Luxy312 Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 It's hard to NOT put an asterisk next to the Patriots in the record books. Their defense was ranked 1st, 2nd, and 6th in the years they won the Superbowl. The years that they were caught cheating and all evidence simply destroyed by the NFL before anyone could really look at anything. That said, only an idiot would argue that Tom Brady is just an average quarterback. In the 9 years that the new and much more comprehensive QBR has been tracked, Brady has lead the league 2 times. Aaron Rodgers won it 1 time. The other 5 were all Peyton Manning. Apart from the pure numbers game, Peyton Manning is calling his own plays on the field. All the chicken and egg theory in the world won't win you arguments in terms of good WR's making QB's good and vice a versa. Did Peyton benefit from having Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison all those years? Sure. Wes Welker, Randy Moss, Rob Gronkowski, and Aaron Hernandez were no slouches either. With all of the injuries, this was still a good year for Brady. The Patriots did spread the ball around a lot more than in the past. What did Eric Decker and Demaryius Thomas do before Manning? 32 and 44 receptions. 22 for Thomas the year before that with mostly Orton throwing to him. What did they do with Manning this year? 92 and 87 receptions. 3 other guys BESIDES them had 60+ receptions. Superbowls and wins are functions of teams with contributions from 55+ players and a host of coaching staff. I would none the less argue that while both of these guys will be HOF first ballet entrants, Manning is clearly the better signal caller.
FireChan Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 Montana is slightly above average. Marino sucks. Brady sucks. Manning is average. Jim Kelly is #1.
Jim in Anchorage Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 I've been a lifelong Bills fan. Grew up despising the Dolphins for their ten year win streak against us. Now that I'm older, I find I don't begrudge New England just because they've dominated us. Instead, I wish we could be more like them. In short I'm jealous of the success they've had. But I'm not mad at them, or Brady, and I can't understand anyone who says he sucks or doesn't deserve his success. Instead, I'm mad at our organization for not getting their act together for the past 20 years. With the Bills out I'm planning to enjoy the matchup, and hope it's an exciting one that goes down to the wire. Congratulations Patriots and Broncos, Brady and Manning - you've earned your right to battle it out for the AFC Championship. Give us a good show! Because many of the posters here are very bitter and angry about Bradys success. The jealousy and hate for him can make this forum unreadable at times.
Clippers of Nfl Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 Because many of the posters here are very bitter and angry about Bradys success. The jealousy and hate for him can make this forum unreadable at times. I recognize Bill as the best coach in nfl history. See I have no problem saying that. I think it's true. However, when it comes to Brady, I think he is just above average. With him here in buffalo we would have gone to 1 maybe 2 playoff games in the last 10 years. With Manning we would have gone 6 years out of 10. Manning is just that good! Im sorry that I dont think he's god like some bill's fans do???? It's hard to NOT put an asterisk next to the Patriots in the record books. Their defense was ranked 1st, 2nd, and 6th in the years they won the Superbowl. The years that they were caught cheating and all evidence simply destroyed by the NFL before anyone could really look at anything. That said, only an idiot would argue that Tom Brady is just an average quarterback. In the 9 years that the new and much more comprehensive QBR has been tracked, Brady has lead the league 2 times. Aaron Rodgers won it 1 time. The other 5 were all Peyton Manning. Apart from the pure numbers game, Peyton Manning is calling his own plays on the field. All the chicken and egg theory in the world won't win you arguments in terms of good WR's making QB's good and vice a versa. Did Peyton benefit from having Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison all those years? Sure. Wes Welker, Randy Moss, Rob Gronkowski, and Aaron Hernandez were no slouches either. With all of the injuries, this was still a good year for Brady. The Patriots did spread the ball around a lot more than in the past. What did Eric Decker and Demaryius Thomas do before Manning? 32 and 44 receptions. 22 for Thomas the year before that with mostly Orton throwing to him. What did they do with Manning this year? 92 and 87 receptions. 3 other guys BESIDES them had 60+ receptions. Superbowls and wins are functions of teams with contributions from 55+ players and a host of coaching staff. I would none the less argue that while both of these guys will be HOF first ballet entrants, Manning is clearly the better signal caller. +1 Cherry picking stats can lead one to many ignorant evaluations. Brady is a HOF QB. Easily. He is arguably top 5 of all time. To you he is slightly above average. Maybe your perceptions have been dulled by hatred or perhaps you once happened upon the cable guy. What did he do this weekend? Handoff all day and throw a bunch of cross paterns?? Yeah he's really great. Barf. How about the play where he ducked and fell to the ground before being touched. Omg. That was funny. Did anyone see this? Please say yes somebody.
