EJ knee surgery, Tim Graham questions, draft QB?

[GG]

So, what were your earlier accounts?

Take the Solomon Wilcots meme out of the user name, and you'll get Badol's history. Let's just say he's one of the board original members.

[uncle flap]

And then as I asked, if that rookie doesn't look any better than EJ did, do the Bills draft another QB in the 1st round in 2015?

 

I know you weren't asking me in particular but I answered this in another thread a little while back. Basically, it's not that you're only giving EJ or any other subsequent QB only one year to prove himself, it's that you aren't passing up on a backup plan in case the QB you have doesn't pan out.

 

There's a few scenarios that can unfold during the year wrt to EJ:

 

1. He plays well, and we are reasonably confident barring some regression that the Bills have found their QB of the future.

2. He has another up and down year, and we can't say one way or the other whether or not he's the QB of the future.

3. He gets injured again, and we can't say one way or the other whether or not he's the QB of the future.

4. He sucks, and we are reasonably confident he isn't going to become the QB of the future.

 

Of course things might not be so cut and dry, but I think we can agree we should be able to more or less categorize whatever happens as one of those scenarios.

 

So, imagine if they do draft a QB that they like in the first round this year.

 

If scenario #1 happens, well, they "wasted" a 1st round pick, but at least they have their franchise QB and some decent trade bait.

 

If #2 happens, they can either give EJ another year, or have an open competition at QB with a guy they like. At least they have a Plan B in the wings if EJ doesn't progress.

 

If #3 happens, they can start the other QB and see what he's got while EJ gets healthy. If the other QB looks better than EJ, he can keep the job.

 

If #4 happens, they can start the other QB from the jump. This other QB will have had a year in the system and the Bills won't be forced to pick a QB high next year that they might not like as much as the guy that people are asking them to pass on this year.

 

Again, I'm not saying that they need to draft a QB this year, but I think it's a good idea, if there is a guy they like, since the jury is out on EJ.

 

I think it's short sighted to say they'd be wasting the pick for the season. If EJ winds up sucking (and I'm not saying he will, I'm optimistic about his development), then what good is having another player at another position? QBs win championships and when a team doesn't have one they shouldn't be dismissing opportunities to find one.

 

I'm not advocating drafting a QB every year until one has a phenomenal rookie season. I'm advocating not passing up drafting a QB that they would otherwise like just because "we think EJ can develop."

 

[Sisyphean Bills]

I know you weren't asking me in particular but I answered this in another thread a little while back. Basically, it's not that you're only giving EJ or any other subsequent QB only one year to prove himself, it's that you aren't passing up on a backup plan in case the QB you have doesn't pan out.

 

Scenario #1 isn't necessarily a wasted pick. Green Bay, in particular, has been able to use their backup QB position as a position of strength to make deals to get more draft picks and so on. The second pick would have to have a career ending injury or look like cold garbage in pre-season. Of course, there is the question of whether Buffalo has the organizational support to develop backup QBs to the point that the work they show on tape in pre-season games is impressive enough other GMs will enter trade talks.

[Doc]

I know you weren't asking me in particular but I answered this in another thread a little while back. Basically, it's not that you're only giving EJ or any other subsequent QB only one year to prove himself, it's that you aren't passing up on a backup plan in case the QB you have doesn't pan out.

I agree and I said I'd take a QB in the later rounds on the off-chance he pans out or at least could be used as trade bait.

[boyst]

Some opinions make you an idiot, like "IMO the earth is flat"

 

while "IMO EJ is not good enough".. not really in that category

 

You state as fact that his rookie season wasn't rough. Actually that's an opinion. IMO it was rough, not necessarily stats-wise, but in watching how hard he makes his receivers work, for one thing

could have done that without the idiot remark, ya know?

[QCity]

why should EJ worry ?.....he's already been assured he's the starter.

