May Day 10 Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 IMO, if a new owner (looks like MLSE/Rogers is getting their ducks in a row) wants Toronto, they are going to get/go for Toronto. There would be no desire/motivation to play any games in Buffalo, nor have any ties, other than a few early ceremonious ones played out for the masses to make it look like we didnt really lose our team. It appears they have a desire to build an NFL stadium, and that isnt going to be for 4 games, 6 games, or 7 games. Buffalo/NYS/Erie will likewise not make significant updates to RWS or build anew for 4 dates/year.
BillnutinHouston Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) As for the Bills needing this series I also stand by my assertion that it is complete hogwash. They don't need to sell off a game to remain economically viable. As it stands under their current owner the team is in absolutely no financial trouble. I submit that the above statements almost completely miss the point of the TO series. Brandon is trying to set the team up to be not just "viable" but actually, at least minimally attractive to a new owner from a financial standpoint. In contrast to Mr. Wilson, the next ownership/investor group will likely be up to their ears in debt and possibly looking to build a new stadium. What investor group in the real world sits in that position and settles for just "viable" or "not in financial trouble"? That doesn't cut it, you must have return on your sizeable investment or else the Buffalo thing just doesn't work. Again I say, we should all be thankful for Brandon's efforts to link up the Bills to Toronto - he's doing us a favor whether we realize it or not. Do I like this? Of course not, but who ever said I had to? Edited January 30, 2014 by BillnutinHouston
KollegeStudnet Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Simple, if the Bills didn't suck 14 years straight...the Toronto series would have been a success.
section122 Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 I submit that the above statements almost completely miss the point of the TO series. Brandon is trying to set the team up to be not just "viable" but actually, at least minimally attractive to a new owner from a financial standpoint. In contrast to Mr. Wilson, the next ownership/investor group will likely be up to their ears in debt and possibly looking to build a new stadium. What investor group in the real world sits in that position and settles for just "viable" or "not in financial trouble"? That doesn't cut it, you must have return on your sizeable investment or else the Buffalo thing just doesn't work. Again I say, we should all be thankful for Brandon's efforts to link up the Bills to Toronto - he's doing us a favor whether we realize it or not. Do I like this? Of course not, but who ever said I had to? I know that you feel this way but what about the Toronto games makes them more viable? Why does any investor need Toronto to be successful so far as to put a game there. I won't argue having brand identity in Toronto doesn't help but I will argue that putting a game there that is the way to accomplish that. The games don't sell out, the players don't like it, and there has been no hard data presented that it has been any part of the uptick in Ontario season ticket holders that Brandon claims to be the case. I am always open and willing to mold and shape my opinions so why does it have to be the sale of a game to make this thing work? Why can't it be any of the things I laid out in my previous post to increase brand awareness/identity?
KollegeStudnet Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 I doubt an NFL team moves to Toronto within the next 10 years. LA would be número uno
section122 Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 I doubt an NFL team moves to Toronto within the next 10 years. LA would be número uno I dooubt either of them will get a team. LA has many hurdles and I honestly think that their not being a team in the NFL is more beneficial to the league than having one there. The threat constantly looms over fans heads and can be used to leverage ridiculous stadium deals. When a team moves there the threat is gone.
xsoldier54 Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Simple, if the Bills didn't suck 14 years straight...the Toronto series would have been a success. I don't agree. It is the fact that they are from Buffalo that makes this a bad idea. People from Toronto hate Buffalo. It is a hockey thing related to the Leafs and Sabres. It is a bad Idea for a team from Buffalo to try and play a game in Toronto. Bad premise that will never work.
