Jonathan Martin

[NoSaint]

So when does the media start discussing Ritchie's mental health- trouble at two colleges, cut mid season by rams, we let him walk, now this in Miami... Drug issues off field, temper issues everywhere, sought treatment in college.... These wild mood swings on twitter (after 3 days of a closed account he reopened it and posted that until someone tells him otherwise he and Martin are brothers).... His crazy dad...

 

At somepoint you start to wonder if he's simply a jerk or if he has something major going on beyond being an entitled athlete with terrible judgement

 

 

heres the full twitter rant going the opposite direction of his last one:

http://deadspin.com/richie-incognito-is-back-with-an-apologetic-twitter-ran-1524994655

Edited February 18, 2014 by NoSaint

[BigBuff423]

So, apparently my wilingness to eat crow after the texts were released was premature....not to make Incognito the entire villain as apparently there were others and J. Martin probably has a soft side to him that can make it difficult to thrive in the NFL, but my initial instinct to call Incognito a bully is probably on point...

[Mr. WEO]

Apparently Andrew McDonald ("Player A") takes issue wit the report's insistence that he was bullied too.

 

http://espn.go.com/n...report-released

 

Despite the shocking revelations regarding the team's treatment of McDonald (blow up dolls! "you're gay"!), he said the following:

 

"While Andrew can't speak for other players involved in the report, he personally has had no problem with the Miami Dolphins organization and has the highest opinion of Coach Turner both personally and professionally and feels terrible about the way their relationship has been portrayed in the report."

 

And this is despite the fact that the Dolphins cut him in August.

 

Also, good article buy Le Batard describing the rarely commented on fact that essentially no one in the locker room is supporting MArtin and Incognito was widely supported.

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10462076/why-miami-siding-richie-incognito-not-jonathan-martin-victim

 

"There are a lot of clarity-of-hindsight gasbags on TV denouncing the lack of leadership in the Dolphins' locker room now. But maybe it wasn't a lack of leadership. Maybe it was an acceptance and understanding of that particular jungle. They didn't support Martin because they don't support him. We can all moralize about this now from the outside, choosing sides, but this wasn't about morality and immorality to the people on the inside. It was about strength and weakness. The players in that locker room think Martin is a soft, whining quitter who caused all this because he wasn't tough enough for their survival-of-the-fittest workplace."

Edited February 18, 2014 by Mr. WEO

[FireChan]

Apparently Andrew McDonald ("Player A") takes issue wit the report's insistence that he was bullied too.

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10462154/jonathan-martin-makes-first-comments-wells-report-released

 

Despite the shocking revelations regarding the team's treatment of McDonald (blow up dolls! "you're gay"!), he said the following:

 

"While Andrew can't speak for other players involved in the report, he personally has had no problem with the Miami Dolphins organization and has the highest opinion of Coach Turner both personally and professionally and feels terrible about the way their relationship has been portrayed in the report."

 

And this is despite the fact that the Dolphins cut him in August.

 

So are people going to eat crow for saying they were wrong about having to eat crow?

[RuntheDamnBall]

Apparently Andrew McDonald ("Player A") takes issue wit the report's insistence that he was bullied too.

 

http://espn.go.com/n...report-released

 

Despite the shocking revelations regarding the team's treatment of McDonald (blow up dolls! "you're gay"!), he said the following:

 

"While Andrew can't speak for other players involved in the report, he personally has had no problem with the Miami Dolphins organization and has the highest opinion of Coach Turner both personally and professionally and feels terrible about the way their relationship has been portrayed in the report."

 

And this is despite the fact that the Dolphins cut him in August.

 

Also, good article buy Le Batard describing the rarely commented on fact that essentially no one in the locker room is supporting MArtin and Incognito was widely supported.

