Discussion of The Bills Fan Alliance concept

[Mr. WEO]

How so? What exactly has the series accomplished for Rogers except revealing how tepid Toronto fans' support is for the NFL product?

 

The tepid support is for the "Buffalo Bills". I'm guessing they would support a Toronto NFL team.

 

No one in Canada was talking about buying the Bills, or any NFL team, until Ralph pimped out the Bills to the Rogers. Now there are multiple potential buyer publically identified--and talk of an NFL stadium project.

 

Nice to see you've finally dropped the "Toronto games brought vital regionalization to the Bills" nonsense though.

 

I never said that at all. I said if someone swooped in and offered 150m OVER the market value.

 

And of course, Ralph can stipulate what happens to the team in his will that has little to do with his wife. I'm sure it was figured out a lone time ago, like his very close friend Lamar Hunt did. Hunt devised an innovative series of trusts divided between siblings. The point is that he figured out a way to take a lot of the guesswork out of dividing up the loot as well as keeping the team in KC, not that Ralph is going to divide it up for his wife and siblings (although that is possible, despite proclamations the family doesn't want it.

 

That is what Ralph is doing. It is NOT just going to go to the highest bidder.

 

Even that makes no sense. The team is not going to be sold for a 20% premium.

 

Hunt was never going to move the Chiefs--why bring up "he figured out a .....way to keep the Chiefs in KC"?

 

It doesn't matter what is in Ralph's will, the sale of the team is approved (or rejected) by the other owners.

 

 

Love the passion of Bills fans, but not sure what this accomplishes outside of showing how much fans care about the team. Have no idea how a charity can make an interest free loan to a billionaire to purchase an NFL team. You can't even take a loan from your own 401k without paying interest back to yourself. Would much rather see someone set up an investment vehicle where Bills fans can invest money with a fund manager with the express purpose of purchasing an interest in the team. Kind of like an endowment fund with the express purpose of buying a minority interest in the Bills. Charity for billionaires won't fly.

 

Good post.

 

The way it was explained to me is that this is a way for Ralph to enjoy the value of his asset without the tax liability. He uses the Bills like a piggy bank, pulling equity out of the team and making interest payments along the way. Meanwhile Ralph stashes the money in shelters. Then when he does go, the Bills are nothing but lenders notes and Ralph's estate has nothing left to tax.

 

Like I said, it's a friend's theory. I guess we'll find out eventually if he was right.

 

PTR

 

Ralph loaned Davis money what, 50 years ago?

 

Ask your friend the following:

 

How does an individual (Ralph, in this case) "shelter" a billion dollars in loaned money?

 

If he keeps his money under some corporate entity, how does he (or the company) avoid defaulting on the loan when he's dead?

 

For that matter, how does he get a billion dollar loan from a bank without any business plan or reason for the loan? The bank or banks (or whoever else you are hinting at) will certainly want to know how a man in his 80's and then 90's plans on paying back a massive loan before they approve of it--no matter what he is putting up as collateral.

 

No matter how any of these scenarios end--at no point does the team have "zero value". In fact, in all scenarios, the team has to be sold square every one.

 

And you don't think the family doesn't get audited after he boxes? The IRS is aware that there are few legal income "shelters".

 

It's a goofy theory.

[Coach Tuesday]

It's a combination of some insider information, knowing a little, reading a lot, and common sense.

 

Even if I never heard anything about it, which I have, I would know for sure that it is not automatically going to the highest bidder.

 

That doesn't mean it's not going to eventually go to that highest bidder, of course that is possible. But it's not going to just be auctioned. Buffalo and its groups are going to have every chance to buy the team.

 

Personally, I have very little worry that the team is going to be moved. I don't believe that it is blind optimism on my part. It's certainly possible, IMO, but highly unlikely. The NFL wants the team to stay.

 

The only thing that makes absolutely zero sense, to me, is Ralph just letting it go.

 

I too am not worried about the team moving. I'm confident it stays. But I can also tell you that Ralph had opportunities already to ensure that the team would remain here, and passed. That's not to say he hasn't or won't make other arrangements to steer things in that direction.

[Mr. WEO]

It's a combination of some insider information, knowing a little, reading a lot, and common sense.

 

Even if I never heard anything about it, which I have, I would know for sure that it is not automatically going to the highest bidder.

 

That doesn't mean it's not going to eventually go to that highest bidder, of course that is possible. But it's not going to just be auctioned. Buffalo and its groups are going to have every chance to buy the team.

 

Personally, I have very little worry that the team is going to be moved. I don't believe that it is blind optimism on my part. It's certainly possible, IMO, but highly unlikely. The NFL wants the team to stay.

 

The only thing that makes absolutely zero sense, to me, is Ralph just letting it go.