BillnutinHouston Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) I know that you feel this way but what about the Toronto games makes them more viable? Why does any investor need Toronto to be successful so far as to put a game there. I won't argue having brand identity in Toronto doesn't help but I will argue that putting a game there that is the way to accomplish that. The games don't sell out, the players don't like it, and there has been no hard data presented that it has been any part of the uptick in Ontario season ticket holders that Brandon claims to be the case. I am always open and willing to mold and shape my opinions so why does it have to be the sale of a game to make this thing work? Why can't it be any of the things I laid out in my previous post to increase brand awareness/identity? You may recall that a few years ago the Bills conducted a "marketing" study in Canada, I believe led by Mary Owens (Ralph's relative). The purpose of the study as I recall was to learn about Canadians' attitudes about the Bills and how the Bills could reach out to them more effectively. It would not shock me if the Bills were told in effect, "I won't think of you as my team until you play games in my town". If you put yourself in the shoes of Canadian fans, its not hard to imagine the Bills getting this kind of polite yet direct feedback. Of course, I'm sure they didn't expect to have to watch bad teams and have to pay high prices for the privilege. Edited January 30, 2014 by BillnutinHouston
section122 Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 You may recall that a few years ago the Bills conducted a "marketing" study in Canada, I believe led by Mary Owens (Ralph's relative). The purpose of the study as I recall was to learn about Canadians' attitudes about the Bills and how the Bills could reach out to them more effectively. It would not shock me if the Bills were told in effect, "I won't think of you as my team until you play games in my town". If you put yourself in the shoes of Canadian fans, its not hard to imagine the Bills getting this kind of polite yet direct feedback. Of course, I'm sure they didn't expect to have to watch bad teams and have to pay high prices for the privilege. Again though this is your conjecture of what maybe was said to the Bills. Several of the Canadian Bills fans on this board hate the series. I will agree that the price/product do not help sell the privilege at all. That said it doesn't hurt the team in Buffalo as they sell many more tickets in Buffalo with this same sub par product for 14 years running. I think we both agree that having Toronto support the Bills is a great idea. I think our disagreement comes from whether or not a game needs to be played there to achieve it.
Buffalo Barbarian Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 There is absolutely no way a true Canadian would stand for "No Beer after third quarter"...not happening. they will get over it
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted February 5, 2014 Author Posted February 5, 2014 Not sure how accurate it is, because it's just from a recent CFL message board post, but FWIW: http://www.lionbackers.com/bc_lions/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27450&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15 MLSE CEO Leiweke said last week they hired an American stadium contractor to advise on upgrading BMO to 30,000 seats and on the construction of a NFL-sized stadium in Downsview. So we likely know the source of this most recent NFL survey, designed to gauge the interest of Toronto corporations in buy $50,000 seat licenses in a proposed NFL stadium. Getting corporations to buy seat licenses is the only way MLSE/Tannenbaum can finance building a NFL stadium in Toronto. I have not tried to confirm the part about "an American stadium contractor," but other parts seem consistent with some of the claims in this late 11/2013 article from around the time of the Bon Jovi news (no attributed quotes, though): http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/11/25/wheels-quietly-in-motion-to-move-buffalo-bills-to-toronto/ According to multiple sources MLSE would likely buy the Toronto Argonauts, because Goodell has long told interested parties in Toronto that he does not want to be the commissioner that kills the CFL, and so, the Toronto Argonauts must be protected. * * * * * MLSE, in turn, would make its money on the construction and operation of a new football stadium that would be heavily financed by personal seat licences (PSLs) . . . It is still just a plan, and plans can go wrong. But the plan is that the Bills, as they have done under Wilson with their lukewarm Bills in Toronto series, would follow the money.
oman128 Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 The NfL should take over the CFL and merge it 8 teams 1 in each division, and millions of new fans for our NFL products. More players, more teams more cities, new rivalries.