 

http://espn.go.com/n...n-martin-victim

 

"There are a lot of clarity-of-hindsight gasbags on TV denouncing the lack of leadership in the Dolphins' locker room now. But maybe it wasn't a lack of leadership. Maybe it was an acceptance and understanding of that particular jungle. They didn't support Martin because they don't support him. We can all moralize about this now from the outside, choosing sides, but this wasn't about morality and immorality to the people on the inside. It was about strength and weakness. The players in that locker room think Martin is a soft, whining quitter who caused all this because he wasn't tough enough for their survival-of-the-fittest workplace."

So because a locker room full of idiots was swayed by the most charismatic idiot of them all, Martin is wrong? I've said before that it's possible Martin doesn't belong in the NFL, for a number of reasons, but the Dolphins' "survival-of-the-fittest workplace" is working out real well for them. Also, if that statement was crafted by McDonald personally, I'll eat my hat.

[FireChan]

So because a locker room full of idiots was swayed by the most charismatic idiot of them all, Martin is wrong? I've said before that it's possible Martin doesn't belong in the NFL, for a number of reasons, but the Dolphins' "survival-of-the-fittest workplace" is working out real well for them. Also, if that statement was crafted by McDonald personally, I'll eat my hat.

 

Actually, I'm sure all other locker rooms are the same because that's the entire point of football. Players get cut because they aren't strong enough, fast enough, tough enough, tall enough, you name it. The sport casts 30 year olds away like used napkins. I don't think that's a Phins exclusive mentality.

Edited February 19, 2014 by FireChan

[Mr. WEO]

So because a locker room full of idiots was swayed by the most charismatic idiot of them all, Martin is wrong? I've said before that it's possible Martin doesn't belong in the NFL, for a number of reasons, but the Dolphins' "survival-of-the-fittest workplace" is working out real well for them. Also, if that statement was crafted by McDonald personally, I'll eat my hat.

 

I think now you are intentionally missing the point.

 

Read the article. He says that these two (Martin and RI) are the extremes of the spectrum, but clearly this culture exists in the NFL locker room, and not just in Miami. The glaring, yet completely ignored fact that Le BAtard writes about (the players stand with RI) sums up the pop psychology the media has layered on this story thick and gooey since day one.

 

Everyone is shocked, SHOCKED!, to find out that racist comments (by blacks and whites), homophobic ball busting, "yo mamma/sister" stuff is part of the NFL locker room culture. It's such BS. This story has been like a trip to the driving range for (nearly) the entire "sports media" and social punditry--who struggle to avoid rewriting the exact story that everyone has already copied from everyone else.

 

I'm not sure what point your are making about McDonald's statement. Of course he didn't write that down for his lawyer to read. So what? It doesn't change the fact that he is denying Ted Wells's claim that he, too, was bullied by the evil Fins )-line coach.

 

The irony is that the only one in all of this who doesn't seem to be subtly (or overtly) spinning this whole saga for a certain agenda is poor meathead Richie Incognito. He's still in full frontal lobe release-- just letting it fly, unfiltered. No carefully cultivated texts and letters to his parents--in fact, no parents commenting much at all, no hints at suicide, no one intervening psychologically on his behalf--or even suggesting this dude needs help.

 

Nope, he is laid bare, by his own undoing. The entire sports and pop media world driving buckets of balls at him. No one standing at his side.

 

Oh, except the entire rest of his locker room, and likely a huge portion of NFL vets.

[NoSaint]

 

 

I think now you are intentionally missing the point.

 

Read the article. He says that these two (Martin and RI) are the extremes of the spectrum, but clearly this culture exists in the NFL locker room, and not just in Miami. The glaring, yet completely ignored fact that Le BAtard writes about (the players stand with RI) sums up the pop psychology the media has layered on this story thick and gooey since day one.

 

Everyone is shocked, SHOCKED!, to find out that racist comments (by blacks and whites), homophobic ball busting, "yo mamma/sister" stuff is part of the NFL locker room culture. It's such BS. This story has been like a trip to the driving range for (nearly) the entire "sports media" and social punditry--who struggle to avoid rewriting the exact story that everyone has already copied from everyone else.