 

Buffalo Bills coach Doug Marrone informed quarterback EJ Manuel that he will remain the starter next season despite lingering questions about the rookie's durability and uneven development.

 

Is Marrone 110% confident in EJ?

[BADOLBILZ]

TSW is a much better place than it was during the Losman/Edwards/Jauron days. It's become much more enjoyable and the conversations are much more intelligent IMO. I don't wring my hands over who leaves or stays.

 

As for Graham asking questions for the majority of Bills fans, I must be in the minority. I'm obviously living in denial giving my first round QB more than one season to prove himself.

 

Yeah, you are in the minority.

 

The truth is that very few Bills fans actually POST here........an absolute fraction of a fraction of a percent of Bills fans as a whole......... and a very high percentage of the regulars here have become zealots in defense of an undeniably poorly run organization.

 

Example: NOBODY said that the Bills shouldn't give EJ Manuel more than one season to prove himself.

 

NOBODY.

 

Yet that is your ridiculously exaggerated take.

 

And then there are the people who insist that Graham "essentially told EJ that he thinks EJ is a bust".

 

Didn't happen. Graham explained his position.

 

The board is most definitely not better off with people posting garbage like that.

 

And there are a WHOLE LOT of those idiotic takes in this thread.

Edited February 2, 2014 by BADOLBEELZ

[Doc]

Yeah, you are in the minority.

 

The truth is that very few Bills fans actually POST here........an absolute fraction of a fraction of a percent of Bills fans as a whole......... and a very high percentage of the regulars here have become zealots in defense of an undeniably poorly run organization.

 

Example: NOBODY said that the Bills shouldn't give EJ Manuel more than one season to prove himself.

 

NOBODY.

 

Yet that is your ridiculously exxagerated take.

 

And then there are the people who insist that Graham "essentially told EJ that he thinks EJ is a bust".

 

Didn't happen. Graham explained his position.

 

The board is most definitely not better off with people posting garbage like that.

 

And there are a WHOLE LOT of those idiotic takes in this thread.

Wait, saying a team should draft another QB in the 1st round isn't calling EJ a bust?

[l< j]

I'm of the (really really uninformed, and wishy-washy) opinion that the Bills should explore the possibility of spending another draft pick, possibly high, on QB this year. That said, I wish EJ had responded by asking how TG would feel if the BuffNews brought in some new people to upgrade its sports desk.

 

kj

[billsfan1959]

Yeah, you are in the minority.

 

The truth is that very few Bills fans actually POST here........an absolute fraction of a fraction of a percent of Bills fans as a whole......... and a very high percentage of the regulars here have become zealots in defense of an undeniably poorly run organization.

 

Example: NOBODY said that the Bills shouldn't give EJ Manuel more than one season to prove himself.

 

NOBODY.

 

Yet that is your ridiculously exxagerated take.

 

And then there are the people who insist that Graham "essentially told EJ that he thinks EJ is a bust".

 

Didn't happen. Graham explained his position.

 

The board is most definitely not better off with people posting garbage like that.

 

And there are a WHOLE LOT of those idiotic takes in this thread.

 

1. Actually, IMO there have been a number of posters who have said/insinuated just that: EJ is not the answer and the Bills need to look for another QB

2. In regard to Graham, read through my previous posts in this thread where I objectively broke down the interview. IMO Graham essentially did say that.

 

I have never personally attacked Graham or anyone else in my posts. I try to reasonably evaluate whatever the issue might be and then provide a foundation for why I arrived at the conclusion I did. Intelligent people can agree to disagree. I have presented pretty thorough reasons in previous posts why I believe Graham made it personal and why I believe he was wrong. Go back and read them - You can disagree with my reasoning; however, I would hardly categroize it as idiotic...any more than I would categorize your stance as idiotic. We just disagree.

Edited February 2, 2014 by billsfan1959

[Kelly the Dog]

Wait, saying a team should draft another QB in the 1st round isn't calling EJ a bust?