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) I recognize Bill as the best coach in nfl history. See I have no problem saying that. I think it's true. However, when it comes to Brady, I think he is just above average. With him here in buffalo we would have gone to 1 maybe 2 playoff games in the last 10 years. With Manning we would have gone 6 years out of 10. Manning is just that good! Im sorry that I dont think he's god like some bill's fans do???? +1 What did he do this weekend? Handoff all day and throw a bunch of cross paterns?? Yeah he's really great. Barf. How about the play where he ducked and fell to the ground before being touched. Omg. That was funny. Did anyone see this? Please say yes somebody. Do you realize Belichick's record pre-Brady WAS WORSE THAN DICK JAURON'S??? Brady has become a stuck up whiner over the years. People use that season where Cassell started as a knock against him. Cassell made a pro bowl and took the Chiefs to the playoffs. Also, it was a 5 win drop off from the previous years. Here's a list of 1st round picked skill players Manning played with in Indy (Gonzalez, Addai, Edge, Harrison. Wayne, Brown, Clark). Here's a list of 1st round picked skill players Brady played with (Maroney). I also heard a stat that Manning has played indoors something like 120 times while Brady has played inside like 20. I'm a giant homer. I hate the bandwagon fans that make up more than half of the NE fanbase. But Brady is one of the greatest to ever play the game. P.S. The Bills have gone 6-10/ 7-9 with Fitz, Edwards, and Losman. IF you simply flipped QBs, we'd be an annual playoff team. It's really that simple. Edited January 14, 2014 by C.Biscuit97
YoloinOhio Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 Because many of the posters here are very bitter and angry about Bradys success. The jealousy and hate for him can make this forum unreadable at times. This makes the forum unreadable? It's football. Fans of the Bills are able to talk about these things on a Bills message board. They aren't talking about their family members, friends, or workplace. It's just football. They don't hatehim as a person. They hate him as a division rival. It is normal. The hate of our own players is what I think can make the board "unreadable" at times... but I'll still read.
filthymcnasty08 Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 Anyone that quotes stats from the Pat's Superbowl years and holds them up to other stats from legitimate non-cheaters to make the argument that Brady/BB/The Pats were better is football-ignorant.
Kemp Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 I recognize Bill as the best coach in nfl history. See I have no problem saying that. I think it's true. However, when it comes to Brady, I think he is just above average. With him here in buffalo we would have gone to 1 maybe 2 playoff games in the last 10 years. With Manning we would have gone 6 years out of 10. Manning is just that good! Im sorry that I dont think he's god like some bill's fans do???? +1 What did he do this weekend? Handoff all day and throw a bunch of cross paterns?? Yeah he's really great. Barf. How about the play where he ducked and fell to the ground before being touched. Omg. That was funny. Did anyone see this? Please say yes somebody. You really don't get it. You continue to cherry-pick moments in time to prove something so slanted as to be absurd. Brady has near zero mobility, is old and continues to win. He is an incredibly accurate passer and great decision maker. Statistically he is an all time great. It is tough to respect an opinion of someone who truly believes Brady is a bit better than average. If he had been a Bill all these years you would revere him. Your hatred of the Pats has fogged your brain.
Jim in Anchorage Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 ** / This makes the forum unreadable? It's football. Fans of the Bills are able to talk about these things on a Bills message board. They aren't talking about their family members, friends, or workplace. It's just football. They don't hatehim as a person. They hate him as a division rival. It is normal. The hate of our own players is what I think can make the board "unreadable" at times... but I'll still read. If anyone can identify with disliking a team it's me. I suffered through the whole 70's thing with Miami. But never did I find a way to blame all the Bills problems on Don Shula or Bob Greise. Did I feel the ref's made calls Miamis way? damn right I did. But did I see a vast rigging of the NFL? No I saw ref's that where maybe a little afraid of Shula- not wanting "the jaw" in their face. Also I get tired of the endless 'cheating" remarks. They taped some defensive hand signals. Oh whoopee do. If that was a Pats invention, why is it that since I started watching the NFL in 1971, OC's and DC's always cover their lips when calling plays? .
