EJ knee surgery, Tim Graham questions, draft QB?

[Doc]

No. Not really. Very, very few QBs become star, franchise QBs that you really want on your team. How many are there in the league at any one time? 10-12 or so? Also, most teams need a very good back-up. There is at least a reasonable faction of people who think you should draft a QB in the first two rounds every year until you get a surefire star, because it's the only way to win. EJ surely needs another year or two to know if he is going to be a star QB, which is more important than a franchise QB. There are reasons to believe that he won't be. But that doesn't mean you already, absolutely, say he is a bust or think he is going to be a bust.

People say all sorts of stuff about what you should do. But I can't think of a single team in the past 30 years who spent a 1st rounder on a QB and then another first rounder or even 2nd rounder on a QB the following year. Even teams who had QB's who played infinitely worse than EJ did. So Timmy saying the Bills should take a QB in the first round is saying that EJ is an unprecedented bust.

[BADOLBILZ]

Paraphrased, Graham's original question was "How will you react if the Bills use the first pick in this year's draft to pick either your replacement or someone who will compete with you?".

 

Subtract EJ from the equation, and substitute any NFL starter in his spot and let me know a "good" answer to that question. There isn't one and that isn't a defense of EJ. EJ had a bad response from a spectrum of possible bad responses. Graham put him on the spot and in am impossible situation because:

 

A: He is poor at his job, did no preparation, and shot from the hip.

B: Decided to give a loaded question because he is a douche or has a problem with EJ or

C: Decided to ask a loaded question to get Skip Bayless type attention on himself.

 

None of those choices paint him in a real good light and his past history does nothing to indicate he has matured enough as a professional to somehow have the question crafted as a precursor to a better follow up. Occum's Shaver tells me the correct answer is one of the three choices I listed above.

 

The Bills may be a badly run organization and EJ may be the worst combination of horrible player and massive jerk on Earth; it's still a bad question from an unimaginative twit.

 

 

 

That isn't right. He has been around a long time and knows a lot.

 

 

 

But by drafting a QB at #1 you, in part, arrest EJ's potential development by denying him a needed piece of the puzzle whether it be a game changing TE, an OT, or even a finishing piece to the defense like a LB who can help stop the run which ultimately takes pressure off the offense.

 

You also automatically, rightly or wrongly, put doubt into his mind. This could be a positive, but the odds are it will be a negative.

 

And none of this matters that much because EJ has no say in the matter and Graham asking him about the Bills drafting a QB is silly at best. It would have been an appropriate question for Whaley or even Greggo Marrone.

 

 

Graham asked a question that Bills fans have about EJ. I've pointed this out before, I tailgate with dozens of people every home game who have had season tickets in their familes going as far back as the 1960's. They are passionate Bills fans. They sit close enough to often hear the conversations on the sidelines. They know many of the players families. Their ages range from teenagers to mid-50's and none of them waste any of their time on TSW. They don't feel the need to. They fly the Bills colors, but they know the organization doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt any longer. They live Bills football and they read articles in the Buffalo News. They want to know how EJ will react to adversity. That was essentially Graham's question. So while you are perturbed to hear Graham ask a question that gets asked here on TSW every week, that by no means makes it a bad or redundant question because Graham isn't asking it for you. He is doing his job. Deal with it.

 

As for arresting EJ's development by drafting competition........that's your take. I don't believe your opinion is backed up by facts. Did removing Doug Flutie from the equation help Rob Johnson? Were Todd Collins, Billy Joe Hobert, JP Losman and Trent Edwards destroyed by poor handling? I think the vast majority of QB's who fail do so because they simply weren't good enough. Not because their team drafted another QB high and hurt their feelings or caused them to have to work harder and be smarter about their job. If EJ doesn't improve by leaps and bounds he will lose his job to the next man up. It's better if the next man up has franchise potential, otherwise you are just costing yourself more valuable time.

 

And with regard to missing out on talent by using a first round pick on another QB......that's just short term thinking. The first round isn't the only place to add peripheral talent and also don't pretend that you know that the Bills will make the most of that pick. I've pointed this out many times.......all the Bills really have to show for the past 14 years of poor records and subsequently high first round picks are Leodis, Spiller, Dareus, Gilmore and EJ. That's it. And not all of those picks have been busts. Only a few positions really make a big difference for an organization and QB is by far the most important and it should always warrant consideration with that first pick.