 

Says who? Do you think the other 31 owners would all block a move to Toronto--a massive urban/upscale market in another country?

 

I don't see how that's possible, given that this is the only feasable international destination for a league clamoring for one. I would bet they want international more than they want LA.

[Kelly the Dog]

The tepid support is for the "Buffalo Bills". I'm guessing they would support a Toronto NFL team.

 

No one in Canada was talking about buying the Bills, or any NFL team, until Ralph pimped out the Bills to the Rogers. Now there are multiple potential buyer publically identified--and talk of an NFL stadium project.

 

Nice to see you've finally dropped the "Toronto games brought vital regionalization to the Bills" nonsense though.

 

 

 

Even that makes no sense. The team is not going to be sold for a 20% premium.

 

Hunt was never going to move the Chiefs--why bring up "he figured out a .....way to keep the Chiefs in KC"?

 

It doesn't matter what is in Ralph's will, the sale of the team is approved (or rejected) by the other owners.

 

1. The Browns were, that's what started this conversation.

2. They could have been if the three kids started fighting over them, which was why he did what he did.

3. Then you know nothing about this process and the sale of the team and I'm through with this.

 

Says who?

The Commissioner for starters.

[Mr. WEO]

1. The Browns were, that's what started this conversation.

2. They could have been if the three kids started fighting over them, which was why he did what he did.

3. Then you know nothing about this process and the sale of the team and I'm through with this.

 

 

The Commissioner for starters.

 

Commisioner works for the 32. He doesn't get a vote. He reports the vote.

 

The Chiefs were never moving, period. Fighting children or not.

 

"The process" ends when the owners approve a new owner. Your inside info can't change NFL rules.

[Buftex]

Still like the idea, but somehow, I have this strange feeling the NFL will put the kibosh on this, the more I think about it.

 

It could open up the doors to other franchises doing the same thing. I love the idea, don't get me wrong...but, if it were sucessful, it could be seen as putting too much power over the location of the franchise in the hands of people who don't live in the area, won't likely attend more than a game a season in Buffalo...in the end, 170million dollars just wouldn't cover all the money the NFL could percieve itself to lose by such an arraingement. I don't know, maybe the NFL would have no say in it...but they would have the power to veto any ownership.

 

I will say, I agree with BuffaloRebound about the fact that it would get a lot of attention...maybe the kind we would need to get NFL fan sentiment to take up the cause of the NFL not allowing Buffalo to go Bill-less any time soon...the way everyone is so charmed by the notion of the Green Bay Packers... the Bills really aren't much different...they just don't have the long tradition that the Packers have...thought 54 years is nothing to skoff at.

[dwight in philly]

Commisioner works for the 32. He doesn't get a vote. He reports the vote.

 

The Chiefs were never moving, period. Fighting children or not.

 

"The process" ends when the owners approve a new owner. Your inside info can't change NFL rules.

why the pushback?? i think the idea cannot do any harm.. the negativity on here gets nauseating at times..

[Mr. WEO]

why the pushback?? i think the idea cannot do any harm.. the negativity on here gets nauseating at times..

 

It's not pushback. I said it's a nice idea. Go back and catch up.

[BillnutinHouston]

No one in Canada was talking about buying the Bills, or any NFL team, until Ralph pimped out the Bills to the Rogers.

 

That does not a correlation make.

[Mr. WEO]

That does not a correlation make.

 

Pure coincidence, right?

 

Unconvincing.

[BillnutinHouston]

Nice to see you've finally dropped the "Toronto games brought vital regionalization to the Bills" though.

To clarify, I've been a consistent supporter of the Bills' regionalization efforts, I understand and support their obvious need to mine the Toronto market, and I urge Bills fans to drop their customary short-sightedness and insularity when it comes to the Bills trying to expand their market. But that's a long way from declaring the Toronto series successful in these regards. I'm quite sure I've never done that.

 

 

I don't see how that's possible

Well then, it appears to be settled.

[dwight in philly]

It's not pushback. I said it's a nice idea. Go back and catch up.

nice attitude.. you are the best "weo"..look up pompous and "witty guy" in the dictionary.. Edited February 5, 2014 by dwight in philly

[uncle flap]

Yes, the owners have to approve a sale, but they can't handpick a buyer. One can argue that they could indefinitely reject ownership groups willing to keep the Bills in Buffalo, but IF there are viable buyers willing to keep the Bills in Buffalo, I don't see the owners blocking a move to do so over and over without catching substantial heat.

 

Like I mentioned upthread, there's something to be said for a team operating in an established market - albeit small. According to Forbes, the market generates more revenue than almost any other North American franchise does per capita. So while moving the team to Toronto stands to make more money overall (and while likely, it's not guaranteed), the NFL would stand to alienate some of its most devoted fans, while walking away from essentially guaranteed continued support.