No. Not really. Very, very few QBs become star, franchise QBs that you really want on your team. How many are there in the league at any one time? 10-12 or so? Also, most teams need a very good back-up. There is at least a reasonable faction of people who think you should draft a QB in the first two rounds every year until you get a surefire star, because it's the only way to win. EJ surely needs another year or two to know if he is going to be a star QB, which is more important than a franchise QB. There are reasons to believe that he won't be. But that doesn't mean you already, absolutely, say he is a bust or think he is going to be a bust.

[4merper4mer]

Yeah, you are in the minority.

 

The truth is that very few Bills fans actually POST here........an absolute fraction of a fraction of a percent of Bills fans as a whole......... and a very high percentage of the regulars here have become zealots in defense of an undeniably poorly run organization.

 

Example: NOBODY said that the Bills shouldn't give EJ Manuel more than one season to prove himself.

 

NOBODY.

 

Yet that is your ridiculously exxagerated take.

 

And then there are the people who insist that Graham "essentially told EJ that he thinks EJ is a bust".

 

Didn't happen. Graham explained his position.

 

The board is most definitely not better off with people posting garbage like that.

 

And there are a WHOLE LOT of those idiotic takes in this thread.

 

Paraphrased, Graham's original question was "How will you react if the Bills use the first pick in this year's draft to pick either your replacement or someone who will compete with you?".

 

Subtract EJ from the equation, and substitute any NFL starter in his spot and let me know a "good" answer to that question. There isn't one and that isn't a defense of EJ. EJ had a bad response from a spectrum of possible bad responses. Graham put him on the spot and in am impossible situation because:

 

A: He is poor at his job, did no preparation, and shot from the hip.

B: Decided to give a loaded question because he is a douche or has a problem with EJ or

C: Decided to ask a loaded question to get Skip Bayless type attention on himself.

 

None of those choices paint him in a real good light and his past history does nothing to indicate he has matured enough as a professional to somehow have the question crafted as a precursor to a better follow up. Occum's Shaver tells me the correct answer is one of the three choices I listed above.

 

The Bills may be a badly run organization and EJ may be the worst combination of horrible player and massive jerk on Earth; it's still a bad question from an unimaginative twit.

 

my first thought was this guy has probably been banned before lol, so he may have been here awhile xd

 

That isn't right. He has been around a long time and knows a lot.

 

No. Not really. Very, very few QBs become star, franchise QBs that you really want on your team. How many are there in the league at any one time? 10-12 or so? Also, most teams need a very good back-up. There is at least a reasonable faction of people who think you should draft a QB in the first two rounds every year until you get a surefire star, because it's the only way to win. EJ surely needs another year or two to know if he is going to be a star QB, which is more important than a franchise QB. There are reasons to believe that he won't be. But that doesn't mean you already, absolutely, say he is a bust or think he is going to be a bust.

 

But by drafting a QB at #1 you, in part, arrest EJ's potential development by denying him a needed piece of the puzzle whether it be a game changing TE, an OT, or even a finishing piece to the defense like a LB who can help stop the run which ultimately takes pressure off the offense.

 

You also automatically, rightly or wrongly, put doubt into his mind. This could be a positive, but the odds are it will be a negative.

 

And none of this matters that much because EJ has no say in the matter and Graham asking him about the Bills drafting a QB is silly at best. It would have been an appropriate question for Whaley or even Greggo Marrone.

[chris heff]

 

 

Yeah, you are in the minority.

 

The truth is that very few Bills fans actually POST here........an absolute fraction of a fraction of a percent of Bills fans as a whole......... and a very high percentage of the regulars here have become zealots in defense of an undeniably poorly run organization.

 

Example: NOBODY said that the Bills shouldn't give EJ Manuel more than one season to prove himself.

 

NOBODY.

 

Yet that is your ridiculously exaggerated take.

