peterpan Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 They are many ways to improve our run O, pass blocking, and run D, by indirectly helping them, rather than directly. I like Mike Evans at our 9 pick. --- He will help our run defense by helping our 3rd down % and keeping the D completely off the field. He will help our run O by forcing the D to respect our WRs with additional DBs. He will help our pass blocking by creating mismatches, which wont allow the other team to blitz as often. We also need a TE, badly, and we have for 10 years. TE is a real difference maker position in the modern NFL. I like the kid from ND, Troy Niklas in the 2nd round. He is ENORMOUS at 6'7'' 270#. He is a great blocker - so he will help our run game and pass O when he isn't set out on routes. With his size he will be a huge red zone threat - which means more points which means teams are passing on us trying to tie the game rather than running the clock out for a win. In the 3rd we could focus on G, LB, and T, but I dont think we should count on finding a starter persay. Hopefully we can add a FA or two. I like the the idea of adding a decent T who has struggled at times, someone like Oher. So many college Ts get pushed inside to G and they are prob bowlers, Levitre, Mankins, Evans, etc. Why not sign Oher, let him work out at RT, AND try him inside at G? Then start him wherever makes most sense for the team?? He could be a probowl caliber G for all we know, and he would be an improvement at RT too. The truth of the matter is that Brady is very good at slinking around in the pocket, while Buffalo's QBs were atrocious at it this season. So many times they simply rolled away from the protection and into the pressure; one of the things that has to be fixed (and usually comes with experience). There's a reason that guys like Brady, Manning, Brees, etc. seem so difficult to get to, and it isn't because they have these all-world OLs. Manning's all-pro LT went down for the season, and some former UDFA named Chris Clark came in and seamlessly filled in at LT...because Manning recognizes pressure and how to avoid it. Sure, Buffalo's OL could use an upgrade; the fact is that most teams' OLs can use an upgrade. The truth of the matter is that Brady is very good at slinking around in the pocket, while Buffalo's QBs were atrocious at it this season. So many times they simply rolled away from the protection and into the pressure; one of the things that has to be fixed (and usually comes with experience). There's a reason that guys like Brady, Manning, Brees, etc. seem so difficult to get to, and it isn't because they have these all-world OLs. Manning's all-pro LT went down for the season, and some former UDFA named Chris Clark came in and seamlessly filled in at LT...because Manning recognizes pressure and how to avoid it. Sure, Buffalo's OL could use an upgrade; the fact is that most teams' OLs can use an upgrade.
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 I like Mosley as a player. My preference, however, is to wait until round 2 and draft Chris Borland out of Wisconsin. I think he's a better fit to play as a thumper next to Kiko, and he's got just as much play-making ability as Mosley (for the record, Mosley is the better tackler IMO). That would free Buffalo up to take the best player at 9...probably a big-bodied pass catcher. I LOVE Borland. He reeks of London Fletcher. I think because of his size, he will drop in the draft and you can get him in the 3rd or later. But he would look great next to Kiko. Baller. The truth of the matter is that Brady is very good at slinking around in the pocket, while Buffalo's QBs were atrocious at it this season. So many times they simply rolled away from the protection and into the pressure; one of the things that has to be fixed (and usually comes with experience). There's a reason that guys like Brady, Manning, Brees, etc. seem so difficult to get to, and it isn't because they have these all-world OLs. Manning's all-pro LT went down for the season, and some former UDFA named Chris Clark came in and seamlessly filled in at LT...because Manning recognizes pressure and how to avoid it. Sure, Buffalo's OL could use an upgrade; the fact is that most teams' OLs can use an upgrade. Well said. They are many ways to improve our run O, pass blocking, and run D, by indirectly helping them, rather than directly. I like Mike Evans at our 9 pick. --- He will help our run defense by helping our 3rd down % and keeping the D completely off the field. He will help our run O by forcing the D to respect our WRs with additional DBs. He will help our pass blocking by creating mismatches, which wont allow the other team to blitz as often. We also need a TE, badly, and we have for 10 years. TE is a real difference maker position in the modern NFL. I like the kid from ND, Troy Niklas in the 2nd round. He is ENORMOUS at 6'7'' 270#. He is a great blocker - so he will help our run game and pass O when he isn't set out on routes. With his size he will be a huge red zone threat - which means more points which means teams are passing on us trying to tie the game rather than running the clock out for a win. In the 3rd we could focus on G, LB, and T, but I dont think we should count on finding a starter persay. Hopefully we can add a FA or two. I like the the idea of adding a decent T who has struggled at times, someone like Oher. So many college Ts get pushed inside to G and they are prob bowlers, Levitre, Mankins, Evans, etc. Why not sign Oher, let him work out at RT, AND try him inside at G? Then start him wherever makes most sense for the team?? He could be a probowl caliber G for all we know, and he would be an improvement at RT too. I would love a Mike Evans/ TE combo. I will say I'm really warming up to the end of Ebron at 9 though. I love getting the guy considered the best at his position. Apparently, Ebron in street clothes just looks like a stud.