 

 

I also want to add that the guys behind the BFA were initially asked to "pump their brakes" after their unveiling back in 2012 by the firm advising them on NFL bylaws and other policies and procedures while they continued to develop their plan. The fact that they are back in the media publicizing their plan speaks to the plan's viability.

 

This isn't just a pie in the sky idea thrown together on a lark. Time will tell if the plan plays a part in keeping the Bills in Buffalo, but I think some here are conflating "it can't work" with "it won't work." Many of the world's largest corporations are increasingly relying on crowd sourcing. Why shouldn't the NFL "give the people what they want?"

Edited February 6, 2014 by uncle flap

[RealityCheck]

This thread has revealed something to me. Ralph would be insane to have invested heavily in the team's roster over the last decade. 4 straight Super Bowl losses have set the hook deeply in all of our throats, and we keep swallowing more line. Ralph has underinvested to the point that he has the NFL forking over hard cash for small market teams, he sells out home games to hockey fans, he has Schumer and Cuomo trying to give him tax dollars for renovations, all under the guise of a scarecrow that may or may not cast the team into Californication. Now, a bunch of fans are gonna try to raise 170 million dollars to hand over to the latest member of the billionaire boys' club, INTEREST FREE, because they believe that a snake bitten football team is going to leave for more expensive pastures. The cost of acquiring new fans in a new zip code is going to make the move non-viable if that zip code is not in Western NY. The Bills are here to stay in Buffalo, even if we donated 170 million to help them leave.

[rockpile]

And that's the difference. Instead of tax dollars, it would be a fund set up specifically and solely for one purpose, to give interest free loans to the Bills. It's entirely voluntary participation from 'investors'. It would have to be extremely transparent. Tax filings, annual reports, prospectuses, investment guidelines. Much more transparent than what goes on in getting funding from public tax revenue.

 

So for New Yorkers, after already being taxed 6 ways to Sunday, we could GIVE interest free money to millionaires to supplement the extortion by the state.

 

Emotionally, it would be great to contribute. I want to feel like I did very thing I could to show my desire to keep the Bills in Buffalo.

 

In reality, on 4.15.14 I will be sending more than $100 to NYS. Let THEM forward it to One Bills Drive.

 

just my $0.02

[Coach Tuesday]

This thread has revealed something to me. Ralph would be insane to have invested heavily in the team's roster over the last decade. 4 straight Super Bowl losses have set the hook deeply in all of our throats, and we keep swallowing more line. Ralph has underinvested to the point that he has the NFL forking over hard cash for small market teams, he sells out home games to hockey fans, he has Schumer and Cuomo trying to give him tax dollars for renovations, all under the guise of a scarecrow that may or may not cast the team into Californication. Now, a bunch of fans are gonna try to raise 170 million dollars to hand over to the latest member of the billionaire boys' club, INTEREST FREE, because they believe that a snake bitten football team is going to leave for more expensive pastures. The cost of acquiring new fans in a new zip code is going to make the move non-viable if that zip code is not in Western NY. The Bills are here to stay in Buffalo, even if we donated 170 million to help them leave.

 

[PromoTheRobot]

 

Ralph loaned Davis money what, 50 years ago?

 

Ask your friend the following:

 

How does an individual (Ralph, in this case) "shelter" a billion dollars in loaned money?

 

If he keeps his money under some corporate entity, how does he (or the company) avoid defaulting on the loan when he's dead?

 

For that matter, how does he get a billion dollar loan from a bank without any business plan or reason for the loan? The bank or banks (or whoever else you are hinting at) will certainly want to know how a man in his 80's and then 90's plans on paying back a massive loan before they approve of it--no matter what he is putting up as collateral.

 

No matter how any of these scenarios end--at no point does the team have "zero value". In fact, in all scenarios, the team has to be sold square every one.

 

And you don't think the family doesn't get audited after he boxes? The IRS is aware that there are few legal income "shelters".

 

It's a goofy theory.

 

You are assuming he took it all in one lump sum. What if he did 30 million here, 40 million there, over his lifetime? Imagine if you owned an asset that was worth millions but you couldn't cash out unless you sold it....or you cash out a little at a time through loans?

 

Not saying this happened. Just a friend who says he knows a guy who was in a position to know what Ralph was doing since the 80's.

 

PTR

[GG]

You are assuming he took it all in one lump sum. What if he did 30 million here, 40 million there, over his lifetime? Imagine if you owned an asset that was worth millions but you couldn't cash out unless you sold it....or you cash out a little at a time through loans?

 

Not saying this happened. Just a friend who says he knows a guy who was in a position to know what Ralph was doing since the 80's.