 

I'm not sure what point your are making about McDonald's statement. Of course he didn't write that down for his lawyer to read. So what? It doesn't change the fact that he is denying Ted Wells's claim that he, too, was bullied by the evil Fins )-line coach.

 

The irony is that the only one in all of this who doesn't seem to be subtly (or overtly) spinning this whole saga for a certain agenda is poor meathead Richie Incognito. He's still in full frontal lobe release-- just letting it fly, unfiltered. No carefully cultivated texts and letters to his parents--in fact, no parents commenting much at all, no hints at suicide, no one intervening psychologically on his behalf--or even suggesting this dude needs help.

 

Nope, he is laid bare, by his own undoing. The entire sports and pop media world driving buckets of balls at him. No one standing at his side.

 

Oh, except the entire rest of his locker room, and likely a huge portion of NFL vets.

 

Yea Richie calling JM his brother yesterday isn't him attempting to spin or him asking teammates to destroy evidence likewise isn't trying to craft the narrative. And how soon we forget his crazy dad started bashing Martin as a drug user that attempted suicide 3 times within the first few days of the story breaking.

 

I'm not sure which story developing should scare nfl officials more - the negative press if JM doesn't get another shot, or how terrified RI is that he's not getting another possibly. Dude is a train wreck with a purpose in his life- if forced into retirement he could turn ugly fast.

Edited February 19, 2014 by NoSaint

[FireChan]

 

 

Yea Richie calling JM his brother yesterday isn't him attempting to spin or him asking teammates to destroy evidence likewise isn't trying to craft the narrative. And how soon we forget his crazy dad started bashing Martin as a drug user that attempted suicide 3 times within the first few days of the story breaking.

 

I'm not sure which story developing should scare nfl officials more - the negative press if JM doesn't get another shot, or how terrified RI is that he's not getting another possibly. Dude is a train wreck with a purpose in his life- if forced into retirement he could turn ugly fast.

 

Just once, I'd like to see a major business like the NFL agree on a course of action they actually thought was right and say to hell with the media consequences.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I think now you are intentionally missing the point.

 

Read the article. He says that these two (Martin and RI) are the extremes of the spectrum, but clearly this culture exists in the NFL locker room, and not just in Miami. The glaring, yet completely ignored fact that Le BAtard writes about (the players stand with RI) sums up the pop psychology the media has layered on this story thick and gooey since day one.

 

Everyone is shocked, SHOCKED!, to find out that racist comments (by blacks and whites), homophobic ball busting, "yo mamma/sister" stuff is part of the NFL locker room culture. It's such BS. This story has been like a trip to the driving range for (nearly) the entire "sports media" and social punditry--who struggle to avoid rewriting the exact story that everyone has already copied from everyone else.

 

I'm not sure what point your are making about McDonald's statement. Of course he didn't write that down for his lawyer to read. So what? It doesn't change the fact that he is denying Ted Wells's claim that he, too, was bullied by the evil Fins )-line coach.

 

The irony is that the only one in all of this who doesn't seem to be subtly (or overtly) spinning this whole saga for a certain agenda is poor meathead Richie Incognito. He's still in full frontal lobe release-- just letting it fly, unfiltered. No carefully cultivated texts and letters to his parents--in fact, no parents commenting much at all, no hints at suicide, no one intervening psychologically on his behalf--or even suggesting this dude needs help.

The dude has checked himself in to get help before and admitted as such in prior statements about how he'd reformed himself, and in his texts with Martin. And I would say that every time Incognito has gone on Twitter or released conversations he initiated with Martin via text, he is, too, trying to shape perception, even if he is about as subtle as a brick in doing so.

 

Still, the conclusion that you're left with is that a majority agree with him (not substantiated) and would back him. That's not provable nor is it likely. An NFL vet like Schlereth, like Donte Stallworth, like any number of guys who have publicly commented on the issue, doesn't necessarily back Incognito just because of this "code."

