ALF Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 #Bills have til Mon to decide if they’ll allow DC candidate Jim O’Neil to take CLE job. If not, Ravens LB coach Don Martindale is a target
Coach Tuesday Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 @MattRichWarren: Comparing base defenses: Jim Schwartz vs. Mike Pettine http://t.co/c0VqAfAoza via @BuffRumblings Schematically, I do hope Schwartz adjusts to fit the Bills' personnel. Not only because I am concerned about having to re-tool the personnel yet again, but more importantly, because I think Pettine's philosophy is the smarter and more effective one. What I love about the Rex Ryan/Mike Pettine defense is that it is designed to confuse. Confusion buys time for the pass rush, and forces the offense to make mistakes in protection. In today's passing league where QBs are so prepared pre-snap, making them (and their o-linemen) think for an extra half-second is often the difference between success and failure. The "wide 9", by contrast, seems to me to be a cheap way to generate more pressure using a base 4-3. And if the pressure doesn't get there, you're left with a vanilla D and huge, extra-wide running lanes. You also need your LBs to be thumpers because they'll be getting less protection from the front four. I'm not a big fan of it. On a related point, I can see why Schwartz's D was considered too dependent on the front 4 in Tennessee: they had one really good - albeit dominant - player on that defense. When Fat Albert was on his game, he was hands-down the most dominant and disruptive defender in the league, and I can understand why you'd design a defense around him if you were Schwartz - especially since they had no other real studs on that roster. So you design a defense around Albert, who was unblockable when he cared - and then when he took plays or games off, your D understandably would look totally ineffective and ill-designed. That's why Albert was such a coach killer. Anyhow - assuming Schwartz is as flexible as they say - I'm still a huge fan of this hire.
Beerball Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 My biggest problem with this hire is that if the Bills do well we'll keep him only for one year. Another rent-a-coach, who will look like a viable HC to some other team. As for me, I remember Schwartz as a putz, getting into embarrassing situations and not appearing to have clue one as a HC making game time decisions. Maybe he's one of those guys who's a very good coordinator but who can't make it as a HC. Your first 2 sentences don't match your second 2. Is he a sure fire can't miss here for a year "rent-a-coach" or is he someone who get's into "embarrassing situations" who "doesn't appear to have a clue as a HC?" Pettine's situation was unique. I'd appreciate it if someone could find out when this last happened. Typically a person has to show consistency over a period of seasons before they are considered for a HC job. When last did a first year coordinator (with a team) get a HC gig?
YoloinOhio Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 Your first 2 sentences don't match your second 2. Is he a sure fire can't miss here for a year "rent-a-coach" or is he someone who get's into "embarrassing situations" who "doesn't appear to have a clue as a HC?" Pettine's situation was unique. I'd appreciate it if someone could find out when this last happened. Typically a person has to show consistency over a period of seasons before they are considered for a HC job. When last did a first year coordinator (with a team) get a HC gig? #Browns
Coach Tuesday Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 Pettine's situation was unique. I'd appreciate it if someone could find out when this last happened. Typically a person has to show consistency over a period of seasons before they are considered for a HC job. When last did a first year coordinator (with a team) get a HC gig? Wisenhunt
K-9 Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 We should all hope Schwartz becomes the hot HC candidate next year. On a side note, I'm bracing for some fallout from the political upheaval at One Bills Drive. Some frayed egos from what I understand. GO BILLS!!! ... Pettine's situation was unique. I'd appreciate it if someone could find out when this last happened. Typically a person has to show consistency over a period of seasons before they are considered for a HC job. When last did a first year coordinator (with a team) get a HC gig? Exactly why some of us predicted there was no way he'd get his HC gig this year. I can't recall the last time, if ever, this happened. Then again, the bungled Cleveland HC search is what made it possible in the first place. GO BILLS!!!
YoloinOhio Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 Wisenhunt Whisenhunt took a team to the Superbowl as an HC.... he only became an OC for a year in between HC gigs We should all hope Schwartz becomes the hot HC candidate next year. On a side note, I'm bracing for some fallout from the political upheaval at One Bills Drive. Some frayed egos from what I understand. GO BILLS!!! Exactly why some of us predicted there was no way he'd get his HC gig this year. I can't recall the last time, if ever, this happened. Then again, the bungled Cleveland HC search is what made it possible in the first place. GO BILLS!!! What are you referring to? Inquiring minds want to know. haha. I don't live in Bflo so never hear this stuff.
Beerball Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 Wisenhunt & the one prior to that? & prior to that? Not being an ass, just wondering?
The Big Cat Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 Would you prefer we get a crappy coach so no one will want to hire them? This is the part of the NFL Bills fans aren't used to because no one rarely wants our assistants but this happens every year. If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life...