YoloinOhio Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 ** If anyone can identify with disliking a team it's me. I suffered through the whole 70's thing with Miami. But never did I find a way to blame all the Bills problems on Don Shula or Bob Greise. Did I feel the ref's made calls Miamis way? damn right I did. But did I see a vast rigging of the NFL? No I saw ref's that where maybe a little afraid of Shula- not wanting "the jaw" in their face. Also I get tired of the endless 'cheating" remarks. They taped some defensive hand signals. Oh whoopee do. If that was a Pats invention, why is it that since I started watching the NFL in 1971, OC's and DC's always cover their lips when calling plays? . Yeah, I don't get into the cheating stuff much (although Bellicheat has a nice ring to it), I just like to dislike anything Pats* related. Or Jets related. Or Phins related. But mostly Pats* related.
May Day 10 Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 Cherry picking stats can lead one to many ignorant evaluations. Brady is a HOF QB. Easily. He is arguably top 5 of all time. To you he is slightly above average. Maybe your perceptions have been dulled by hatred or perhaps you once happened upon the cable guy. Its a lot easier to swallow when you recognize/admit this. It used to drive me crazy early in his career. Like the Rams Superbowl when he had like 140 passing yards and got most of the credit for the win. It looked like he was a good game-manager with a really good gameplan and a SUPER offensive line and opportunistic D and ST. Even when he started putting up numbers, it always seemed like the gameplan would call for a little 4 yard slant and the receiver would gain an extra 30 yards. Then there was the Randy Moss years, when they were the most dominant, but never won the Super Bowl. Statistics show that Brady padded his stats in blowouts like no other. That also P-ed me off. I also think he is the beneficiary of a very large amount of roughing the passer and PI calls. He has the nerve to complain when things dont go his way which grates the nerves. But he has been doing it in all conditions, with all sorts of supporting casts for almost a decade and a half. One injury that cost a season. A lot of it is Belichick and gameplan, but you also need a special QB to run with it and execute. I think that the Pats go downhill pretty steeply when Brady hangs them up. Top 5 of all time I agree with. I would rank Elway and Manning over him no doubt. He is in a category with Favre, Montana, Brady, Marino, Young, Unitas, Staubach, Bradshaw, and maybe Brees. I would say that modern era QBs are much better than the past. If Brady played in the 60s with his knowledge and training, etc, he would probably be considered the Babe Ruth of football. I think that translates right up through Young.
NickelCity Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 Live in Denver...cannot bring myself to pull for the Broncos...their fan base is just too dopey. Lived for years in Denver. I could not agree more. Honestly, what the hell is with Broncos fans?
MarkAF43 Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 Even i hate to admit it,but Brady is a top ten all time QB, in some opinions top 5. There is a ton of hatred because he's a patriot and he's a pretty boy etc, the fact is he knows how to win games and that's something that can't be taken away from him.
Rico Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 So more Super Bowl rings = better QB? Super Bowl rings and historical playoff performance matter the most to me, it's all about winning, And yes, I think Bradshaw and Aikman are criminally underrated, I would take either of them in their prime in a playoff game over Fouts, Moon, Marino, or P-Gump. I give P-Gump credit for getting a ring, but his overall playoff performance is severely lacking to me.
Webster Guy Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 Where do you see Peyton Manning having an Ego. The guy does nothing but spread around kudos and praise to his team and coaches and fans. He is respectful to the interviewers despite some ridiculously stupid questions. He even swallowed his pride when dickhead Irsay played out his usual BS antics the last few years The classiest guy in the NFL IMO. I never get sick of that. Would you rather see Rivers and Cutler whining away out there?