 

My point about McDonald's statement is that he is trying to hold onto a job in the NFL and if I were his lawyer I'd be running from any involvement in this, too. A guy low on the totem pole has to be a good soldier even if it isn't in his best interests in the long term.

[boyst]

will this end already?

 

Watching Sports Center it was 20 minutes on this, 20 minutes on some ceiling panels falling and 20 minutes on the ice dancing competition in the Olympics.

 

This world. This sports world. I worry for our future.

[Mr. WEO]

Yea Richie calling JM his brother yesterday isn't him attempting to spin or him asking teammates to destroy evidence likewise isn't trying to craft the narrative. And how soon we forget his crazy dad started bashing Martin as a drug user that attempted suicide 3 times within the first few days of the story breaking.

 

I'm not sure which story developing should scare nfl officials more - the negative press if JM doesn't get another shot, or how terrified RI is that he's not getting another possibly. Dude is a train wreck with a purpose in his life- if forced into retirement he could turn ugly fast.

 

RI's wildly fluctuating mood in his over the top tweets are exactly what I was referring to. They are comical and somewhat sad. It would be incorrect to describe them as any sort of "agenda". Clumsy attempts at self preservation don;t fall under that category.

 

I did acknowledge that RI's parents commented "not much at all"--and even that was a far cry (and widely characterized exactly as you just did as "crazy") from the gravitas afforded the comments of the highly educated upper middle class African American parents (an adjunct professor!, a lawyer!).

 

If there is one thing the NFL is not fearful of, it's negative press. They men who run that league know that Americans in general, and NFL fans in particular have very short memories--and all is forgotten or forgiven by week one next season.

[Mr. WEO]

The dude has checked himself in to get help before and admitted as such in prior statements about how he'd reformed himself, and in his texts with Martin. And I would say that every time Incognito has gone on Twitter or released conversations he initiated with Martin via text, he is, too, trying to shape perception, even if he is about as subtle as a brick in doing so.

 

Still, the conclusion that you're left with is that a majority agree with him (not substantiated) and would back him. That's not provable nor is it likely. An NFL vet like Schlereth, like Donte Stallworth, like any number of guys who have publicly commented on the issue, doesn't necessarily back Incognito just because of this "code."

 

My point about McDonald's statement is that he is trying to hold onto a job in the NFL and if I were his lawyer I'd be running from any involvement in this, too. A guy low on the totem pole has to be a good soldier even if it isn't in his best interests in the long term.

 

Again, and as Le Batard notes, they may not all agree with RI's actions, but they do not support Martin. Schlereth hasn't played in 13 seasons. He may be surprised as to what the specific tenor of the locker room is now.

 

Most unlikely is your claim that a disparate group of guys (the Dolphins--or any team, by definition) from different backgrounds, colleges and of different ages and time in the league, ALL were "idiots" who fell under the spell of the Rasputin-like influence of...Richie Incognito.

 

Yeah, that's a convincing scenario...

[RuntheDamnBall]

Again, and as Le Batard notes, they may not all agree with RI's actions, but they do not support Martin. Schlereth hasn't played in 13 seasons. He may be surprised as to what the specific tenor of the locker room is now.

 

Most unlikely is your claim that a disparate group of guys (the Dolphins--or any team, by definition) from different backgrounds, colleges and of different ages and time in the league, ALL were "idiots" who fell under the spell of the Rasputin-like influence of...Richie Incognito.

 

Yeah, that's a convincing scenario...

"An acceptance and understanding of that particular jungle" is pretty far from support, and it suggests just as much that team members would not want to cross certain lines to put themselves up for scrutiny.

 

Again, let's see the many other successful NFL teams (Miami not being one of them) that operate like this.

 

I see plenty of blaming Martin to go around here, and plenty of writing this off as "the way it is" - with precious little evidence. There's also very little evidence that going this far makes for a better team, for an environment where teammates respect one another and will battle for one another.

