Jonathan Martin

[GA BILLS FAN]

While we'll never know, I would bet that Martin might have had a completely different NFL career had he been drafted into a situation that was more "normal" and a lot more supportive. From the report, it sounds like Martin stomached the hazy for a year in the hopes it would end and he could basically "play football". At this point, JM is damaged goods and would take a major investment by a team to try and make the NFL work for him. He would need to be in the right situation, maybe SF, Indy or another team with "JM friends" on it and a group of O-lineman that want him. While I'm not naïve to think that the NFL should be like normal offices, I do think what happened in Miami was on the extreme edge of the NFL locker rooms. I also think that most NFL locker rooms are more like families that poke fun at one another, but deep down have a strong bound and sense of protection for one another. I never played football after high school, but did play other team sports in college and always thought of my team as a second family.

[boyst]

I think Martin becomes a player in this league. I'm definitely in the minority but if the guy has any backbone, he'll use this to grow stronger as a person.

He doesn't have one, it's been shown. And, if he does, I don't think the strongest of men could endure what he will have to in order to make a comeback. Every game he is going to be tested. Every game someone like Joey Porter, Brandon Spikes, Aqib Talib, any Seahawk, will test him. Call him out and test him. Every training camp some young guy trying to make an impact is going to try to light him up, going to test him, going to look for him to make a highlight.

 

That's the way the game is. Martin is as good as done. He's soft and weak, both mentally and physically. Plus, he sucks as a football player.

 

I took the time to read the entire report. In a nutshell, my opinion is that RI, JJ and MP bullied several players and at least one coach (trainer) who were weaker then they were mentally. This entire episode is a straight forward case of bullying. I think the big question isn't whether or not JM was bullied (and the others), it's whether bullying is acceptable in the NFL even though it is not outside the NFL. It comes down to that. A lot of people will argue a 300+ pound man that plays in the NFL should be tougher mentally or he should get out of the league. While I think it's worthy of a debate and while I can respect that some would side with the RI, JJ and MP crowd, I'm not one of them.

It happens on every roster in the NFL, I am sure. To some degree or another it happens in every professional environment out there. There are always forms of this new PC garbage and bullying.

 

It doesn't make it right, it just is what it is and as long as you do not participate in it that's all anyone can do. But, it's going to happen.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Reading the headline of this thread wit hall the Michale Sam stuff, I thought this was bout some other player who admitted he was gay! Sounded like it was someone who was long rumored to be gay.

[NoSaint]

incognitos blow up on twitter the other day just seems all the more foolish seeing all this.... JM doesnt look great for NFL employment, but RI looks like the lesson is totally lost on him.

Edited February 14, 2014 by NoSaint

[26CornerBlitz]

martins blow up on twitter the other day just seems all the more foolish seeing all this.... JM doesnt look great for NFL employment, but RI looks like the lesson is totally lost on him.

 

Wasn't it Incognito who blew up on Twitter?

[GunnerBill]

While we'll never know, I would bet that Martin might have had a completely different NFL career had he been drafted into a situation that was more "normal" and a lot more supportive. From the report, it sounds like Martin stomached the hazy for a year in the hopes it would end and he could basically "play football". At this point, JM is damaged goods and would take a major investment by a team to try and make the NFL work for him. He would need to be in the right situation, maybe SF, Indy or another team with "JM friends" on it and a group of O-lineman that want him. While I'm not naïve to think that the NFL should be like normal offices, I do think what happened in Miami was on the extreme edge of the NFL locker rooms. I also think that most NFL locker rooms are more like families that poke fun at one another, but deep down have a strong bound and sense of protection for one another. I never played football after high school, but did play other team sports in college and always thought of my team as a second family.

 

Again, put much better than I attempted to.

[Rico]

http://deadspin.com/the-messages-from-jonathan-martin-to-his-parents-are-he-1522865373

 

deadspin is highlighting letters between martin and his parents <snip>

More obvious than ever to me that Martin has no business being in the NFL, at least not until he gets some MAJOR help. Whoever green-lit him as being mentally & emotionally stable enough to be a high draft choice really dropped the ball big-time.... I sure wouldn't trust them to re-evaluate him. At least he has a Stanford education, I wish him well in his future endeavors.

[GA BILLS FAN]

He doesn't have one, it's been shown. And, if he does, I don't think the strongest of men could endure what he will have to in order to make a comeback. Every game he is going to be tested. Every game someone like Joey Porter, Brandon Spikes, Aqib Talib, any Seahawk, will test him. Call him out and test him. Every training camp some young guy trying to make an impact is going to try to light him up, going to test him, going to look for him to make a highlight.

 

That's the way the game is. Martin is as good as done. He's soft and weak, both mentally and physically. Plus, he sucks as a football player.

 

 

It happens on every roster in the NFL, I am sure. To some degree or another it happens in every professional environment out there. There are always forms of this new PC garbage and bullying.

