is a better player.
Dorkington Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 Wait... wait.. now the Bills should replace SJ with a guy who is worse than him AND more expensive? That does sound like something we would do, but boy oh boy would it be !@#$ing stupid.
BigBuff423 Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 I gotcha...it's hard to argue against that approach honestly. My personal preference is that I'd ideally like to draft a guy that is the answer at WR (or even a dominant TE if they felt Ebron--for example--was that type of guy). You're right about being able to win with pedestrian WRs assuming everything else goes well--I'm always quick to point out that Tom Brady won 3 Superbowls with guys like David Patten, Troy Brown, and David Givens, and won zero with Randy Moss, Chad Ochojohnson, and Wes Welker. I just think that our rookie QB could use as many dependable targets as possible to help his development. You and I aren't actually very far apart on this issue at all. Aptly stated Stevie Johnson > Eric Decker Why? Just asking your thoughts.... Wait... wait.. now the Bills should replace SJ with a guy who is worse than him AND more expensive? That does sound like something we would do, but boy oh boy would it be !@#$ing stupid. As I asked the other person above, why do you consider Decker "worse than him (SJ)"? Please explain...
YoloinOhio Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 Wait... wait.. now the Bills should replace SJ with a guy who is worse than him AND more expensive? That does sound like something we would do, but boy oh boy would it be !@#$ing stupid. I thought Ralph was cheap?
Dorkington Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 From what I've seen of Decker, he doesn't actually create open space for himself. He's benefited from other players breaking a defense down, so he runs to a space much like Chandler or David Nelson, and then catches the ball and runs a bit. Him as a #1 on a team facing bump coverage against an opposing team's #1 CB will surely mess with any productivity he's valuable for. SJ on the other hand regularly goes against opposing team's #1 CB, and creates space for himself to get plays. I'm not of the opinion that SJ is some top tier WR, but he's proven that he can get open against the best, whereas Decker benefits from not being the focus of the opposing team's defense. I'd much rather have an "always open" WR/TE to complement SJ and Woods.
LB3 Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 Why? Just asking your thoughts.... Stevie is the better route runner. Always open, and against number 1 cb's. Decker 1 inch taller. Johnson 2 inch reach advantage. Saying he's got better size is an overstatement. Stevie has produced without one of the best QB's ever throwing to him. Decker benefits from Denver throwing more than any other team. Stevie is only 8 months older. So it's not like they're getting that much younger. Ill take the guy I know can produce without top level QB play.
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