 

The mixed reactions you see from former NFL players who are commentators are pretty indicative of a wide range of feelings on this, and they don't all back the code or Incognito.

[Mr. WEO]

"An acceptance and understanding of that particular jungle" is pretty far from support, and it suggests just as much that team members would not want to cross certain lines to put themselves up for scrutiny.

 

Again, let's see the many other successful NFL teams (Miami not being one of them) that operate like this.

 

I see plenty of blaming Martin to go around here, and plenty of writing this off as "the way it is" - with precious little evidence. There's also very little evidence that going this far makes for a better team, for an environment where teammates respect one another and will battle for one another.

 

The mixed reactions you see from former NFL players who are commentators are pretty indicative of a wide range of feelings on this, and they don't all back the code or Incognito.

 

How has the "that would never happen in the Bills locker room" helped the Bills succeed the past 15 years?

 

The uniform response by ex players who work for networks has been to side with Martin. There hasn't been a "mixed response".

 

A recent ESPN random anonymous poll of a group of NFL players found 80% reported homophobic banter and comments used in their locker rooms.

[RuntheDamnBall]

How has the "that would never happen in the Bills locker room" helped the Bills succeed the past 15 years?

A respectful team atmosphere somehow doesn't change the amount of talent or coaching talent on the team. I dunno? I'm asking to see the examples of winning teams with "toxic" atmospheres. There aren't many. Maybe that's because they're winning and bad attitudes can be kept at bay, or maybe it's everywhere and it just gets swept under the narrative of the winning team. Probably a combo, plus there is the tight knit nature of the locker room and the sense that even bad secrets are worth keeping if you want to keep a job in the league.

 

Most often if there is any sort of team drama, it's with a player like T.O. or Dez visibly blowing up on field.

 

The uniform response by ex players who work for networks has been to side with Martin. There hasn't been a "mixed response".

I don't watch much lately but I saw plenty of it early on in the case - usually older types like Ditka calling them both idiots or babies, but it was there.

[FireChan]

A respectful team atmosphere somehow doesn't change the amount of talent or coaching talent on the team. I dunno? I'm asking to see the examples of winning teams with "toxic" atmospheres. There aren't many. Maybe that's because they're winning and bad attitudes can be kept at bay, or maybe it's everywhere and it just gets swept under the narrative of the winning team. Probably a combo, plus there is the tight knit nature of the locker room and the sense that even bad secrets are worth keeping if you want to keep a job in the league.

 

Most often if there is any sort of team drama, it's with a player like T.O. or Dez visibly blowing up on field.

 

 

I don't watch much lately but I saw plenty of it early on in the case - usually older types like Ditka calling them both idiots or babies, but it was there.

 

Remember when Hernandez tried to fight Welker and said he'd kill him? There you go, right on a winning team.

 

I think this was just the perfect storm of locker room culture taken a bit too far mixed with a player with mental issues. I doubt Incognito is the worst bully the NFL has ever seen. I also doubt that Martin is the first "depressed" NFL player. Things got carried away in the locker room, as they do in all locker rooms, and Martin was the first player to head for the media. I'm sure some ex and current players have seen and heard worse stuff in the NFL, but they didn't have someone like Martin. They had a person who A. was balanced enough to take it until it ended or B. punched the guy to set some boundaries. I don't fault Martin, because I don't think he could control how he felt, but I think he'll be blackballed from now on. Incognito might just be a big idiot, so I don't fault him either, but now he comes with a lot of bad PR.

[papazoid]

Report: Dolphins fire Kevin O'Neill, trainer implicated in bullying

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/02/19/report-dolphins-fire-kevin-oneill-trainer-implicated-in-bullying/

Edited February 19, 2014 by papazoid

[papazoid]

To no surprise (based on the content of the Ted Wells report), the Dolphins have fired offensive line coach Jim Turner.

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/02/19/dolphins-fire-jim-turner/

[Mr. WEO]

Yet The HC remains.....