Mr. WEO Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 These absolutisms are ridiculous because you can spin this argument any way you want. There have been plenty of Top 10 OLs who have been part of championship winning teams, as well as Top 10 selected playmakers who won SBs. Conversely there were many Top 10 picks at every position who turned out to be spectacular busts, even for championship teams. That's why this is a ridiculous debate. The Bills' problem over the last decade has simply been poor talent evaluation in addressing their needs. The 2013 draft looks to be a bit more promising and hopefully Whaley will continue the trend. There are still many holes in the roster, any any pick from among OL, WR, TE, LB will be valid in the first round. The hope is that they get a contributing player. There haven't been "plenty of top 10" tackels who have won SBs. It's just not true--certainly in the last 10 years. I would rather gamble on an impact player than spend a top 10 pick on a Tackle. I don't think it's a silly debate. Yeah! Future HOFer and another star TE have never "won a SB"--busts!! Yet look at all of those top ten drafted Tackles who have won a SB. Why there's........Jonathan Ogden Round 1 Pick # 4 1996. Superbowl XXXV. Ok, how about all of those top 10 drafted tackles who have played in a SB......hmmm. Walter Jones Round 1 Pick # 6 1997 SuperBowl XL How many top 10 drafted tackles over the past 10 years have even played in a playoff game? D'Brickashaw Ferguson Round 1 Pick #4 2006, multiple playoff games including two AF championship games Those are just a few off the top of my head. If you want to argue skill position over linemen at least check your facts. You are late to the discussion. We are talking about Tackles drafted in the top 10 in that past 10 years. That you had to go back 18 years to find one who was on a SB winning team , or played in one (and none since) doesn't help your point. When you say "all of those", I'm not sure who else you are referring to. Check your facts.
GG Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 There haven't been "plenty of top 10" tackels who have won SBs. It's just not true--certainly in the last 10 years. I would rather gamble on an impact player than spend a top 10 pick on a Tackle. I don't think it's a silly debate. You are late to the discussion. We are talking about Tackles drafted in the top 10 in that past 10 years. That you had to go back 18 years to find one who was on a SB winning team , or played in one (and none since) doesn't help your point. When you say "all of those", I'm not sure who else you are referring to. Check your facts. Well alrighty then, and exactly how many impact WRs drafted in Top 10 made it to the SB in the last decade?
Mr. WEO Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 Well alrighty then, and exactly how many impact WRs drafted in Top 10 made it to the SB in the last decade? Couple of points: I don't think that going to the SB is the only metric of a good pick. I was responding to a statement to that effect made by another poster regarding TE picks. WR is only one option. Could also be QB, RB, TE, pass rushing DE or LB. Players who, for the most part by themselves, can make big plays. (move the chians or get to the QB, as I previously said). LT is not that type of position--it can't be. More than any other unit on the team the O-line is an ensemble. The difference between a very good and a HOF LT can't be detected, in my opinion. But to answer your question, there were 2 top 10 WRs who went to the SB (Fitzgerald and Crabtree) since 2003. That's two more than LTs. But there is no question that many of the top 10 pick WRs on that list (AJ GReen, Julio Jones, Justin Blackman, Megatron, Braylon Edwards, Andre Johnson) made far more of an impact on their team's offense than any LT selected by any team during that time period.