VanCity Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 Again though this is your conjecture of what maybe was said to the Bills. Several of the Canadian Bills fans on this board hate the series. I will agree that the price/product do not help sell the privilege at all. That said it doesn't hurt the team in Buffalo as they sell many more tickets in Buffalo with this same sub par product for 14 years running. I think we both agree that having Toronto support the Bills is a great idea. I think our disagreement comes from whether or not a game needs to be played there to achieve it. I fall into the category of "Canadian Bills fan who hates the Toronto Series". I grew up there, surrounded by fans of almost every NFL team aside from the Bills. Toronto is not loyal to any one team in the NFL and, based on the length of time that the NFL has been popular and the allegiances formed with certain franchises by the city's NFL fan populace, I expect it would be a good amount of time before we would see a unified fan base rooting for a Toronto franchise, never mind one that many of them root against and have for years. Ergo, the support for the team sucks, the stadium sucks, the pre-game atmosphere is a joke and it puts the Bills at a disadvantage while burning one of their home games. I see no reason that a team looking to break a 14 year playoff drought would accept a game there aside from finances. Here's an idea: figure out what the Seahawks have done. Cross-border support for the Hawks is incredible in the Canadian Pacific Northwest. The number of fans from Vancouver, the BC Interior (Kelowna, Kamloops) and Vancouver Island that own season tickets, wear Seahawks paraphernalia and loudly cheer for the Hawks is immense. I go to 1-3 games every year in Seattle and am joined by thousands of border crossing fans. How did they do this? By offering a great stadium experience? Having "cool" uniforms and branded paraphernalia? By having a winning franchise? (FYI, I have been going to Hawks games for 8 years and the support from the North has been relatively un-changed and consistently strong despite some rather lean years). I really have no idea what the reason is. I go because I miss the in-stadium NFL experience that I had growing up and going to Bills games. If Toronto can harness what has happened with the Vancouver area, the Bills won't need a game in Toronto, Toronto will go to Buffalo in droves.
KollegeStudnet Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 Hey, lets just add the CFL to the NFL and everybody wins. It will be like hockey and baseball who have American and Canadian teams. This has been going on for years. Doubters will come out of the woodwork, like they did before the NFL/AFL merger. I say, why not. It would be a helluva lot better than teams in London
TSNBDSC Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 I think one of the reasons for the Toronto Series was to show the NFL that Toronto COULD NOT support a team. Ralph was way ahead of us on this one.
3rdand12 Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 Hey, lets just add the CFL to the NFL and everybody wins. It will be like hockey and baseball who have American and Canadian teams. Hey ? You are pretty smart sometimes for a guy who walks around in a helmet . Interesting thought. complicated . vedddy interesting There is absolutely no way a true Canadian would stand for "No Beer after third quarter"...not happening. We Americans should be willing to give a little in negotiations. i find this to be a good starting point . I mean if we have to make a sacrifice right ? we are a reasonable people i think .
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted February 6, 2014 Author Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) Not sure if this was posted around the time of the Bon Jovi news a few months ago, but if so, it has details about Toronto stadium planning that I missed: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/livin-on-a-prayer-buying-bills-building-new-toronto-stadium-would-be-a-2-billion-play/article15581107/ Bob Hunter, who was MLSE's chief facilities and live entertainment officer, was put in charge of two special projects. * * * * * * . . . the Toronto Argonauts of the CFL . . . would be most affected by Hunter's second project. And that task is to design an NFL-style stadium to accommodate the Bills. So far, we're told, there is a design for a stadium that would cost $600-million but our informants say that won't get much these days and the final number will be closer to $1-billion plus another $1-billion (U.S.) or so to buy the Bills, making this a $2-billion play. Edited February 6, 2014 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead
Mark Vader Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 Here's an idea: figure out what the Seahawks have done. Cross-border support for the Hawks is incredible in the Canadian Pacific Northwest. The number of fans from Vancouver, the BC Interior (Kelowna, Kamloops) and Vancouver Island that own season tickets, wear Seahawks paraphernalia and loudly cheer for the Hawks is immense. I go to 1-3 games every year in Seattle and am joined by thousands of border crossing fans. How did they do this? By offering a great stadium experience? Having "cool" uniforms and branded paraphernalia? By having a winning franchise? (FYI, I have been going to Hawks games for 8 years and the support from the North has been relatively un-changed and consistently strong despite some rather lean years). I really have no idea what the reason is. I go because I miss the in-stadium NFL experience that I had growing up and going to Bills games. If Toronto can harness what has happened with the Vancouver area, the Bills won't need a game in Toronto, Toronto will go to Buffalo in droves. Interesting point. Maybe there is a different attitude towards the NFL from western Canadians than eastern Canadians? There is a rivalry between Toronto & Buffalo, but do Vancouver & Seattle have a similar rivalry? Vancouver has an NHL team, Seattle doesn't. The Seahawks have a loyal fan base, but the Seahawks haven't been an NFL powerhouse until recently. So what is it that attracts the fans from Vancouver to this team?
Dean Cain Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 3 things; LA is the NFLs next move,Toronto doesn't have an NFL stadium, the NBA & MLB teams have been poorly supported.
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