Discussion of The Bills Fan Alliance concept

[Mr. WEO]

a] because no group is going to be putting every dollar they have up. The local group is going to have Golisano or Pegula or Rich Jr or Millstein or someone with billions. and b] the new TV deal is so much that the teams start out virtually making money. I'd have to look up the numbers but it's likely 150 m per team by now, or will be more than that soon.

 

To WEO, I will bet you $1000 right now that the Wilson family is not just going to automatically go with the highest bidder and there is definitely a plan in place to keep the team in Buffalo. Regardless of quotes in the paper. To me, the only way it's not going to be someone with local ties is if someone swoops in and bids $150 million more than that going rate, and then, PERHAPS, this extra $150 mil is there. That rarely happens.

 

If Ralph was interested in keeping the Bills in Buffalo, he would have sold to a younger owner years ago, say, when he was in his 80's--when you could have a team for a few hundred million less.. No local buyer will be able to finance the team and a new stadium. No municipal body is ever going to fund a new stadium in Buffalo.

 

If anything, he has made the possibility of the Bills moving to Toronto infinitely more likely with his sellout to the Rogers family. How's that for regionalization?

 

The 150 million is not going to be there. That being the case, the owners are not going to accept a bid that they feel is signficantly below market value no matter who is bidding or where they are from.

 

I don't think the Bills have a million fans, much less a million fans willing to put up money like this.

 

That said my friend thinks Ralph has a plan to keep the Bills in Buffalo for years after his passing...it's called untanging his estate.

 

He thinks Ralph already borrowed all the value out if the franchise so when the time comes the Bills will not be worth a dime. It will be all debt with lenders fighting over it. It's a brilliant move.

 

PTR

 

So...he "borrowed" nearly a billion dollars and put it under his mattress, using the Bills as collateral. And when he dies, the value of the Bills is zero because....he borrowed a billion dollars?

 

If he is the sole guarantor of the loan (none of his heirs co-signed), the debt dies with him. If there is corporation that owes the debt, then they will settle the debt by.....selling the team! Or the lender(s) will take posession of the team.

[Kelly the Dog]

If Ralph was interested in keeping the Bills in Buffalo, he would have sold to a younger owner years ago, say, when he was in his 80's--when you could have a team for a few hundred million less.. No local buyer will be able to finance the team and a new stadium. No municipal body is ever going to fund a new stadium in Buffalo.

 

If anything, he has made the possibility of the Bills moving to Toronto infinitely more likely with his sellout to the Rogers family. How's that for regionalization?

 

The 150 million is not going to be there. That being the case, the owners are not going to accept a bid that they feel is signficantly below market value no matter who is bidding or where they are from.

The first sentence is wrong and ridiculous. He wanted to keep the team in Buffalo and always did, for over 50 years. He can mostly assure that the team will be kept here by how his will is laid out, and that is exactly what is going to happen (again, unless someone has an outlandish bid and even then it still might not happen.

 

Pegula easily could afford the Bills. Rich easily could afford the Bills. There are other factions in play as well. The league wants the team to stay in Buffalo. I am not at all suggesting the the league is going to accept a bid significantly below market value and don't know where that is coming from. I have no idea and neither do you whether the league would accept that money or whether it is going to be there.

 

The chances of someone coming in and offering to pay 150m MORE than market value AND pay the exorbitant relocation fee AND have a city and stadium waiting AND get approval from the league is likely pretty small.

[Coach Tuesday]

If Ralph was interested in keeping the Bills in Buffalo, he would have sold to a younger owner years ago, say, when he was in his 80's--when you could have a team for a few hundred million less.. No local buyer will be able to finance the team and a new stadium. No municipal body is ever going to fund a new stadium in Buffalo.

 

If anything, he has made the possibility of the Bills moving to Toronto infinitely more likely with his sellout to the Rogers family. How's that for regionalization?