Rico Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 Where do you see Peyton Manning having an Ego. The guy does nothing but spread around kudos and praise to his team and coaches and fans. He is respectful to the interviewers despite some ridiculously stupid questions. He even swallowed his pride when dickhead Irsay played out his usual BS antics the last few years The classiest guy in the NFL IMO. I never get sick of that. Would you rather see Rivers and Cutler whining away out there? http://fifthdown.blo...e-revered/?_r=0
Clippers of Nfl Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 (edited) Do you realize Belichick's record pre-Brady WAS WORSE THAN DICK JAURON'S??? Brady has become a stuck up whiner over the years. People use that season where Cassell started as a knock against him. Cassell made a pro bowl and took the Chiefs to the playoffs. Also, it was a 5 win drop off from the previous years. Here's a list of 1st round picked skill players Manning played with in Indy (Gonzalez, Addai, Edge, Harrison. Wayne, Brown, Clark). Here's a list of 1st round picked skill players Brady played with (Maroney). I also heard a stat that Manning has played indoors something like 120 times while Brady has played inside like 20. I'm a giant homer. I hate the bandwagon fans that make up more than half of the NE fanbase. But Brady is one of the greatest to ever play the game. P.S. The Bills have gone 6-10/ 7-9 with Fitz, Edwards, and Losman. IF you simply flipped QBs, we'd be an annual playoff team. It's really that simple. How many times did he do that? What are you trying to say? Did you know that viking fans call him Sand Castle??? You are trying to say that Cassell is good???? He's not even average!!! So yes I WILL ALWAYS USE THE FACT THAT BRADY MISSED A SEASON = BELLYCHEAT STILL WENT 11-5. I agree we would be an annual playoff team. But with Manning, not Brady. It's really that simple. Manning has a very high football iq. He's been getting players offsides his whole career. He's a genius. The broncos were a running team before Peyton got there. They went from a run only team to a pass happy team. That's Manning. The list goes on and on. Anyone that quotes stats from the Pat's Superbowl years and holds them up to other stats from legitimate non-cheaters to make the argument that Brady/BB/The Pats were better is football-ignorant. Very well said. You have to mention the fact that their rings were obtained by cheating. This makes the forum unreadable? It's football. Fans of the Bills are able to talk about these things on a Bills message board. They aren't talking about their family members, friends, or workplace. It's just football. They don't hatehim as a person. They hate him as a division rival. It is normal. The hate of our own players is what I think can make the board "unreadable" at times... but I'll still read. How do you know that? Just kidding. I "football" hate the guy. I didnt know I had to have the hots for him too?? Do I? I dont know. What do you think Kemp? Actually being a bills fan, I think I have the right to dislike/hate/talk smack about any non bills player. Wether it be rational or irrational. True or false. Im a bills fan. Ps. I think Brady is slightly above average. So freaking what!! You know what's funny. I'm on a bills board. I'm getting bashed for not praising Brady. Alanis Morisette please sing your song now. Edited January 15, 2014 by Clippers of Nfl
BuffaloFan68 Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 I consider Manning vs Brady the modern version of Kelly vs Msrino. I'm routing for Peyton of course.
Bronc24 Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 (edited) How many times did he do that? What are you trying to say? Did you know that viking fans call him Sand Castle??? You are trying to say that Cassell is good???? He's not even average!!! So yes I WILL ALWAYS USE THE FACT THAT BRADY MISSED A SEASON = BELLYCHEAT STILL WENT 11-5. I agree we would be an annual playoff team. But with Manning, not Brady. It's really that simple. Manning has a very high football iq. He's been getting players offsides his whole career. He's a genius. The broncos were a running team before Peyton got there. They went from a run only team to a pass happy team. That's Manning. The list goes on and on. Very well said. You have to mention the fact that their rings were obtained by cheating. How do you know that? Just kidding. I "football" hate the guy. I didnt know I had to have the hots for him too?? Do I? I dont know. What do you think Kemp? Actually being a bills fan, I think I have the right to dislike/hate/talk smack about any non bills player. Wether it be rational or irrational. True or false. Im a bills fan. Ps. I think Brady is slightly above average. So freaking what!! You know what's funny. I'm on a bills board. I'm getting bashed for not praising Brady. Alanis Morisette please sing your song now. What you think about Brady is your business. However, stating he is "slightly above average" flies in the face of what every unbiased football fan and journalist thinks about the guy. As such, logic would suggest that if you're whiffing on this one so badly, anything else you profess is mere fodder from an uneducated source. Edited January 15, 2014 by Bronc24
MattM Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 ** If anyone can identify with disliking a team it's me. I suffered through the whole 70's thing with Miami. But never did I find a way to blame all the Bills problems on Don Shula or Bob Greise. Did I feel the ref's made calls Miamis way? damn right I did. But did I see a vast rigging of the NFL? No I saw ref's that where maybe a little afraid of Shula- not wanting "the jaw" in their face. Also I get tired of the endless 'cheating" remarks. They taped some defensive hand signals. Oh whoopee do. If that was a Pats invention, why is it that since I started watching the NFL in 1971, OC's and DC's always cover their lips when calling plays? . Folks forget that they were accused of more than Spygate--including things like headsets going out at odd times at Gillette (Del Rio and Marinelli both made that claim independently), miking players up on the field, etc. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/11/sports/football/11nfl.html?_r=0 As per this article, they were the main team brought up to the NFL Competition Committee over and over and over again. Put that together with what we know about Spygate and the officiating in their games it's no surprise that people have suspicions about them. That said, both Brady and Manning are first ballot HOFers, so I'm not really sure what the argument here is about.
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