 

It doesn't make it right, it just is what it is and as long as you do not participate in it that's all anyone can do. But, it's going to happen.

I get that it happens and I also get that a lot of times PC runs amok. My big issue with what RI, JJ and MP did, beyond the obvious bullying aspect, is that what they did HURT THEIR TEAM. I can't see on any level where their actions would create a better team. The best teams that I've been on and the most successful ones that I've see, the team chemistry and the strength of the bounds between players is almost always the strongest. There are always exceptions, but listen to Jim Kelly, Thurman, Andre and Bruce talk about each other and their other teammates, the environment on that Bills team would never tolerate a Incognito or Pouncey, it just wouldn't happen. I know there are exceptions, where teams don't need to get along to win, but they are exceptions.

[White Linen]

I hope how me and my friends/co-workers text each other never gets out.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Triple Threat

[Kevin]

I hope how me and my friends/co-workers text each other ever gets out.

 

Oh man. Deleting texts now.

[boyst]

I get that it happens and I also get that a lot of times PC runs amok. My big issue with what RI, JJ and MP did, beyond the obvious bullying aspect, is that what they did HURT THEIR TEAM. I can't see on any level where their actions would create a better team. The best teams that I've been on and the most successful ones that I've see, the team chemistry and the strength of the bounds between players is almost always the strongest. There are always exceptions, but listen to Jim Kelly, Thurman, Andre and Bruce talk about each other and their other teammates, the environment on that Bills team would never tolerate a Incognito or Pouncey, it just wouldn't happen. I know there are exceptions, where teams don't need to get along to win, but they are exceptions.

Looking back on it now. Playing the devils harmonica. Did they?

 

They got rid of a bad egg, RI. They got rid of a weak link, JM. They sort of cleaned it up in a messy self implosion, ironically. They made their team stronger even though they eliminated themselves. In a sense, the knuckle dragging NFL player who fills the league might believe they were justified in their actions. The "bully" or what I will call bad egg eliminates himself, he will get cut from a team. But, in his short tenure there he might out the soft spot and get that soft spot out or toughen him up. Being that I believe every NFL player has been the wink leak at some point in his career and therefore hazed, I think all players see it as some sort of rite of passage. They likely see themselves as not affected by this because they overcame it.

 

From PeeWee to High School all the way to the NFL we all experienced this routine to some degree if we played any sport at all. I also think this is why if I were to be in an NFL organization I would prefer players who started their career before High School.

[Mr. WEO]

This report says exactly what it was scripted to conclude. The two principles are NFL outliers--although it now seems that MArtin was the real outlier.

 

Nothing in that report leadds me to believe anything is different in today's NFL locker room than those of a generation ago. Yet now, suddenly, it has become "a story".

 

Both RI and Jm have signifcant issues--mainly a lack of maturity. Neither belongs in the NFL at this point. They aren't suited for it.

[GA BILLS FAN]

I also thought it was interesting the report makes specific mention of Michael Sam's announcement and the environment he will step into when he goes to the NFL. The need for the NFL to ensure that they have a healthy work environment for all players.

 

This report says exactly what it was scripted to conclude. The two principles are NFL outliers--although it now seems that MArtin was the real outlier.

 

Nothing in that report leadds me to believe anything is different in today's NFL locker room than those of a generation ago. Yet now, suddenly, it has become "a story".

 

Both RI and Jm have signifcant issues--mainly a lack of maturity. Neither belongs in the NFL at this point. They aren't suited for it.

 

 

With one BIG distinction. While RI has the capability of creating a hostile workplace that someone like JM can't survive in. JM would never create such a workplace and could survive and potentially flourish in many other locker rooms. So, I would argue, there is no place for someone like RI, while there are several places for someone like JM.

 

Edited February 14, 2014 by TXBILLSFAN

[White Linen]

Oh man. Deleting texts now.

 

The only people that know for sure are the parties involved. I just know that my friends and co-workers joke with each other a ton because we're all sarcastic goof balls. If that stuff ever got out it could be used against me big time to paint a very different picture.

[Mr. WEO]

I also thought it was interesting the report makes specific mention of Michael Sam's announcement and the environment he will step into when he goes to the NFL. The need for the NFL to ensure that they have a healthy work environment for all players.

 

 

 

With one BIG distinction. While RI has the capability of creating a hostile workplace that someone like JM can't survive in. JM would never create such a workplace and could survive and potentially flourish in many other locker rooms. So, I would argue, there is no place for someone like RI, while there are several places for someone like JM.

 

You have no idea if that is true.

 

And, how many other players has RI bullied out of a locker room? And how many other guys are there in the league just like RI (there a few more on the Dolphins alone)? Name one other player who has left any other team under these circumstances.