 

The 150 million is not going to be there. That being the case, the owners are not going to accept a bid that they feel is signficantly below market value no matter who is bidding or where they are from.

 

 

 

So...he "borrowed" nearly a billion dollars and put it under his mattress, using the Bills as collateral. And when he dies, the value of the Bills is zero because....he borrowed a billion dollars?

 

If he is the sole guarantor of the loan (none of his heirs co-signed), the debt dies with him. If there is corporation that owes the debt, then they will settle the debt by.....selling the team! Or the lender(s) will take posession of the team.

 

Yeah this is somewhat wrong. The State and County will build a stadium to entice someone to keep the team here (or offer a ton of cash to partially subsidize it) - you watch. The politics of refusing to do so are suicidal.

 

The first sentence is wrong and ridiculous. He wanted to keep the team in Buffalo and always did, for over 50 years. He can mostly assure that the team will be kept here by how his will is laid out, and that is exactly what is going to happen (again, unless someone has an outlandish bid and even then it still might not happen.

 

Pegula easily could afford the Bills. Rich easily could afford the Bills. There are other factions in play as well. The league wants the team to stay in Buffalo. I am not at all suggesting the the league is going to accept a bid significantly below market value and don't know where that is coming from. I have no idea and neither do you whether the league would accept that money or whether it is going to be there.

 

The chances of someone coming in and offering to pay 150m MORE than market value AND pay the exorbitant relocation fee AND have a city and stadium waiting AND get approval from the league is likely pretty small.

 

This is also somewhat wrong. Ralph already has had opportunities to ensure that the team stays here and he has declined to pursue them.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Coach Tuesday

[Kelly the Dog]

 

This is also somewhat wrong. Ralph already has had opportunities to ensure that the team stays here and he has declined to pursue them.

Ralph has kept the team in Buffalo for 54 consecutive years and I guarantee is doing something to keep them in Buffalo after his death. It's inarguable that he wanted to keep the team in Buffalo. He wanted to own the team his entire lifetime and he should have. To say that if he really wanted to keep the team in Buffalo he should have sold it 20 years ago is like saying if you want to keep your wife happy you should convince her to leave you and go marry a younger, richer, better looking guy than you.

[PromoTheRobot]

So...he "borrowed" nearly a billion dollars and put it under his mattress, using the Bills as collateral. And when he dies, the value of the Bills is zero because....he borrowed a billion dollars?

 

If he is the sole guarantor of the loan (none of his heirs co-signed), the debt dies with him. If there is corporation that owes the debt, then they will settle the debt by.....selling the team! Or the lender(s) will take posession of the team.

 

The way it was explained to me is that this is a way for Ralph to enjoy the value of his asset without the tax liability. He uses the Bills like a piggy bank, pulling equity out of the team and making interest payments along the way. Meanwhile Ralph stashes the money in shelters. Then when he does go, the Bills are nothing but lenders notes and Ralph's estate has nothing left to tax.

 

Like I said, it's a friend's theory. I guess we'll find out eventually if he was right.

 

PTR

[Mr. WEO]

The first sentence is wrong and ridiculous. He wanted to keep the team in Buffalo and always did, for over 50 years. He can mostly assure that the team will be kept here by how his will is laid out, and that is exactly what is going to happen (again, unless someone has an outlandish bid and even then it still might not happen.

 

Pegula easily could afford the Bills. Rich easily could afford the Bills. There are other factions in play as well. The league wants the team to stay in Buffalo. I am not at all suggesting the the league is going to accept a bid significantly below market value and don't know where that is coming from. I have no idea and neither do you whether the league would accept that money or whether it is going to be there.

 

The chances of someone coming in and offering to pay 150m MORE than market value AND pay the exorbitant relocation fee AND have a city and stadium waiting AND get approval from the league is likely pretty small.

 

Ralph can't will the team to another owner, other than his wife.