GG Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 But to answer your question, there were 2 top 10 WRs who went to the SB (Fitzgerald and Crabtree) since 2003. That's two more than LTs. Levi Brown & Russell Okung say hi.
Cheddar's Dad Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 Couple of points: I don't think that going to the SB is the only metric of a good pick. I was responding to a statement to that effect made by another poster regarding TE picks. WR is only one option. Could also be QB, RB, TE, pass rushing DE or LB. Players who, for the most part by themselves, can make big plays. (move the chians or get to the QB, as I previously said). LT is not that type of position--it can't be. More than any other unit on the team the O-line is an ensemble. The difference between a very good and a HOF LT can't be detected, in my opinion. But to answer your question, there were 2 top 10 WRs who went to the SB (Fitzgerald and Crabtree) since 2003. That's two more than LTs. But there is no question that many of the top 10 pick WRs on that list (AJ GReen, Julio Jones, Justin Blackman, Megatron, Braylon Edwards, Andre Johnson) made far more of an impact on their team's offense than any LT selected by any team during that time period. Give it a rest, Weo.
thewildrabbit Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) You're overstating things to try and make a point. The Bills allowed 48 sacks this year (with basically 3 guys playing for the first time), the Pats allowed 40. http://espn.go.com/n...ks/seasontype/2 In 2012, the Bills allowed 30 sacks, the Pats allowed 27. http://espn.go.com/n...12/seasontype/2 In 2011, the Bills allowed 23 sacks and the Pats allowed 32. http://espn.go.com/n...11/seasontype/2 So in a 3 year span, the Bills gave up 2 more sacks than the Pats. Wow. I know we have to think of the Bills at the worst at everything but it's simply no true. I believe that minus the QBs (which makes or breaks teams), the Bills are at worst equal to the Pats in talent. Are you seriously comparing the Bills offensive coaches, schemes, WR corps, and O line of the Patriots to the Bills the last few years? Dunno why I'm even bothering. Nevertheless, I don't believe I'm overstating. The Bills haven't been a "good" team in any aspect for 14 years. Not a good QB, not a good O line, not a good WR corps, nor good coaching staffs or schemes. It takes an entire team to make things work. Just sliding a great QB into the equation isn't going to do anything, except perhaps get that QB killed. You are stating stats from an era when Ryan Fitzpatrick was the Buffalo Bills QB. A QB with a notoriously weak, and inaccurate arm. What made Fitz somewhat good tho, was that he had great escape-ability, to the tune of 5-6 yard per rush, which is Michael Vick-ish. Then he was known for having a very quick release, and ability to get the ball to the open receiver in sometimes under 2 seconds. Chan Gailey recognized Fitz's ability to get the ball out so quickly and adopted a quick - short passing scheme around his QB. Because Fitz was able to get the ball out so quickly (usually to Stevie Johnson) it negated the pass rush against him. Still, he was hit quite often even after getting the ball out so quickly. That quick - short passing offensive scheme, along with the "spread 4-5 receiver"offense, also allowed the Bills RB's to make such good yardage in fewer attempts. I don't think I can explain it any simpler this this... Do you seriously think that the difference between a scrub 6-10 team, and a team that can go to the super bowl is only one player? What is it with the mentality of Bills fans that they equate the backup players of other teams (especially playoff teams) to those of the Buffalo Bills? What happened this season when the Bills tried to put backup OG David Snow in the game to replace Kraig Urbik for a series in that first game against the NY Jets. What he did was promptly allow a sack on the first play. Snow didn't even last that series before he was pulled, benched and then later released. The Bills then also released the starting LG Colin Brown when the backup center was back from an injury to replace him, and then Whaley pulled a few guys off the waiver wire as the back ups. The Bills were exceedingly lucky they didn't have further injury to that O line this season as they had no real qualified adequate backups. Not at C, not at OG, not at OT. So much for the back up players for the Buffalo Bills O line! Edited January 25, 2014 by FeartheLosing
3rdand12 Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 Bills have been badder than worse on the O line forever its seeming. Whether player , scheme or injury . last year Gailey and Joe D did one hell of a job with a patchwork group . And the use of Fitzmagic was very smart But thats not even close to something to hang a hat upon. Wish the Bills could get just one group tightened up and functioning at a playoff level for a season. Maybe the defensive backs are closer . Surprised i am that so many dont value the O line as being a whole unit . And then how important it is they need to play strong games consistently. If we had 2 much better starers on that line , our RBs would be wreaking havoc and EJ would be a least servicable if not better . But i carry on dont I ?
