Discussion of The Bills Fan Alliance concept

[Coach Tuesday]

The NFL (the other owners) aren't going to allow the sale of the team to an owner (or group) that can't afford the market price of the team. They are going to green light an owner with the finacial means to buy the team outright.

 

This, I fear and am confident, is the right answer. It seems to me a lot of complexities are being overlooked in this discussion, and this entire concept ignores the realities of how ownership changes and aquisitions get approved by the NFL. Simply put, any owner who would need this kind of cash infusion to purchase the team won't be approved by the NFL, I don't think (although I need to understand a bit more about what happened in Green Bay I suppose).

 

It's not just about purchase price - sure, there could be an owner who says he'll keep the team in Buffalo but can only bid about $150M less than a guy who wants to buy the team and move it. But the discussion doesn't end there. The NFL looks closely at long-term viability. Will the new owner be able to fund capital investments over time? Does he have enough free capital and cash flow to fund ongoing operations, including personnel costs which are expected to keep going up? If an owner needs $150M just to buy the team, how is he going to put $150M or more per year into player salaries etc.? More annual gifts from the fanbase? I don't think so.

 

And then there is the political issue. And by this I mean, wouldn't this energy be better spent on encouraging the State and County to make it very attractive for a new owner to remain in Buffalo? It won't be as hard as it sounds - I have reason to believe that enticements were offered in connection with the lease renegotiation, and there was more out there for the taking. My suggestion is that instead of pissing your $$ away into a gift fund for a billionaire, you should pressure your politicians to give the prospective new owner an offer he or she can't refuse. Perhaps $250 million in stadium enhancements and regional development initiatives (tied to a promise to remain in the area) would be even more useful than $150M in virtually unrestricted cash.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Coach Tuesday

[May Day 10]

I think you guys are overlooking the potential power of the symbolism of this. For both the NFL and the politicians. A grassroots effort by fans/constituents raises even close to $170 Million and the NFL is going to look very bad allowing a move, as will any politician who uses anything at their disposal to prevent a relocation.

[plenzmd1]

I think you guys are overlooking the potential power of the symbolism of this. For both the NFL and the politicians. A grassroots effort by fans/constituents raises even close to $170 Million and the NFL is going to look very bad allowing a move, as will any politician who uses anything at their disposal to prevent a relocation.

 

just to play devils advocate...what happens if this moves forward and they can only raise $50M...does that give them more fuel to move the team ?

[May Day 10]

I think that is still a boatload of money and a positive story

[DC Bills Backer]

This is ridiculous. Now the Bills are a charity? Let's see, give $200 for the homeless, or $200 to the Bills. Tough decision........

 

 

 

Now THAT is a reality check. Agree!

 

 

 

Yeah make sure you post up a copy of that cashed check to the Bills

 

No one is going to force you to contribute that is part of the point, its not tax payer money its people if they choose to donate and be a part of it. Clearly you have no interest and that is fine, no real need to bash others who wan to contribute though.

 

Oy, never mind.

 

As mentioned feel free not to contribute but if others care about the team and choose this way to try and do something proactive why keep trying to shoot that down. Because you choose not to that is fine but let others do as they please. And as far as charitable giving you are incorrect as there is more incentive to donate if its tax deductible. I being someone who donates both to my church and host of other charities is a ways above standard deduction amount and itemize so if this fund becomes a 501c3 then there is even more incentive for me to put something towards it.

[SRQ_BillsFan]

 

 

This, I fear and am confident, is the right answer. It seems to me a lot of complexities are being overlooked in this discussion, and this entire concept ignores the realities of how ownership changes and aquisitions get approved by the NFL. Simply put, any owner who would need this kind of cash infusion to purchase the team won't be approved by the NFL, I don't think (although I need to understand a bit more about what happened in Green Bay I suppose).

 

It's not just about purchase price - sure, there could be an owner who says he'll keep the team in Buffalo but can only bid about $150M less than a guy who wants to buy the team and move it. But the discussion doesn't end there. The NFL looks closely at long-term viability. Will the new owner be able to fund capital investments over time? Does he have enough free capital and cash flow to fund ongoing operations, including personnel costs which are expected to keep going up? If an owner needs $150M just to buy the team, how is he going to put $150M or more per year into player salaries etc.? More annual gifts from the fanbase? I don't think so.