 

The 150 million from the fans is never going to happen. I never said someone was going to offer more 150 million more than market value--you said someone may offer that much less than the tema is worth and this fantasy fund would seal the deal for the low bidder.

 

Toronto owner group may argue they aren't relocating the team. One possible buyer recently said he would look into expanding a soccer stadium into an NFL acceptable building. Even Bon Jovi, loudly claining his desire to be an owner, is allying himself with the Canadians.

 

Ralph opened a door he never had to open. Now the Philisitines have come through the door and they like the football team, please. Eh?

 

Yeah this is somewhat wrong. The State and County will build a stadium to entice someone to keep the team here (or offer a ton of cash to partially subsidize it) - you watch. The politics of refusing to do so are suicidal.

 

 

The state and local government didn't want to shell out the relatively tiny sum to refurbish the Ralph (again). They aren't going to pony up half a billion or more to then build a new stadium. No politician east of Rochester will lift a finger to send that money to Buffalo--there's nothing in it for them. They will spin it as "giving millions to the 1%" and that's all it will take for them to find cover.

[Buftex]

Finances are not my thing, but I would be willing to donate, if this ever did come to fruition. As dubs points out, this is a great way for Bills fans living both in and out of WNY (I am an ex-WNYer myself) to put their money where their heart is, rather than passing the costs on to WNYers who don't care about this issue... my biggest concern is how sustainable is this? Say they raise the stated 170 million (which seems like a small amount in the bigger scheme of things...but like I said, I am not a financial guy), and the new ownership group promises to keep the team in town for X amount of time...they keep their promise...do we need to raise another 170 million every time that deadline approaches?

[BillnutinHouston]

If anything, he has made the possibility of the Bills moving to Toronto infinitely more likely with his sellout to the Rogers family.

How so? What exactly has the series accomplished for Rogers except revealing how tepid Toronto fans' support is for the NFL product?

[Kelly the Dog]

Ralph can't will the team to another owner, other than his wife.

 

The 150 million from the fans is never going to happen. I never said someone was going to offer more 150 million more than market value--you said someone may offer that much less than the tema is worth and this fantasy fund would seal the deal for the low bidder.

 

I never said that at all. I said if someone swooped in and offered 150m OVER the market value.

 

And of course, Ralph can stipulate what happens to the team in his will that has little to do with his wife. I'm sure it was figured out a lone time ago, like his very close friend Lamar Hunt did. Hunt devised an innovative series of trusts divided between siblings. The point is that he figured out a way to take a lot of the guesswork out of dividing up the loot as well as keeping the team in KC, not that Ralph is going to divide it up for his wife and siblings (although that is possible, despite proclamations the family doesn't want it.

 

That is what Ralph is doing. It is NOT just going to go to the highest bidder.

[BuffaloRebound]

The way it was explained to me is that this is a way for Ralph to enjoy the value of his asset without the tax liability. He uses the Bills like a piggy bank, pulling equity out of the team and making interest payments along the way. Meanwhile Ralph stashes the money in shelters. Then when he does go, the Bills are nothing but lenders notes and Ralph's estate has nothing left to tax.

 

Like I said, it's a friend's theory. I guess we'll find out eventually if he was right.

 

PTR

 

NFL has specific rules on how much money can be borrowed against the value of a franchise. I believe the number is $150 million. Maybe Ralph was grand-fathered out of this rule, but I highly doubt it.

[BuffaloRebound]

Love the passion of Bills fans, but not sure what this accomplishes outside of showing how much fans care about the team. Have no idea how a charity can make an interest free loan to a billionaire to purchase an NFL team. You can't even take a loan from your own 401k without paying interest back to yourself. Would much rather see someone set up an investment vehicle where Bills fans can invest money with a fund manager with the express purpose of purchasing an interest in the team. Kind of like an endowment fund with the express purpose of buying a minority interest in the Bills. Charity for billionaires won't fly.

[May Day 10]

and the new ownership group promises to keep the team in town for X amount of time...they keep their promise...do we need to raise another 170 million every time that deadline approaches?

