The "Shock" and "Scandal"

[ColdBlueNorth]

Just amazed that the recent "news" that a good percentage of college athletes cannot read or write at a college level is actually "news". I thought everyone knew this.

 

Frankly, having attended youth combines, USA Youth Football and NUC events for aspiring high school athletes you run into your fair share of der-t-der kids that you would expect would only have options in JUCO, but plenty of universities will stand in line just to get that rare athletic ability - educational acumen be damned.

 

It is not just the Southern kids coming out of the states that rank low on standardized tests, there is plenty of dumb to go around and at least most of the Southern kids say "sir" and "mam" especially those from military families. I hear that so rarely these days from young adults that it takes you by surprise at first - a pleasant surprise.

 

But the dark side to letting poor students slide because of their athletic ability is that it simply has to involve some level of deception and falsification of grades or tests. That creates a subculture that deception and cheating is not only permissible - it is the norm. And there are plenty of parents and coaches who feel it is their duty to protect this environment that lets those students slide. It is an environment and support structure that is inherently unhealthy.

 

If it was only about helping kids afford college when they could not otherwise do so, that would be understandable to a degree. However, when it is more about bypassing and cheating the system to fast-track kids with exceptional athletic ability one has to ask, what happens when most of these kids wash out, as most will, or when they get injured, what is their "plan-B"?

 

Now it seems, the lady who "exposed" the elephant in the room is receiving death threats. The system is clearly broken and there is so much money on the line for the NCAA and Universities that it will likely just be hidden a lot better rather than addressed, and there are plenty of folks that would make those kinds of threats to protect the status quo.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/09/us/ncaa-athletes-unc-response/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

[CodeMonkey]

II have always been of the opinion that having football, or any major sports program, tied to a university made no sense. A lot of future pro football players for example would not have the intelligence to pull their weight academically at a school like Ohio State, USC, Harvard, etc. The may have the grades required to get into these schools, but they could be based on special treatment at the high school level as well.

 

I would like to see sports divorced from colleges and have the teams part of a junior system like they have for hockey in Canada or soccer in a lot of European countries. Why pretend that some of these athletes are more than what they are. They are fooling no one.

[Mr. WEO]

II have always been of the opinion that having football, or any major sports program, tied to a university made no sense. A lot of future pro football players for example would not have the intelligence to pull their weight academically at a school like Ohio State, USC, Harvard, etc. The may have the grades required to get into these schools, but they could be based on special treatment at the high school level as well.

 

I would like to see sports divorced from colleges and have the teams part of a junior system like they have for hockey in Canada or soccer in a lot of European countries. Why pretend that some of these athletes are more than what they are. They are fooling no one.

 

Who would watch? And why would they watch semi-pro football? Where would they play?

 

50% of recent college grads are unemployed or underemployed. The whole college industry is a rotten scam, so let them pretend with the "student athletes" like they do the rest of the student body.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Mr. WEO

[A Dog Named Kelso]

I think it is a lot more far reaching than just sports. I have conversations with younger people who cannot do basic arithmetic or put together a simple articulate thought without stuttering or adding "Um", "Man" or "like" several times. Forget the college level, while the problem is brought to light because of higher profile for athletes of these schools, it is most likely starting quite a bit sooner.

[plenzmd1]

Couple of things.

 

The number cited was 8-10% of REVENUE PRODUCING SPORTS, not all athletes. Second, colleges today look for well rounded classes, not necessarily well rounded students. They want kids who bring a particular passion or strength to the school, these kids just happen to be strength in a skill that brings a chit ton of money into a school and fund the rest of the athletic programs...as someone who went to school on a swimming scholarship, and has a daughter who swims...I am not to worried about 8 kids on a football team who may not meet the regular standards of the school.

 

As important, these kids are getting a chance....if you are reading at third grade level my gut tells me you did not have parents that were involved and prolly in some tough conditions economically....

 

What harm is really done here?

 

 

 

Who would watch? And why would they watch semi-pro football? Where would they play?

 

50% of recent college grads are unemployed or underemployed. The whole college industry is a rotten scam, so let them pretend with the "student athletes" like they do the rest of the student body.

 

BTW, I ain't buying this 50% figure. My job has me working with HR and Talent Acquistion heads in Fortune 500 companies.....they spend a good bit of their recruiting budget at the college level. Problem is kids , and their parents, think taking a job a 50k out of college is not a good ROI after all the years and expense of college....plenty of jobs out there for college kids, few takers

[Mr. WEO]

Couple of things.

 

The number cited was 8-10% of REVENUE PRODUCING SPORTS, not all athletes. Second, colleges today look for well rounded classes, not necessarily well rounded students. They want kids who bring a particular passion or strength to the school, these kids just happen to be strength in a skill that brings a chit ton of money into a school and fund the rest of the athletic programs...as someone who went to school on a swimming scholarship, and has a daughter who swims...I am not to worried about 8 kids on a football team who may not meet the regular standards of the school.