 

Again, while Incognito is not the norm (he is more of a characature of the meathead NFL bigmouth), Martin is far more rare. He is the only known player to succomb to this locker room culture. In fact, it is certainly likely that others have endured the same or worse treatment over the history of the NFL, yet they never felt the need to document their ordeal.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Mr. WEO

[boyst]

I also thought it was interesting the report makes specific mention of Michael Sam's announcement and the environment he will step into when he goes to the NFL. The need for the NFL to ensure that they have a healthy work environment for all players.

Maybe, again, it's just me but I see the Sam issue much differently.

 

Sam is coming in to the NFL already out. He is coming in to a team with the 'issue' on the table. Sure, there will be some that do not agree with it but those tough guys won't have the same ability to react since the wind is out of the sail. Kerry Rhodes was outted publicly and reports say his teammates all knew his preference. Maybe he told his teammates, maybe not, but in the case where it is flat out the truth, known and on the table you take away the fuel for the fire. Maybe it is similar to the whole thing our mothers told us, "laugh it off, and just realize they're words" kind of thing. If you sit there and fight back or resist the name calling it only makes you a bigger target. If you sit there and laugh it off and say "yeah, I suck..." then you let yourself be a part of the process and it will continue. But, if you come out and go down the road Sam is seemingly taking you come out, address it and let it be. We will see, but if he starts giving a lot of interviews, if he starts going Chris Klewe style he is going to get some backlash and lose some stock value.

 

Personally, I feel there was no need for Sam to say anything. To me and many people it makes no difference what you are. But, if he starts going out there and making statements to OutQ, GLAAD, and other such places he is going to start to see some resistance.

[GA BILLS FAN]

 

 

You have no idea if that is true.

 

And, how many other players has RI bullied out of a locker room? And how many other guys are there in the league just like RI (there a few more on the Dolphins alone)? Name one other player who has left any other team under these circumstances.

 

Again, while Incognito is not the norm (he is more of a characature of the meathead NFL bigmouth), Martin is far more rare. He is the only known player to succomb to this locker room culture. In fact, it is certainly likely that others have endured the same or worse treatment over the history of the NFL, yet they never felt the need to document their ordeal.

 

I don't agree. I guy like JM would fit in, he might not ever be a team leader, but no way would he create a toxic locker room, no way. As for RI, I'm sure there are a lot of RI's in the NFL, just like there are a lot of idiots in the real world.

[mattsox]

He concluded that a NFL lockeroom is a NFL lockeroom.

 

http://profootballta...tin-and-others/

 

Groundbreaking stuff!

[Mr. WEO]

I don't agree. I guy like JM would fit in, he might not ever be a team leader, but no way would he create a toxic locker room, no way. As for RI, I'm sure there are a lot of RI's in the NFL, just like there are a lot of idiots in the real world.

 

No one is suggesing that JM would make a toxic locker room.

 

I don't know that JM would fit in in any locker room at this point. What happens the next time a guy breaks his balls a bit? What happens when the next team benches/replaces him for substandard performance? He rolls up into fetal pose? Gets on twitter to tell the world his latest story? Heads back ("relapses"?) into bully rehab?

[GA BILLS FAN]

 

Maybe, again, it's just me but I see the Sam issue much differently.

 

Sam is coming in to the NFL already out. He is coming in to a team with the 'issue' on the table. Sure, there will be some that do not agree with it but those tough guys won't have the same ability to react since the wind is out of the sail. Kerry Rhodes was outted publicly and reports say his teammates all knew his preference. Maybe he told his teammates, maybe not, but in the case where it is flat out the truth, known and on the table you take away the fuel for the fire. Maybe it is similar to the whole thing our mothers told us, "laugh it off, and just realize they're words" kind of thing. If you sit there and fight back or resist the name calling it only makes you a bigger target. If you sit there and laugh it off and say "yeah, I suck..." then you let yourself be a part of the process and it will continue. But, if you come out and go down the road Sam is seemingly taking you come out, address it and let it be. We will see, but if he starts giving a lot of interviews, if he starts going Chris Klewe style he is going to get some backlash and lose some stock value.

 

Personally, I feel there was no need for Sam to say anything. To me and many people it makes no difference what you are. But, if he starts going out there and making statements to OutQ, GLAAD, and other such places he is going to start to see some resistance.

I agree with a lot of what you said. I think Sam will be fine if he plays football and doesn't try and make his being gay some sort of platform. The media will get in the way, but there is a way to handle it. The report mentioned Sam in the context of ensuring the NFL locker room was a suitable environment.

 

 

 

 

No one is suggesing that JM would make a toxic locker room.

 

I don't know that JM would fit in in any locker room at this point. What happens the next time a guy breaks his balls a bit? What happens when the next team benches/replaces him for substandard performance? He rolls up into fetal pose? Gets on twitter to tell the world his latest story? Heads back ("relapses"?) into bully rehab?

 

Ok, I misunderstood your post than. When you said in your post that I had "no idea if that was true", you were replying to my post that said JM wouldn't create a toxic environment, so I assumed you thought he would create one.