 

And then there are the people who insist that Graham "essentially told EJ that he thinks EJ is a bust".

 

Didn't happen. Graham explained his position.

 

The board is most definitely not better off with people posting garbage like that.

 

And there are a WHOLE LOT of those idiotic takes in this thread.

There were people on this site calling EJ a bust before last season even started.

[Maury Ballstein]

 

 

Yeah, you are in the minority.

 

The truth is that very few Bills fans actually POST here........an absolute fraction of a fraction of a percent of Bills fans as a whole......... and a very high percentage of the regulars here have become zealots in defense of an undeniably poorly run organization.

 

Example: NOBODY said that the Bills shouldn't give EJ Manuel more than one season to prove himself.

 

NOBODY.

 

Yet that is your ridiculously exaggerated take.

 

And then there are the people who insist that Graham "essentially told EJ that he thinks EJ is a bust".

 

Didn't happen. Graham explained his position.

 

The board is most definitely not better off with people posting garbage like that.

 

And there are a WHOLE LOT of those idiotic takes in this thread.

 

Boo hoo...go join a "mainstream board" with real bills fans. Wahhhhhhhh

[Kelly the Dog]

 

But by drafting a QB at #1 you, in part, arrest EJ's potential development by denying him a needed piece of the puzzle whether it be a game changing TE, an OT, or even a finishing piece to the defense like a LB who can help stop the run which ultimately takes pressure off the offense.

 

You also automatically, rightly or wrongly, put doubt into his mind. This could be a positive, but the odds are it will be a negative.

 

And none of this matters that much because EJ has no say in the matter and Graham asking him about the Bills drafting a QB is silly at best. It would have been an appropriate question for Whaley or even Greggo Marrone.

Never said it was a good idea. I wouldn't do it myself, especially at 9 or wherever they are drafting. I think we need a different player too. I was just answering Doc's question.

[BADOLBILZ]

1. Actually, there have been a number of posters who have said/insinuated just that: EJ is not the answer and the Bills need to look for another QB

2. In regard to Graham, read through my previous posts in this thread where I objectively broke down the interview. Graham essentially did say that.

 

I have never personally attacked Graham or anyone else in my posts. I try to reasonably evaluate whatever the issue might be and then provide a foundation for why I arrived at the conclusion I did. Intelligent people can agree to disagree. I have presented pretty thorough reasons in previous posts why I believe Graham made it personal and why I believe he was wrong. Go back and read them - You can disagree with my reasoning; however, I would hardly categroize it as idiotic...any more than I would categorize your stance as idiotic. We just disagree.

 

Very few people have outright said that they felt that they are certain that Manuel is definitely not the answer at QB and I have seen none that said the shouldn't be given another chance to earn the job.

 

The people who want to shield Manuel from competition make the exaggerated claims like you do. He has a long time left on his contract, he is cheap and unless he is dreadful he will be given ample opportunity to earn the Bills QB job.

 

That is the reality that so many in this thread want to deny.

 

As for your second point.......if you read the TG article you saw his explanation. Why do you feel the need to pretend that he said that he said that EJ is a bust?

[3rdand12]

Has any team drafted QB back to back with first round picks ?

[MDH]

 

And that was at a time when the QB was actually LESS important than he is today.

 

You could win a SB with a journeyman back then.....as we unfortunately found out at the hands of Jeff Hostetler and Mark Rypien.

 

Nowadays.......you need a HOF type QB to win a SB. It's been a lifetime since Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer hoisted Lombardi's and the league has changed immensely since then.

 

I won't disagree with your basic premise, that the QB is the most important position on the field, but I will disagree that it can't be done without a HOF type QB.

 

For one, Joe Flacco. That guy won't sniff the HOF and when it's all said and done will be considered that same type of journeyman QB. In fact, despite Rypian's reputation as a journeyman that guy (and the skins offence) had a few incredible seasons. He was one of the best QBs in the league for those years. He just couldn't sustain it.