 

The way I see it, we need to weather the storm over the next 5-10 years. We need to get through the unprecedented transition of the Bills from Mr Wilson's ownership. Then the issue of RWS will come to the forefront. It will likely need 2-5 hundred million in renovations in order to fully "rebuild" it to provide more "modern" comfort for fans, as well as ensure structural integrity. Or they will have to build a new stadium. Any meaningful contribution from EC/NY will likely come with some sort of strong, long term lease.

 

Additionally, the NFL may be different by 5-10 years. Maybe they will have to expand by then and all our "enemies" will have teams. Maybe (I believe so) the bubble will burst a bit and the NFL will fall back to Earth and Buffalo wont be as outgrown.

 

Im also buying in on all the progress I see in Buffalo in the past 5 years. I think we could see things moving in the other direction here within 10 years.

 

 

This transition from Wilson is a hell of a pickle. Ideally, the man remains healthy for another decade.

Edited February 5, 2014 by May Day 10

[GA BILLS FAN]

Love the passion of Bills fans, but not sure what this accomplishes outside of showing how much fans care about the team. Have no idea how a charity can make an interest free loan to a billionaire to purchase an NFL team. You can't even take a loan from your own 401k without paying interest back to yourself. Would much rather see someone set up an investment vehicle where Bills fans can invest money with a fund manager with the express purpose of purchasing an interest in the team. Kind of like an endowment fund with the express purpose of buying a minority interest in the Bills. Charity for billionaires won't fly.

+1 I think this demonstrates the passion the fans have for team and keeping it in Buffalo, but it's not practical in any type of open bidding situation. I suspect, however, given comment Goodell has made that there is indeed a plan in place that will allow team to stay in Buffalo if a buyer can be found (which according to Kelly, there is at least a couple). I don't think the NFL would ever put the team up for auction (to highest bidder). I do believe the NFL and the other owners want to keep the team in Buffalo, while that seems at odds with the "money hungry" label those guys get. I think they appreciate the diversity it brings to the sport, both in terms of demographics as well as geography. Again, if I hang my hat on any one comment, it was when Goodell was here a couple years back and said "there is a plan, that is consistent with Mr Wilson's wishes and it is best for WNY". -- or something to that affect.

[ALF]

I just wonder if the offer to build a downtown stadium is for real. That would keep a new owner happy.

[Rubes]

I never said that at all. I said if someone swooped in and offered 150m OVER the market value.

 

And of course, Ralph can stipulate what happens to the team in his will that has little to do with his wife. I'm sure it was figured out a lone time ago, like his very close friend Lamar Hunt did. Hunt devised an innovative series of trusts divided between siblings. The point is that he figured out a way to take a lot of the guesswork out of dividing up the loot as well as keeping the team in KC, not that Ralph is going to divide it up for his wife and siblings (although that is possible, despite proclamations the family doesn't want it.

 

That is what Ralph is doing. It is NOT just going to go to the highest bidder.

 

You say this with such confidence, but of course we're wondering if you just suspect this, or if you have some sort of insider information about it? No need to reveal sources, but a curious public wants to know.

[GG]

The way it was explained to me is that this is a way for Ralph to enjoy the value of his asset without the tax liability. He uses the Bills like a piggy bank, pulling equity out of the team and making interest payments along the way. Meanwhile Ralph stashes the money in shelters. Then when he does go, the Bills are nothing but lenders notes and Ralph's estate has nothing left to tax.

 

Like I said, it's a friend's theory. I guess we'll find out eventually if he was right.

 

PTR

 

Theory doesn't hold water - a) NFL greatly limits debts against the team's value. The only exceptions are for stadium construction, and even in that, the NFL is greatly involved; b) Who are the lenders that have lent Ralph couple of hundred million? What happens to the loan once he passes? c) This scheme does not avoid the payout that Wilson's heirs would have to pay. If they borrowed up the team to the hilt to avoid estate taxes, they would still need to repay the loan to the banks, which they couldn't do without selling the team.