Mr. WEO Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 Levi Brown & Russell Okung say hi. You are right--one more, not two (Levi Brown was RT in the SB). Okung is part of an o-line that has Wilson running for his life every Sunday.
ColdBlueNorth Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 In my mind, it would be Eric Ebron. He is the type if TE that the league is going toward. And the reason I would be OK with a OT in the top 10 is because our QB is significantly better without pressure on him (like most QBs) and although he has mobility I would rather him not be running for his life and getting hurt. He is still very inexperienced so the better the OL is the better he can learn, progress and not get hurt. Regardless of who he is throwing to, if he is running for his life and the pocket is constantly breaking down it won't matter what WRs or TEs are put there. Ebron is that high-risk, high-reward kind of player... TE's get hurt (alot), but having a TE with speed and hands creates so many options for an offense it is hard to pass on a good one. Chandler made Fitz a high efficiency QB in the red zone. Teams had to pick their poison down there, but Chandler getting injured set the offense back as I believe losing their key TE's in NE set their offense back, but they have an all pro veteran QB in Brady to compensate. I would not mind rolling the dice on him early... my biggest concern is injury with that type of player, but you have that risk with any player taken early.
justnzane Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 I'm not sure about Ebron at 9 guys. Is Ebron that much better than Amaro and/or ASJ? I dunno. I mean I like him, but I'm not sure I like him that much. In other words, I wouldn't be disappointed if we ended up with any of the top 3 TE's. We can technically trade down and still land 1 of the top 3 TE's. Also, other than Vernon Davis, has a TE ever been drafted in the top 10? Maybe I'm having a brain fart, but I can't think of one off the top of my head. Winslow Jr. Rickey Dudley at 9 in 96 Raiders Kyle Brady at 9 in 95 Jests (aka the pick the jests faithful were booing because they could have had Warren Sapp) Junion Miller at 7 in 80 Falcons Ken MacAfee at 7 in 78 49ers (drafted ahead of Ozzie Newsom and Todd Christensen, and only played for 2 seasons) Charle Young at 6 in 73 Iggles Paul Seymour at 7 in 73 Bills (at least he blocked for OJ that year) Riley Odoms at 5 in 72 Broncos Jerome Barkum at 9 in 72 Jests Ditka at 4 in 61
billykaykay Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 John Mackey had the build of a RB in today's NFL, that's the difference. Gronkowski, Graham, Davis, Cameron, Gates etc. are all taller, bigger, and yet just as fast. They're a complete matchup nightmare. In 2011, 5 of the 15 players in the NFL with the most receptions were TE's. That never happened before in the history of the NFL. In 2012, that figure was 3 TE's, and this year that figure was back down to only 1. However, a large part of the decline has been a result of Gronkowski being constantly injured, Hernandez getting arrested and Tony Gonzalez aging. Mackey was ahead of the curve in his day, but the evolution of the TE position in the passing game is certainly becoming more prominent in the NFL. This year there are a very good crop of TE's coming out of college and rest assured that they will be playing an important role in offenses around the league. I dunno. Reason I brought it up was b/c I don't remember Hackett using a TE much at all at Syracuse. Chandler led our team with receptions but our WR corps blew chunks this season. Many of the real good TE's today are former basketball players. I think that our scouts should be searching for these players who may have a football background in high school. Perhaps we could find a worthy TE prospect as a free agent after the draft.
cwchze Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 We need a playmaker at 9. Stud wide receiver or tight end. Need someone where EJ can just heave the ball to and he comes down with it...We have the rest of the pieces on offense.Need A Playmaker!