 

Exhibit 2, Eli Manning. He'll join Plunket as the only two time SB winners to not be in the Hall. He better turn things around quickly if he wants to change that.

 

Those are two recent QBs who aren't all time greats. Sure, they both played very well in spurts, when their teams needed them to, which helped them win, but they aren't Peyton, Brady or Rodgers.

 

If Seattle wins today that will be another QB who wasn't the focal point of their offence to win the big game. Sure Wilson may go on to do great things (and don't me me wrong, he's good) but he'd be in the same boat as Flacco in terms of his contributions this year...he rode a dominant D to the title.

[billsfan1959]

Very few people have outright said that they felt that they are certain that Manuel is definitely not the answer at QB and I have seen none that said the shouldn't be given another chance to earn the job.

 

The people who want to shield Manuel from competition make the exaggerated claims like you do. He has a long time left on his contract, he is cheap and unless he is dreadful he will be given ample opportunity to earn the Bills QB job.

 

That is the reality that so many in this thread want to deny.

 

As for your second point.......if you read the TG article you saw his explanation. Why do you feel the need to pretend that he said that he said that EJ is a bust?

 

1. My recollection is that there have been posters who have said he needs to be replaced. At the very least, as you pointed out: A "few people have outright said that they felt that they are certain that Manuel is definitely not the answer at QB." To qualify that with, "I have seen none that said the shouldn't be given another chance to earn the job." is really arguing over semantics. If one feels "certain" EJ is not the answer, it would really logically follow that they do not believe he should be given a chance. Said outright or insinuated - IMO, it is what they meant.

 

2. In regard to Graham. There isn't a poster on this forum, including you, that knows for a "fact" what Graham meant in his response to EJ's question. Only Graham knows. The rest of us can only evaluate all the information and reach an opinion. I did read Graham's responses "after the fact." You can choose to believe them. That is your right. I choose to not believe them because I do not feel they reconcile with what actually took place during the interview. Again, I invite you to go back, read my reasons why, and offer a counter argument as to why I am wrong. I am not afraid to have my logic critiqued.

 

In your initial post, you presented two things as "fact:" (1) That NOBODY ever said EJ should'nt be given another chance and (2) That Graham NEVER said EJ was a bust. In purely literal terms you may be correct; however, I believe, again, you were standing on semantics - and, I believe an opinion can be reached that both of those things did occur.

 

I didn't respond to your initial post because I disagreed with your opinion. You can have whatever opinion you want. I responded because you presented your opinions as fact, but, more than that, you then chose to label as "garbage" and "idiotic" anyone's opinion differed - such as my opinion.

 

Let me assure you that I "pretend" nothing. I write what I believe and I try, whenever possible to provide reasonable foundations as to why I believe it.

[YoloinOhio]

I won't disagree with your basic premise, that the QB is the most important position on the field, but I will disagree that it can't be done without a HOF type QB.

 

For one, Joe Flacco. That guy won't sniff the HOF and when it's all said and done will be considered that same type of journeyman QB. In fact, despite Rypian's reputation as a journeyman that guy (and the skins offence) had a few incredible seasons. He was one of the best QBs in the league for those years. He just couldn't sustain it.

 

Exhibit 2, Eli Manning. He'll join Plunket as the only two time SB winners to not be in the Hall. He better turn things around quickly if he wants to change that.

 

Those are two recent QBs who aren't all time greats. Sure, they both played very well in spurts, when their teams needed them to, which helped them win, but they aren't Peyton, Brady or Rodgers.

 

If Seattle wins today that will be another QB who wasn't the focal point of their offence to win the big game. Sure Wilson may go on to do great things (and don't me me wrong, he's good) but he'd be in the same boat as Flacco in terms of his contributions this year...he rode a dominant D to the title.

+1. This is why Brady hasn't won a SB since 2004 and Manning, Brees and Rodgers only have 1 each right now.