ColdBlueNorth Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) Schematically, I do hope Schwartz adjusts to fit the Bills' personnel. Not only because I am concerned about having to re-tool the personnel yet again, but more importantly, because I think Pettine's philosophy is the smarter and more effective one. What I love about the Rex Ryan/Mike Pettine defense is that it is designed to confuse. Confusion buys time for the pass rush, and forces the offense to make mistakes in protection. In today's passing league where QBs are so prepared pre-snap, making them (and their o-linemen) think for an extra half-second is often the difference between success and failure. The "wide 9", by contrast, seems to me to be a cheap way to generate more pressure using a base 4-3. And if the pressure doesn't get there, you're left with a vanilla D and huge, extra-wide running lanes. You also need your LBs to be thumpers because they'll be getting less protection from the front four. I'm not a big fan of it. On a related point, I can see why Schwartz's D was considered too dependent on the front 4 in Tennessee: they had one really good - albeit dominant - player on that defense. When Fat Albert was on his game, he was hands-down the most dominant and disruptive defender in the league, and I can understand why you'd design a defense around him if you were Schwartz - especially since they had no other real studs on that roster. So you design a defense around Albert, who was unblockable when he cared - and then when he took plays or games off, your D understandably would look totally ineffective and ill-designed. That's why Albert was such a coach killer. Anyhow - assuming Schwartz is as flexible as they say - I'm still a huge fan of this hire. The proof actually shows that Schwartz using a wide 9 for both ends and covering the gaps with the linebackers usually performed well against the very thing Pettine's system struggled with - that being stopping runs and stopping teams on 3rd down. The trade-offs are that I do think that Pettine's system generated more confusion, got to the QB more and created turnovers against opponents passing game, but our smaller ends were sometimes man-handled when they lined up shading inside against the O or head-up playing 2-gap. When the ends were covered by a lineman then pulling guards, uncovered linemen, and power running backs, would hit our smaller linebackers running downhill and we were gashed by those longer runs. Do I think we may have taken a step back? Honestly I do at this point. In my mind Pettine was a proven commodity and Schwartz not-so-much wearing the Bills colors. He is probably the best of the rest, if you discount Wade (and I am not sure that Wilson would ever agree to have him back). I think Pettine is a rare football guy who has been around football his entire life and is likely better suited to being creative with the personnel he has. Schwartz has shown that with the right pieces in his defense they can be very good. His defenses struggled against pass-catching tight ends, but I think he has the right personnel here to address that issue better, but he will need to tweak the roster to run the base he likes to run. I believe at least one linebacker that is a bit more stout at the point of attack will be needed and I am not sure if Kiko is out there every down - we will see. I believe Schwartz was in over his head as a HC, but I believe that the more simplified DC role will be one that he should thrive in. As I pointed out in an earlier response, there are quite a few examples of coordinators that failed as HC's, who seem to flourish when they get canned and go back into a coordinator role. Some folks are just better with that singular focus. Edited January 26, 2014 by ColdBlueNorth
Rob's House Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life... I see. Do as you say, not as you do?
BarleyNY Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 Your first 2 sentences don't match your second 2. Is he a sure fire can't miss here for a year "rent-a-coach" or is he someone who get's into "embarrassing situations" who "doesn't appear to have a clue as a HC?" Pettine's situation was unique. I'd appreciate it if someone could find out when this last happened. Typically a person has to show consistency over a period of seasons before they are considered for a HC job. When last did a first year coordinator (with a team) get a HC gig? Mike Tomlin was only a DC for one season. Vikings. Position coach before that. I don't think he's all that good of a HC, but I know many disagree.