 

And then there is the political issue. And by this I mean, wouldn't this energy be better spent on encouraging the State and County to make it very attractive for a new owner to remain in Buffalo? It won't be as hard as it sounds - I have reason to believe that enticements were offered in connection with the lease renegotiation, and there was more out there for the taking. My suggestion is that instead of pissing your $$ away into a gift fund for a billionaire, you should pressure your politicians to give the prospective new owner an offer he or she can't refuse. Perhaps $250 million in stadium enhancements and regional development initiatives (tied to a promise to remain in the area) would be even more useful than $150M in virtually unrestricted cash.

 

My view is that this would be in addition to the state/county elected "contributions". Otherwise we are simply replacing one pile of money with another.

 

 

[Coach Tuesday]

My view is that this would be in addition to the state/county elected "contributions". Otherwise we are simply replacing one pile of money with another.

 

They shouldn't both be needed. If they are both necessary, the NFL would wisely conclude that a franchise in Buffalo is not viable long-term.

[SRQ_BillsFan]

 

 

They shouldn't both be needed. If they are both necessary, the NFL would wisely conclude that a franchise in Buffalo is not viable long-term.

 

 

The state money would be needed for a new stadium.

[Coach Tuesday]

The state money would be needed for a new stadium.

 

I understand that. In your scenario, the NFL is going to approve a new owner who needs $150M from the fanbase to buy the team, and then another couple hundred million (at least) from the state to build a new stadium? That's never going to happen.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Coach Tuesday

[Mr. WEO]

This, I fear and am confident, is the right answer. It seems to me a lot of complexities are being overlooked in this discussion, and this entire concept ignores the realities of how ownership changes and aquisitions get approved by the NFL. Simply put, any owner who would need this kind of cash infusion to purchase the team won't be approved by the NFL, I don't think (although I need to understand a bit more about what happened in Green Bay I suppose).

 

It's not just about purchase price - sure, there could be an owner who says he'll keep the team in Buffalo but can only bid about $150M less than a guy who wants to buy the team and move it. But the discussion doesn't end there. The NFL looks closely at long-term viability. Will the new owner be able to fund capital investments over time? Does he have enough free capital and cash flow to fund ongoing operations, including personnel costs which are expected to keep going up? If an owner needs $150M just to buy the team, how is he going to put $150M or more per year into player salaries etc.? More annual gifts from the fanbase? I don't think so.

 

And then there is the political issue. And by this I mean, wouldn't this energy be better spent on encouraging the State and County to make it very attractive for a new owner to remain in Buffalo? It won't be as hard as it sounds - I have reason to believe that enticements were offered in connection with the lease renegotiation, and there was more out there for the taking. My suggestion is that instead of pissing your $$ away into a gift fund for a billionaire, you should pressure your politicians to give the prospective new owner an offer he or she can't refuse. Perhaps $250 million in stadium enhancements and regional development initiatives (tied to a promise to remain in the area) would be even more useful than $150M in virtually unrestricted cash.

 

These guys have a nice idea, but I think it's a bit naive, your points are well taken.

 

Buying a team will be somewaht akin to buying a co-op in Manhattan. Lots of finacial data will need to be scrutinized by the co-op board (NFL owners) to see if the buyer is financially viable. I would guess that, if under "Assets" they see "fan donation", they will kindly decline the owner's bid.

 

No one is going to force you to contribute that is part of the point, its not tax payer money its people if they choose to donate and be a part of it. Clearly you have no interest and that is fine, no real need to bash others who wan to contribute though.

 

 

 

As mentioned feel free not to contribute but if others care about the team and choose this way to try and do something proactive why keep trying to shoot that down. Because you choose not to that is fine but let others do as they please. And as far as charitable giving you are incorrect as there is more incentive to donate if its tax deductible. I being someone who donates both to my church and host of other charities is a ways above standard deduction amount and itemize so if this fund becomes a 501c3 then there is even more incentive for me to put something towards it.

 

I'm not knocking the thought of fans wanting to give money to keep the team in Buffalo. I'm pointing out that some here are mischaracterizing the entire plan as a loan or investment by the public. It's misleading--in both of those scenarios, the fan forking over the money would expect monetary return. Why can't we call it what the guys who thought it call it--a gift?

 

The standard deduction for a couple filing jointly is $12,200. If you are donating more than this to your church and others, I commend you. But you can see why a fan donating a few hundred dollars will not reap a tax benefit unless that donation to the Bills puts his total itemized donations above the standard deduction. Also, it is a deduction off of your taxable income, not your tax owed.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Mr. WEO

[BillnutinHouston]

What I'm not sure any of us know is the degree to which the incumbent owner's wishes count in selecting from prospective ownership groups. After all, the team is technically the property of one man, not a Committee of NFL owners.