[3rdand12]

People say all sorts of stuff about what you should do. But I can't think of a single team in the past 30 years who spent a 1st rounder on a QB and then another first rounder or even 2nd rounder on a QB the following year. Even teams who had QB's who played infinitely worse than EJ did. So Timmy saying the Bills should take a QB in the first round is saying that EJ is an unprecedented bust.

We have had this discussion before in general. How many QBs can one keep while allowing proper development ?

We draft another one gets pushed aside . okay so Tuel is gone.

Then we still have very little NFL exp at the position.

Bills have smartened up after we all bitched about QB coach last season, who as probably Kolb. Who was probably the starter. But lets not go down that path again here please. Bills are giving experienced resourced to EJ to develop him as the franchise QB . for better or worse.

I dont think this coming season is the time to hedge bets or change direction.

Unless Bills staff sees a major flaw that they did not before, why undermine EJ and the Bills trajectory ?

and by undermine i mean pick in the first round for another risk . No one in there proper mind would try to juggle that.

We're the F'n Bills . there is Always next year. enjoy the improvements being made and the positive proactive steps to move the team towards being a winning organization.

 

edit. I dont think its out of line to pick up another QB who has clearly more potential than Tuel or Lewis BOB .

But QB is not the only serious issue to solve and i prefer a couple of slam dunks in the early rounds. I know i know. : )

Edited February 2, 2014 by 3rdand12

[BADOLBILZ]

I won't disagree with your basic premise, that the QB is the most important position on the field, but I will disagree that it can't be done without a HOF type QB.

 

For one, Joe Flacco. That guy won't sniff the HOF and when it's all said and done will be considered that same type of journeyman QB. In fact, despite Rypian's reputation as a journeyman that guy (and the skins offence) had a few incredible seasons. He was one of the best QBs in the league for those years. He just couldn't sustain it.

 

Exhibit 2, Eli Manning. He'll join Plunket as the only two time SB winners to not be in the Hall. He better turn things around quickly if he wants to change that.

 

Those are two recent QBs who aren't all time greats. Sure, they both played very well in spurts, when their teams needed them to, which helped them win, but they aren't Peyton, Brady or Rodgers.

 

If Seattle wins today that will be another QB who wasn't the focal point of their offence to win the big game. Sure Wilson may go on to do great things (and don't me me wrong, he's good) but he'd be in the same boat as Flacco in terms of his contributions this year...he rode a dominant D to the title.

 

When it is all said and done, Flacco will have taken his team to the playoffs a dozen times and Eli will rebound and play for another 8+ years. And all that being said.......they already have the crowning achievements. If you think a down year or two precludes a QB from becoming a HOF'er then I don't know what to tell you. Check out Kurt Warner's trajectory. Winning gets QB's into the HOF whether you think they deserve it or not. Roethlisberger is going in to. As for Russell Wilson.........he is damn good. If he wins a SB in just his second year I like his chances of becoming a HOF'er in time as well. Are these guys on par with Montana, Manning, Favre etc..? Absolutely not. But neither is Jim Kelly. Bottom line is that a HOF'er is a HOF'er. Winning SB's is huge for a QB and doing it in a passing dominated league earns far greater accolades than in the days of Jim Plunkett.

[MDH]

 

When it is all said and done, Flacco will have taken his team to the playoffs a dozen times and Eli will rebound and play for another 8+ years. And all that being said.......they already have the crowning achievements. If you think a down year or two precludes a QB from becoming a HOF'er then I don't know what to tell you. Check out Kurt Warner's trajectory. Winning gets QB's into the HOF whether you think they deserve it or not. Roethlisberger is going in to. As for Russell Wilson.........he is damn good. If he wins a SB in just his second year I like his chances of becoming a HOF'er in time as well. Are these guys on par with Montana, Manning, Favre etc..? Absolutely not. But neither is Jim Kelly. Bottom line is that a HOF'er is a HOF'er. Winning SB's is huge for a QB and doing it in a passing dominated league earns far greater accolades than in the days of Jim Plunkett.

 

So in one post you say that today you need a HOF type QB to win a Super Bowl and then turn around and say all Super Bowl winning QBs make the HOF by today's standards.

 

That's some pretty circular logic.

[BADOLBILZ]

People say all sorts of stuff about what you should do. But I can't think of a single team in the past 30 years who spent a 1st rounder on a QB and then another first rounder or even 2nd rounder on a QB the following year. Even teams who had QB's who played infinitely worse than EJ did. So Timmy saying the Bills should take a QB in the first round is saying that EJ is an unprecedented bust.