billsfan1959 Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) Schematically, I do hope Schwartz adjusts to fit the Bills' personnel. Not only because I am concerned about having to re-tool the personnel yet again, but more importantly, because I think Pettine's philosophy is the smarter and more effective one. What I love about the Rex Ryan/Mike Pettine defense is that it is designed to confuse. Confusion buys time for the pass rush, and forces the offense to make mistakes in protection. In today's passing league where QBs are so prepared pre-snap, making them (and their o-linemen) think for an extra half-second is often the difference between success and failure. The "wide 9", by contrast, seems to me to be a cheap way to generate more pressure using a base 4-3. And if the pressure doesn't get there, you're left with a vanilla D and huge, extra-wide running lanes. You also need your LBs to be thumpers because they'll be getting less protection from the front four. I'm not a big fan of it. On a related point, I can see why Schwartz's D was considered too dependent on the front 4 in Tennessee: they had one really good - albeit dominant - player on that defense. When Fat Albert was on his game, he was hands-down the most dominant and disruptive defender in the league, and I can understand why you'd design a defense around him if you were Schwartz - especially since they had no other real studs on that roster. So you design a defense around Albert, who was unblockable when he cared - and then when he took plays or games off, your D understandably would look totally ineffective and ill-designed. That's why Albert was such a coach killer. Anyhow - assuming Schwartz is as flexible as they say - I'm still a huge fan of this hire. I am with you. IMHO, I think Whaley, Marrone, et al understand the step forward the defense took this year, while also understanding the areas that still need improvement. I just get the feeling the organization is going about the improvement of this team in a way we have not been used to seeing. I honestly believe they evaluated, in depth, what DC would be best suited to build on what has been accomplished with what personnel we have, while also improving the areas of weakness - as opposed to completely scrapping a system and starting over, or even dismissing what has proven to be effective (personnel and philosophy wise) - and hired that individual. I also believe it will not stop there, but extend to personnel brought in through free agency and the draft. I tend to be optimistic about things; however, not blindly so. I like what I have seen over the last year in terms of the direction this team is headed. I like this hire. I believe Schwartz proved himself to be more than capable as a DC in Tenn (really couldn't care less about HC stint in Det) and I am optimistic his philosophy and schemes will mesh with the attacking style defense this organization wants and was begun by Pettine. I may be completely wrong - but I hope not. Whether or not they accomplish that is another story. The truth is, we will not have a good idea until we see what the team does, personnel wise, through free agency, the draft, and philosophy wise through mini-camps/spring training... Edited January 26, 2014 by billsfan1959
DrDawkinstein Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 On a side note, I'm bracing for some fallout from the political upheaval at One Bills Drive. Some frayed egos from what I understand. GO BILLS!!! Yeah, whats all this about then?
billsfan1959 Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 Interview of Schwartz in 2004 by Football Outsiders http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ramblings/2004/football-outsiders-interview-jim-schwartz
Rockinon Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 I am cool with Schwartz...was hoping for somebody a little more accomplished for the QB job. A "guru" type. Downig has been in the NFL coaching ranks for 12 years, but is only 33. I guess that is not a big deal, but the biggest criticism of Matt Stafford has been poor mechanics...EJ's biggest issue. But hell, what do I know? I don't think EJ needs a guru type coach. He has a lot of talent and I don't want him ruined by a coach that makes him think too much. What I saw from EJ was more a matter of being indecisive and jumpy like a lot of rookies. I think he just needs a coach that can help him make decisions more quickly and help him get through his progressions fast. From what I saw of the offense, the talent is there and the scheme is sound. I just think execution was not there do to inexperience.
thebandit27 Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 Your first 2 sentences don't match your second 2. Is he a sure fire can't miss here for a year "rent-a-coach" or is he someone who get's into "embarrassing situations" who "doesn't appear to have a clue as a HC?" Pettine's situation was unique. I'd appreciate it if someone could find out when this last happened. Typically a person has to show consistency over a period of seasons before they are considered for a HC job. When last did a first year coordinator (with a team) get a HC gig? Mike Tomlin I believe
billsfan1959 Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 Your first 2 sentences don't match your second 2. Is he a sure fire can't miss here for a year "rent-a-coach" or is he someone who get's into "embarrassing situations" who "doesn't appear to have a clue as a HC?" Pettine's situation was unique. I'd appreciate it if someone could find out when this last happened. Typically a person has to show consistency over a period of seasons before they are considered for a HC job. When last did a first year coordinator (with a team) get a HC gig? Pettine was pretty consistent as a DC over the last five seasons. While many people want to view his time in NY as being "under the shadow" of Ryan - that was perception only (unless you want to interpret it literally before Ryan lost all that weight). The truth is Pettine learned under Ryan in Baltimore. They share similar philosophies and he knew what Ryan wanted in a defense in NY. However, Ryan gave him as much autonomy as any coordinator gets. He ran the defensive meetings, he designed the defensive game plans, and he was the one that made the defensive calls during the games. So, I don't think the Browns looked at him in terms of just what he did with the Bills. I think they looked at him as being consistent over five seasons as a DC.
KOKBILLS Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 My biggest problem with this hire is that if the Bills do well we'll keep him only for one year. Another rent-a-coach, who will look like a viable HC to some other team. As for me, I remember Schwartz as a putz, getting into embarrassing situations and not appearing to have clue one as a HC making game time decisions. Maybe he's one of those guys who's a very good coordinator but who can't make it as a HC. I think Schwartz is a few years off from getting another NFL chance...He's a Defensive Coach who had one of the best Offenses in the league, some premier talent on Defense, yet only went to the Playoffs once and had a pretty awful record in Detriot overall...No one is going to be lining him up for interviews unless the Bills Defense is simply amazing in 2014... After this Pettine thing it just shows that anything can happen...So worrying about anything other that getting the best man for the job is useless...And I do think, all things considered, Schwartz was a pretty strong hire for Marrone...
Kevin Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 I don't care who the Bills hire anymore. I just want to watch them play live football in January/February.
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