QB Bills Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) Allen had a great year, this is true. But that was found money. Patterson would have had all those yards and maybe more with Rivers throwing to him as the primary receiver. And the biggest difference in this offense over the previous year was Whisenhut, not Fluker. As I said, they were doing fine without a first round LT for a decade (number one scoring offense just 2 years ago). As for Rivers, it's still pretty much mostly on him as he threw more passes than the year before--his second highest ever. Matthews had a better year in total yards but, again in 2011, he too had a great year running behind that o-line for 1100 yards and 4.9 per. Caught far more passes too. I just don't see Fluker as much of a difference in a perennial offensive juggernaught. Because Reed and Palumalu exist is not a reason to believe any safety you pick in the top 10 (or 12) is going to be that kind of player. In fact, it has taken those outstanding players at the position (and maybe a handful of others) to even mention safety as a big impact position. It's silly to say that a skill position (playmaker) has to be a "HOF playmaker" to select him in the first. Especially if your alternative is an o-lineman. Playmakers move the chains or get to the QB in today's NFL (you can mention the handful of playmakers at DB, but you will have to ingnore all of the rest). A pretty good LT (think of Glenn, a second rounder) is indistinguishable, on him own, form a "great LT". That's just the nature of the position. It's an ensemble position, as are of the o-line spots. No offense, but you seem to have a very myopic view on this. You make it seem like the O-line isn't a factor in how teams 'move the chains or get to the qb'. Perhaps you should throw on a tape of Super Bowl 26 I think you should look at the difference between a good LT and a bad LT instead of contrasting a good one and a HOFer. If Cleveland had called up this year and offered Trent Richardson up for Cordy Glenn, would you have done it? He was taken third overall as a playmaker. My guess is no, and even though the Browns have Joe Thomas, I think that until they actually ripped off the Colts, they would have preferred that they had drafted Glenn in 2012. Its a team game, and every starting position on offense and defense counts. QB far more than others, granted. Calvin Johnson and Adrian Peterson are likely the two guys that you can say are inarguably the best at their positions. Skilled positions. If we go by your super bowl metric, how many championships have they played in? In any case, I'm all for taking Robinson at #9 if he's as good as people are making him out to be. I don't watch enough college ball to know myself. I'm looking at replacement value and I think the RBs and WRs are actually pretty good on this team, as is the defense. The QB is the big question mark but picking one at 9 doesn't seem like a viable option. The O line could use an influx of talent, in my opinion. The stats may not show it, but to me they looked like the weakest group out there (other than special teams). Edited January 25, 2014 by QB Bills
26CornerBlitz Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 Matt Smith has Ebron going to Bills at 9. I was going to start another post asking if 9 was too high for Ebron. I don't know anything about Matt Smith. I would love Ebron at 15 and an extra second round pick. I probably still lean OT at 9 but it sure would be nice to have a playmaker at TE. http://www.nfl.com/d...tt-smith/175604 Here's the corresponding video: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-draft/0ap2000000311752/No-9-pick-Bills-on-the-clock
GG Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 You are right--one more, not two (Levi Brown was RT in the SB). Okung is part of an o-line that has Wilson running for his life every Sunday. Ah, time honored TSW tradition. When facts don't back your story, time to change the debate angle. Levi wasn't drafted as a RT.
bufffan031 Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) Watching Ebron I believe he is the next coming of Vernon Davis. He has tremendous speed for tight end. Vernon Davis went 6th overall in 2006. If Ebron can run in the 4.5's particularly on the lower end of it. I would definitely pull the trigger at 9. Edited January 26, 2014 by bufffan031
YoloinOhio Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 The coaching staff has been very adamant that they are all in on EJ. They went out and got a QB coach for him and admitted they should have had one last year, and I think they are going to continue to utilize resources to make him successful. Clearly we need better ILBs and a RB to eventually replace Fred, but I think they will go offense in the first 2 rounds unless someone falls who they have high on their board. I expect OT and TE in the 1st and 2nd unless they go OT in FA.
starrymessenger Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 I don't see the Bills and Marrone using a first round pick on any TE who cannot block and I think they will prioritize the O-line in May. So I would not be surprised if they drafted Greg Robinson if he is still on the board. If they wanted to further strengthen the line while at the same time securing a TE who is a good red zone target and can legitimately contribute in the passing game (especially if Chandler is not signed) then the Hawkeye Fiedorowicz would be a good choice in the third. Find a good young guard with lots of playing experience in FA (Jon Asamoah) and you have the makings of one of the best young O-lines in the NFL. Marrone is an O-line guy who likes big bad people so I think he would like that line.
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