 

As pointed out earlier, the Cowboys dynasty began with using two first round picks in the same calendar year on Troy Aikman and Steve Walsh.

 

I'd like to see all the examples of QB's whose careers were crushed by having to compete for their jobs.

[3rdand12]

Eli Manning sucks .

Peyton although is one hell of player to go down in NFL history !

 

As pointed out earlier, the Cowboys dynasty began with using two first round picks in the same calendar year on Troy Aikman and Steve Walsh.

 

I'd like to see all the examples of QB's whose careers were crushed by having to compete for their jobs.

I did not know that. What did they get for Walsh in trade ?

 

And also what was the Cowboys record going into that draft ? and who was the starter Aikman replaced ? Not a Cowboys fan but they did have some runs didn't they .

This IS interesting !

[BADOLBILZ]

So in one post you say that today you need a HOF type QB to win a Super Bowl and then turn around and say all Super Bowl winning QBs make the HOF by today's standards.

 

That's some pretty circular logic.

 

Winning a SB is huge. Winning it with incredible clutch plays is even better. That 4th and 10 completion to Boldin and the sideline bomb to Manningham. No football writer is forgetting those plays. But let's not pretend these are the only things they have accomplished. Eli has numbers. He will push the 400 TD mark. Flacco had maybe the greatest postseason a QB has ever had and his best individual numbers are probably ahead of him and he plays for a great organization. He is the least likely of all of the QB's that have won SB's in the last decade to become a HOF'er but it's hard to not like his chances.

 

Eli Manning sucks .

Peyton although is one hell of player to go down in NFL history !

 

I did not know that. What did they get for Walsh in trade ?

 

And also what was the Cowboys record going into that draft ? and who was the starter Aikman replaced ? Not a Cowboys fan but they did have some runs didn't they .

This IS interesting !

 

Traded to Saints for a #1, #2 and #3.

 

FWIW, the Bills couldn't get a first round pick for Leodis, Spiller, Dareus or Gilmore. All pretty good players by league standards.

 

Drafting LB's with top ten picks is the equivalent of buying a new car and having it depreciate $10K as you are driving it off the lot.

 

You obviously can't base your drafting on trade value, but it is important to note that the QB position has legit trade value that you don't see very often with any other position so you aren't necessarily "wasting" a first round pick in drafting additional QB prospects in round 1.

[thebandit27]

 

 

Winning a SB is huge. Winning it with incredible clutch plays is even better. That 4th and 10 completion to Boldin and the sideline bomb to Manningham. No football writer is forgetting those plays. But let's not pretend these are the only things they have accomplished. Eli has numbers. He will push the 400 TD mark. Flacco had maybe the greatest postseason a QB has ever had and his best individual numbers are probably ahead of him and he plays for a great organization. He is the least likely of all of the QB's that have won SB's in the last decade to become a HOF'er but it's hard to not like his chances.

 

 

 

Traded to Saints for a #1, #2 and #3.

 

FWIW, the Bills couldn't get a first round pick for Leodis, Spiller, Dareus or Gilmore. All pretty good players by league standards.

 

Drafting LB's with top ten picks is the equivalent of buying a new car and having it depreciate $10K as you are driving it off the lot.

 

You obviously can't base your drafting on trade value, but it is important to note that the QB position has legit trade value that you don't see very often with any other position so you aren't necessarily "wasting" a first round pick in drafting additional QB prospects in round 1.

 

I don't understand how you can so flippantly say things like "Eli Manning will play for another 8+ years" and "the Bills couldn't get a first round pick for Dareus".

 

No offense intended here--you (and I) have no clue whatsoever if either of those things are true.

 

QBs get hurt, retire, break down, etc all the time...we have no way to tell if Eli has 1 or 10 good seasons left in him.

 

Percy Harvin netted a 1,3,&7 in a trade...no reason to think Spiller or Dareus couldn't fetch a 1.

[billsfan1959]

As pointed out earlier, the Cowboys dynasty began with using two first round picks in the same calendar year on Troy Aikman and Steve Walsh.

 

I'd like to see all the examples of QB's whose careers were crushed by having to compete for their jobs.