 

For all we know, Mr. Wilson, who knows the process and personalities better than anyone, may place stipluations on the sale to favor an ownership group that is committed to keeping the team in Buffalo. Hypothetically, this stipulation could be made with a requirement that the winning bid (for an owner committed to Buffalo) be no less than X% lower than the team's full open market valuation, or X% lower than the highest valid bid.

 

If such a stipulation from Mr. Wilson carries any weight with the other owners (and I suspect it would if he took the trouble of crafting it, given his Hall of Fame credentials), this Fund could be relevant.

Edited February 4, 2014 by BillnutinHouston

[DC Bills Backer]

These guys have a nice idea, but I think it's a bit naive, your points are well taken.

 

Buying a team will be somewaht akin to buying a co-op in Manhattan. Lots of finacial data will need to be scrutinized by the co-op board (NFL owners) to see if the buyer is financially viable. I would guess that, if under "Assets" they see "fan donation", they will kindly decline the owner's bid.

 

 

 

I'm not knocking the thought of fans wanting to give money to keep the team in Buffalo. I'm pointing out that some here are mischaracterizing the entire plan as a loan or investment by the public. It's misleading--in both of those scenarios, the fan forking over the money would expect monetary return. Why can't we call it what the guys who thought it call it--a gift?

 

The standard deduction for a couple filing jointly is $12,200. If you are donating more than this to your church and others, I commend you. But you can see why a fan donating a few hundred dollars will not reap a tax benefit unless that donation to the Bills puts his total itemized donations above the standard deduction. Also, it is a deduction off of your taxable income, not your tax owed.

 

Yeah I could care less what its called a gift, an investment where you get nothing in return or just call it someone being a huge Bills fan. As far as tax goes I'd say whether or not it would put someone over the standard deduction it seems from the outside to have more of an incentive if its tax deductible even if that means no change to the amount due to IRS or the amount you get as a refund. People seem to love giving to places where they can claim it though is all I'm saying. Especially if you do get some people who are real gung ho and want to donate a few thousand then it would certainly bring down there taxable income and possibly increase their refund coming back.

 

Obviously this is just the start of their idea, I do commend people for trying to do something which may or may not help keep the Bills in Buffalo but hey at least its something right?

[SRQ_BillsFan]

 

 

I understand that. In your scenario, the NFL is going to approve a new owner who needs $150M from the fanbase to buy the team, and then another couple hundred million (at least) from the state to build a new stadium? That's never going to happen.

 

Not sure it needs to be looked at as a gift. From the Bills standpoint, it's a tax free loan. It's quite likely anyone buying this team or any other would borrow some of these costs. What does it matter if the money is borrowed from the Fan Alliance or from HSBC. It's technically still a loan either way, just with better terms. It doesn't mean the owner(s) couldn't afford to get a loan elsewhere simply that they wanted to take advantage of favorable interest terms.

 

I also like the idea of it being a loan that the team has to pay back, this way it could be used again. Even if the team had only paid back $50-60 million of $100 million or more, that $50 million could be used again in another loan to the team that would be interest free. So several years latter it could be used to help fund a stadium.

 

 

Any money the team would want now or in the future from the State/County to build a new stadium should have no bearing on the approval from the sale of the team. While they may want a new stadium it isn't part of the sale. They could ask for a new stadium 2 years after the sale is complete. In any case it is unlikely with or without this fund being involved in the sale of the team that a new stadium gets built in the area without taxpayer money.

 

Unless there is a Santa Claus and an owner materializes with deep enough pockets to keep the team in Buffalo and build a privately funded stadium. Not sure I see both or either happening. May as well hope they never raise ticket prices too.

 

Having said all of that I can't wait for Christmas and hope that does happen. Maybe Ralph is Santa and he just gives the team to the city of Buffalo as a gift? Wonder what the NFL would do then? Ralph would be dead and the city would own the team. Then they would probably be legally bound to sell it to the highest bidder - Just our luck.

Edited February 4, 2014 by SRQ_BillsFan

[simpleman]

Go ahead and contribute to the pockets of rich billionaires. As the saying goes, "There's a sucker born every minute". Sounds like a lot of them are from Buffalo.

[uncle flap]

Simply put, whether or not this plan comes to fruition- and by that I mean the amount raised and subsequently lent to a future owner (or ownership group) is used to keep the Bills in Buffalo - it doesn't hurt to try.

 

There's no risk to anyone contributing, and as mentioned upthread, at the very least, there is a tangible financial demonstration of how important the Bills are to this community.

 

It's hard to be completely objective, but I want to think if I were a prospective owner, I'd want to operate in an established market (albeit small) rather than risk building a brand in another area with far more competition for prospective fans' dollars, such as LA or Toronto.