 

PTR

 

There's a big difference between getting liquid cash out of an illiquid asset to support your lifestyle and using these types of arrangements to shelter estate taxes. It's almost a given that Wilson uses the Bills as his checkbook. But that could actually make his estate situation much worse if he still has all those loans outstanding. Estate tax shouldn't be much of an issue immediately, as long as his wife is still alive.

 

But as KtD alluded, I'm guessing he has a plan in place to pass the team along

[Mr. WEO]

To clarify, I've been a consistent supporter of the Bills' regionalization efforts, I understand and support their obvious need to mine the Toronto market, and I urge Bills fans to drop their customary short-sightedness and insularity when it comes to the Bills trying to expand their market. But that's a long way from declaring the Toronto series successful in these regards. I'm quite sure I've never done that.

 

 

I must be mistaking you for another BillniutinHouston who has declared exactly that many times...

 

"The Toronto series has successfully incorporated TO into the Buffalo football market, meaning the Bills never have to compete with a separate Toronto NFL team. The TO series has massively bolstered Buffalo's "market",

 

"what I am arguing is, by physically playing in Toronto and by striking that deal, the Bills staked claim to that market FOR THE NEXT OWNER. By cementing the Buffalo-Toronto relationship, you make the potential future value of the franchise much greater, thereby improving ROI for the next prospective owner."

 

"I think most recognize that capturing the Toronto market makes Buffalo much more economically powerful and therefore more attractive as home to an NFL club for the new owner, than if Russ hadn't captured Toronto via this series. I firmly believe the Toronto series helps Buffalo achieve the latter scenario. "

 

THAT BillnutinHouston argues firmly that the Bills physically playing in Toronto has massively succeeded in regards to Buffalo expanding its market...

 

 

nice attitude.. you are the best "weo"..look up pompous and "witty guy" in the dictionary..

 

You wander in late and say I don't support the sentiment of the plan. I do and have said so. I really don't know what your going on about.

 

You are assuming he took it all in one lump sum. What if he did 30 million here, 40 million there, over his lifetime? Imagine if you owned an asset that was worth millions but you couldn't cash out unless you sold it....or you cash out a little at a time through loans?

 

Not saying this happened. Just a friend who says he knows a guy who was in a position to know what Ralph was doing since the 80's.

 

PTR

 

Ralph has been pocketing 30 million here, 40 million there for years--as profits for owning the Bills.

 

Anyway, if I was mortgaging my sole asset to the hilt, even over time, it would be clear that I would have to pay the loan back at some point. Also, since the Bills is an incorporated entity, I doubt that Ralph has been taking personal loans using the incorporated company as collateral.

 

You still haven't explained how the team's valuer goes to zero upon Ralph's death. Ask your friend tonight.

[SRQ_BillsFan]

 

 

You are assuming he took it all in one lump sum. What if he did 30 million here, 40 million there, over his lifetime? Imagine if you owned an asset that was worth millions but you couldn't cash out unless you sold it....or you cash out a little at a time through loans?

 

Not saying this happened. Just a friend who says he knows a guy who was in a position to know what Ralph was doing since the 80's.

 

PTR

 

 

To me this just seems absurd, and contradicts your post through the years. Which I may not always agree with but certainly show that you are intelligent. This just seems so far out there and the nfl and banks for that matter would have checks and balances against this. Even if he was able to do it, the franchise has value and the banks would be smart enough to have the franchise as collateral and would be paid back when the team was sold. It would still have value, just not to Ralph's estate.

 

This just seems so far out there, and as I said, not something I would expect from you. So it does make me wonder if you have an actual valid source or if it is truly something a friend of yours has speculated on? Because it just seems to far fetched to even be true. If simply speculation I just can't see how you would continue to defend it as even possible. Which does make me think maybe I am missing something, but I can't see what?

 

In any case I hope that the initial sale is listed as highest bidder that plans to keep the team in the city. I am/was shocked that Cleveland had so many premium bidders that would keep the team in the city of Cleveland. Just shows what a jewel one of these franchises are and what we may be up against.

 

I think I am concerned that there are little things that Ralph could be doing to help keep the team in Buffalo without selling it that he is not doing. Like the stadium, did they really believe the Ralph was fine? Why not have looked at a new one that would have helped a new owner? Why did the cost of renovations drop so much? Did they want to spend as little as possible because the teams future in the area is suspect at best? Just seems like the money may have been better spent on a new stadium, especially had they stayed at the $200+ mil originally discussed. And even at $200+ mill if the Ralph is the long term answer, wouldn't that have helped to satisfy a new owner (although I am not sure what was left out)?

Just seems to me that there could be some things the Bills could be doing, but are not.

 

Anyway, go Bills!!!