 

IMO, I believe it is, to put it mildly, a stretch to say the Cowboy dynasty began by selecting Aikman and Walsh. If your argument is that the competition between the two made Aikman better and started the dynasty - it is not really supported. There wasn't much of a competition and most people believed that Jones selected Walsh in the supplemental draft for simply for trade purposes (in spite of his public pronouncements) - which happened the very next year. My guess is that the success Aikman, who was a number one overall pick, enjoyed had more to do with his ability and the team around him during their superbowl years that the drafting of Walsh in the same calander year

 

ADD: BTW, Aikman finished 1-15 with, statistically, a worse year than Manuel had. Yet, the next year, the Cowboys didn't feel the need to keep Walsh - nor the need to draft another quarterback in the first round

Edited February 2, 2014 by billsfan1959

[3rdand12]

Winning a SB is huge. Winning it with incredible clutch plays is even better. That 4th and 10 completion to Boldin and the sideline bomb to Manningham. No football writer is forgetting those plays. But let's not pretend these are the only things they have accomplished. Eli has numbers. He will push the 400 TD mark. Flacco had maybe the greatest postseason a QB has ever had and his best individual numbers are probably ahead of him and he plays for a great organization. He is the least likely of all of the QB's that have won SB's in the last decade to become a HOF'er but it's hard to not like his chances.

 

 

 

Traded to Saints for a #1, #2 and #3.

 

FWIW, the Bills couldn't get a first round pick for Leodis, Spiller, Dareus or Gilmore. All pretty good players by league standards.

 

Drafting LB's with top ten picks is the equivalent of buying a new car and having it depreciate $10K as you are driving it off the lot.

 

You obviously can't base your drafting on trade value, but it is important to note that the QB position has legit trade value that you don't see very often with any other position so you aren't necessarily "wasting" a first round pick in drafting additional QB prospects in round 1.

you covered my question before i asked it !

That is just amazing that a team would be so sold on Walsh to risk the farm. NO that is

You know what i am going after of course. I dont mind drafting two the same season as i might one first after another back to back drafts.

Just bad form all around .

 

Suggests failure on all fronts .

Edited February 2, 2014 by 3rdand12

[BackInDaDay]

i can understand why some fans who post here aren't comfortable with the level of commitment the Bills are making in developing Manuel into a successful NFL QB. but the fact is, such a commitment renders speculation of using early draft picks on young men to compete for EJ's position, moot.

 

no offense meant to those of you who haven't yet accepted this, but a purported 'beat' reporter should have a clearer understanding of what's trying to be accomplished - and not come off like 'Tommy from Tonawanda'.

[BADOLBILZ]

I don't understand how you can so flippantly say things like "Eli Manning will play for another 8+ years" and "the Bills couldn't get a first round pick for Dareus".

 

No offense intended here--you (and I) have no clue whatsoever if either of those things are true.

 

QBs get hurt, retire, break down, etc all the time...we have no way to tell if Eli has 1 or 10 good seasons left in him.

 

Percy Harvin netted a 1,3,&7 in a trade...no reason to think Spiller or Dareus couldn't fetch a 1.

 

Spiller worth a #1? You are really going to leave that in print?

 

Dareus might be worth a first rounder on talent but his contract is nearing it's end and he isn't playing on a dirt cheap rookie deal......so there is no way in hell anyone trades a first round pick for him, let alone anything that approaches where he was picked.

 

I can flippantly say that Eli Manning will play until he is 40 because that is the way it's going to be. QB's are going to play much longer. It's already happening. The beatings that QB's used to take that caused them to break down in their mid-30's just aren't permitted any longer. With rare exception, the QB's that used to play late into their 30's were beasts. Elway, Kelly, even Marino......these guys were big tough guys who could take a beating. Guys like Peyton and Brady don't fit that mold at all, but they are at the age when the class of 83' was limping out of the league and yet they rarely get touched on gameday and nobody is talking retirement for either of them.

[RuntheDamnBall]

As pointed out earlier, the Cowboys dynasty began with using two first round picks in the same calendar year on Troy Aikman and Steve Walsh.

 

I'd like to see all the examples of QB's whose careers were crushed by having to compete for their jobs.

I don't know that that is the case, Badol, that guys are crushed by having to compete for their jobs. I do, sincerely, believe that guys don't always get the best opportunities to reach their potential. That very well could have happened for Aaron Rodgers as he sat on the bench and waited for his time in GB. Had he not gotten really intense instruction from Mike McCarthy, he may not have made the adjustments that made him great. There is only so much time to absorb from the coaching staff, and sometimes one great teacher makes all the difference in a guy's career.