 

I'm not against constructive criticism, but it seems more than a few of you are downright cynical about this plan. It's one thing to look at the plan objectively and conclude "it'll never work," but I remain unconvinced by the doubters. Like I said, maybe it won't work, but it doesn't hurt to try.

 

I guess I don't see why someone who can afford to wouldn't lend a couple hundred bucks to the Bills to keep them in Buffalo.

Edited February 5, 2014 by uncle flap

[Kelly the Dog]

The NFL (the other owners) aren't going to allow the sale of the team to an owner (or group) that can't afford the market price of the team. They are going to green light an owner with the finacial means to buy the team outright.

 

You're missing the point. When the Browns had an expansion team in 1998, and were up for sale, a couple offers came in at almost $200 million more than was predicted or expected. Al Lerner bid $530 million. The next highest was $500 million from Larry Dolan. Five years earlier the expansion price was like $140 million. Each team in the league overnight was worth way, way more because of the outrageous bids. But they still voted on who they would give it to and the vote was very, very close. It took four ballots before they decided to give it to Lerner.

 

If the Bills were up for sale and Jim Kelly's group or someone else's group's top bid was $900 million and some outsider could afford $1b, that $170 million would come in very handy, and I would bet anything that the league would vote to take the local offer if it matched the outsiders.

[Mr. WEO]

You're missing the point. When the Browns had an expansion team in 1998, and were up for sale, a couple offers came in at almost $200 million more than was predicted or expected. Al Lerner bid $530 million. The next highest was $500 million from Larry Dolan. Five years earlier the expansion price was like $140 million. Each team in the league overnight was worth way, way more because of the outrageous bids. But they still voted on who they would give it to and the vote was very, very close. It took four ballots before they decided to give it to Lerner.

 

If the Bills were up for sale and Jim Kelly's group or someone else's group's top bid was $900 million and some outsider could afford $1b, that $170 million would come in very handy, and I would bet anything that the league would vote to take the local offer if it matched the outsiders.

 

Four votes were likely for political reasons between the 3 surviving bidders--all of whom were offering astronomically high bids. In the end, they went with the highest bid.

 

But the Bills are not an expansion team, so the WIlson family will be selecting the buyer. It is likely they will pick the highest bidder. This will please the owners, who I am not convinced would favor a low bid aided by fan contributions.

 

But this is just a thought exercise anyway. Although it is a testament to the loyalty of the Bills fans that such an idea would be proposed, the likelyhood they could raise anything near even tens of millions is very low.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Mr. WEO

[Coach Tuesday]

 

You're missing the point. When the Browns had an expansion team in 1998, and were up for sale, a couple offers came in at almost $200 million more than was predicted or expected. Al Lerner bid $530 million. The next highest was $500 million from Larry Dolan. Five years earlier the expansion price was like $140 million. Each team in the league overnight was worth way, way more because of the outrageous bids. But they still voted on who they would give it to and the vote was very, very close. It took four ballots before they decided to give it to Lerner.

 

If the Bills were up for sale and Jim Kelly's group or someone else's group's top bid was $900 million and some outsider could afford $1b, that $170 million would come in very handy, and I would bet anything that the league would vote to take the local offer if it matched the outsiders.

 

Kelly, how is a prospective local owner who underbids by $150M going to demonstrate that he'll magically have $200M in operating cash every year?

[Kelly the Dog]

Kelly, how is a prospective local owner who underbids by $150M going to demonstrate that he'll magically have $200M in operating cash every year?

a] because no group is going to be putting every dollar they have up. The local group is going to have Golisano or Pegula or Rich Jr or Millstein or someone with billions. and b] the new TV deal is so much that the teams start out virtually making money. I'd have to look up the numbers but it's likely 150 m per team by now, or will be more than that soon.

 

To WEO, I will bet you $1000 right now that the Wilson family is not just going to automatically go with the highest bidder and there is definitely a plan in place to keep the team in Buffalo. Regardless of quotes in the paper. To me, the only way it's not going to be someone with local ties is if someone swoops in and bids $150 million more than that going rate, and then, PERHAPS, this extra $150 mil is there. That rarely happens.

[PromoTheRobot]

I don't think the Bills have a million fans, much less a million fans willing to put up money like this.

 

That said my friend thinks Ralph has a plan to keep the Bills in Buffalo for years after his passing...it's called untanging his estate.

 

He thinks Ralph already borrowed all the value out if the franchise so when the time comes the Bills will not be worth a dime. It will be all debt with lenders fighting over it. It's a brilliant move.

 

PTR

Edited February 5, 2014 by PromoTheRobot