[PromoTheRobot]

NFL has specific rules on how much money can be borrowed against the value of a franchise. I believe the number is $150 million. Maybe Ralph was grand-fathered out of this rule, but I highly doubt it.

 

And Ralph wasn't supposed to lend Al Davis money to prop up the Raiders either. Rules, schmules.

 

Theory doesn't hold water - a) NFL greatly limits debts against the team's value. The only exceptions are for stadium construction, and even in that, the NFL is greatly involved; b) Who are the lenders that have lent Ralph couple of hundred million? What happens to the loan once he passes? c) This scheme does not avoid the payout that Wilson's heirs would have to pay. If they borrowed up the team to the hilt to avoid estate taxes, they would still need to repay the loan to the banks, which they couldn't do without selling the team.

 

a) Well what's to stop Ralph from NOT telling the league? See: Al Davis, Raiders.

b) Ralph has a lot of rich friends.

c) Not necessarily. If the borrowed money just vanishes into varies accounts on and offshore, and to his family. And who said the paper would be held by banks? That's my friend's point. He predicts that Ralph's estate will be such a rats nest that it will take years to sort it out and liquidate the team. ("50% of the Bills to you, and 50% to you, and 50% to you, etc.) Meanwhile the Bills franchise will have no taxable value.

 

Again, just a theory.

 

PTR

Edited February 5, 2014 by PromoTheRobot

[Kelly the Dog]

You say this with such confidence, but of course we're wondering if you just suspect this, or if you have some sort of insider information about it? No need to reveal sources, but a curious public wants to know.

It's a combination of some insider information, knowing a little, reading a lot, and common sense.

 

Even if I never heard anything about it, which I have, I would know for sure that it is not automatically going to the highest bidder.

 

That doesn't mean it's not going to eventually go to that highest bidder, of course that is possible. But it's not going to just be auctioned. Buffalo and its groups are going to have every chance to buy the team.

 

Personally, I have very little worry that the team is going to be moved. I don't believe that it is blind optimism on my part. It's certainly possible, IMO, but highly unlikely. The NFL wants the team to stay.

 

The only thing that makes absolutely zero sense, to me, is Ralph just letting it go.

[GG]

 

 

And Ralph wasn't supposed to lend Al Davis money to prop up the Raiders either. Rules, schmules.

 

 

 

a) Well what's to stop Ralph from NOT telling the league? See: Al Davis, Raiders.

b) Ralph has a lot of rich friends.

c) Not necessarily. If the borrowed money just vanishes into varies accounts on and offshore, and to his family. And who said the paper would be held by banks? That's my friend's point. He predicts that Ralph's estate will be such a rats nest that it will take years to sort it out and liquidate the team. ("50% of the Bills to you, and 50% to you, and 50% to you, etc.) Meanwhile the Bills franchise will have no taxable value.

 

Again, just a theory.

 

PTR

 

And as Davis found out, it's not a good thing to screw with the league. If Wilson levered the team without league knowledge, that's a clear violation of by laws. Day good bye to the franchise, then.

 

Please tell me of these magnanimous lenders who lend hundreds of millions and don't care if you don't pay it back?

[PromoTheRobot]

And as Davis found out, it's not a good thing to screw with the league. If Wilson levered the team without league knowledge, that's a clear violation of by laws. Day good bye to the franchise, then.

 

Please tell me of these magnanimous lenders who lend hundreds of millions and don't care if you don't pay it back?

 

You're going to have to show me where I say they don't care if they aren't paid back? What I did say was they are getting interest payments. In fact that's another piece of my friend's conspiracy puzzle. That Ralph has millions in interest payment to make to his lenders and that's where some of unspent that cap money goes.

 

PTR

Edited February 5, 2014 by PromoTheRobot