 

No one reasonable thinks that drafting a 1st round QB will crush EJ's spirit and hence his will to succeed in the NFL. It would undoubtedly curb the number of opportunities he would have to do so, though, and that's why many of us think the team should be cautious about adding another heir apparent into the mix. If he's the most talented guy out there -- sure, draft a QB. If he's another project, why have two of them on the roster with the expectation of giving them equal time? There is zero harm in finding out what they've got in Manuel this year. If he isn't better than the other QBs on our roster, his career will lead into career backup territory, you re-load or see if the other guys are better, and that's that. If he is, then the team has done its due diligence, and done what's best for a growing team -- not a young one as you've often noted, but a team that is growing an identity.

[YoloinOhio]

i can understand why some fans who post here aren't comfortable with the level of commitment the Bills are making in developing Manuel into a successful NFL QB. but the fact is, such a commitment renders speculation of using early draft picks on young men to compete for EJ's position, moot.

 

no offense meant to those of you who haven't yet accepted this, but a purported 'beat' reporter should have a clearer understanding of what's trying to be accomplished - and not come off like 'Tommy from Tonawanda'.

I agree that it is a waste of time to keep talking about them going QB in the first 2 rounds. It is not going to happen unless the Bills are conducting the biggest smokescreen of all time. It is indeed a moot point.

[QCity]

I can flippantly say that Eli Manning will play until he is 40 because that is the way it's going to be.

 

You need to learn the art of quitting while you're ahead. You make some very good, logical points and just when I'm nodding in agreement with you - I get sideswiped by a completely retarded statement like Eli Manning starting at QB in 2021 (he will be 41 in 8 years, not 40).

[thurst44]

As pointed out earlier, the Cowboys dynasty began with using two first round picks in the same calendar year on Troy Aikman and Steve Walsh.

 

I'd like to see all the examples of QB's whose careers were crushed by having to compete for their jobs.

It's not the matter of QBs being spared competition, but wasting a good pick on a stretch at a position where there has already been a run when you could get a better player at a position which will immediately move this team up a level. If 4-5 QBs are taken for the Bills, it would be insane to grab a QB just for the sake of getting one, when you could get Mack, Matthews, Robinson, Watkins, Ebron. That said, I like EJ, but would love them to look into someone like Boyd, Mettenberger, or a directional Illinois QB in the 3rd (and get a combo of TE, WR, OT, OG with 3 previous picks).

[BADOLBILZ]

you covered my question before i asked it !

That is just amazing that a team would be so sold on Walsh to risk the farm. NO that is

You know what i am going after of course. I dont mind drafting two the same season as i might one first after another back to back drafts.

Just bad form all around .

 

Suggests failure on all fronts .

 

In essence, they did use top picks in two consecutive seasons on a QB. The Cowboys forfeited their next #1 to select Walsh. That's the way the supplemental draft works.

 

The Cowboys were a very bad team and that pick they used on Walsh would have been the #1 overall.

 

By comparison, EJ Manuel was just a mid-first round pick.

[BADOLBILZ]

You need to learn the art of quitting while you're ahead. You make some very good, logical points and just when I'm nodding in agreement with you - I get sideswiped by a completely retarded statement like Eli Manning starting at QB in 2021 (he will be 41 in 8 years, not 40).

 

First......open up your hands and start counting from 33 on your fingers. Been thru this with my kids when they were learning to count.

 

Second....how many games has Eli Manning missed in his career? How long do you think his much less athletic 37 year old brother is going to play? How long did Favre play after taking far more punishment in his career?

 

It's going to happen. Get used to QB's playing to 40.

[BADOLBILZ]

It's not the matter of QBs being spared competition, but wasting a good pick on a stretch at a position where there has already been a run when you could get a better player at a position which will immediately move this team up a level. If 4-5 QBs are taken for the Bills, it would be insane to grab a QB just for the sake of getting one, when you could get Mack, Matthews, Robinson, Watkins, Ebron. That said, I like EJ, but would love them to look into someone like Boyd, Mettenberger, or a directional Illinois QB in the 3rd (and get a combo of TE, WR, OT, OG with 3 previous picks).

 

Mack, Matthews, Robinson etc..........these guys are the shiny pennies of the moment. But are they elite, franchise building blocks? History says that is unlikely. The Bills have spent most of the last 14 drafts on guys like that. Patching holes and replacing departing free agents in hopes of looking good on paper.