 

As important, these kids are getting a chance....if you are reading at third grade level my gut tells me you did not have parents that were involved and prolly in some tough conditions economically....

 

What harm is really done here?

 

 

 

BTW, I ain't buying this 50% figure. My job has me working with HR and Talent Acquistion heads in Fortune 500 companies.....they spend a good bit of their recruiting budget at the college level. Problem is kids , and their parents, think taking a job a 50k out of college is not a good ROI after all the years and expense of college....plenty of jobs out there for college kids, few takers

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/04/53-of-recent-college-grads-are-jobless-or-underemployed-how/256237/

 

The reason they are umemployed (and the reason you can't hire them) is not necessarily for lack of jobs, but for their lack of skills for your jobs.

[zonabb]

Lots of incorrect/misleading/unsubstantiated claims here but two need to be checked a bit.

 

To this comment that only 8%-10% of revenue producing athletes.... that's the percentage READING BELOW A THIRD GRADE LEVEL... not those simply not qualified to be in school. So the total percentage of these studnets who can't read at a college level has to be much great. And if "you're fine with that" is it also OK when its a state school using taxpayer dollars to subsidize an athlete who in many cases never be a professional and give you zero return on your "investment" and takes potential scholarship money away from academically-deserving student... after all is it an institute of higher education. I was a TA at an D1 school and had starters from the football team in classes who could barely write, and frankly, am annoyed/embarrassed/disgusted that these students got pushed through the sytsem and have a degree from the same academically-respected university as my doctorate.

 

College is a "rotten scam" sounds like bitterness. College is what you put into it. If you are 18 and think you're playing with fake money and college is a party, you're likely to take some time in the real world realizing you wasted your money and those who didn't are taking your jobs. It's about competition, something students and the workforce have forgotten. Might be rotten if the economy is struggling but cream rises to the top. What's really rotten is the K-12 system that forces kids into academic programs when they should be forced into trades. Not everyone, sorry is ready for college and in some cases won't ever be ready. But they can learn something viable in the marketplace. No one wants to work value collar jobs anymore but there are jobs in manufacturing, machining, etc. that can't be filled not just because these kids don't have skills but because they are taught the wrong skills. We live in a country where everyone gets a trophy. No parent is willing to admit, maybe, just maybe, their kid isn't college material and might be better served getting trained as a surveyor at a community college (afterall, CCs are intended to take those not interested in 4 year academic programs and get them job skills, sadly they're considered the place where dumb kids go) or some training in BOCES. Or hell, skip college altogether and start working a trade and work your way up.

 

I don't everyone is prepared for college and I don't think everyone should go. But just as we don't blame Apple because people on social services have iphones, don't blame colleges and universities for the failures of parents, the students, and the K-12 system to guide and prepare students properly. No one is forced to go to college. You choose to go to better your life and earnings. If you didn't figure out that being an average student on college wasn't going to prepare you for the job market, that's your fault.

[reddogblitz]

I thought after we found out that Dexter Manley couldn't read we fixed this problem up.

[ColdBlueNorth]

Couple of things.

 

The number cited was 8-10% of REVENUE PRODUCING SPORTS, not all athletes. Second, colleges today look for well rounded classes, not necessarily well rounded students. They want kids who bring a particular passion or strength to the school, these kids just happen to be strength in a skill that brings a chit ton of money into a school and fund the rest of the athletic programs...as someone who went to school on a swimming scholarship, and has a daughter who swims...I am not to worried about 8 kids on a football team who may not meet the regular standards of the school.

 

As important, these kids are getting a chance....if you are reading at third grade level my gut tells me you did not have parents that were involved and prolly in some tough conditions economically....

 

What harm is really done here?

 

 

 

BTW, I ain't buying this 50% figure. My job has me working with HR and Talent Acquistion heads in Fortune 500 companies.....they spend a good bit of their recruiting budget at the college level. Problem is kids , and their parents, think taking a job a 50k out of college is not a good ROI after all the years and expense of college....plenty of jobs out there for college kids, few takers

 

Lets be accurate here. The study showing 8-10% of college athletes reading below a third grade level, and that 60% were reading between a 4th and 8th grade level. It was for football and basketball specifically and at UNC specifically, but I read that studies done for the University of Kentucky were even more alarming. But you are right regarding the sports and that those are the Big 2 in regards to revenue generation.

 

I am sure that much of the controversy comes into play because African Americans make up a larger percentage of players in football and basketball programs, but I do not think that race was cited in this study at all. She did cite in her whistle-blowing the following:

"No-show classes, that were heavily attended by athletes, were offered by the African-American Studies department. Called “paper classes,” they were supposed to be lecture courses, but the requirements were never met. Willingham said she learned of these when she was assisting an athlete with a paper she called a “cut-and-paste job.” The student had received a grade of B or better."

 

I know plenty of young black athletes who keep their grades up, and I think they should have a leg up getting full or partial scholarships over someone who doesn't have the grades, but runs a better 40.

 

 

It is almost humorous the way the big programs are scurrying from the light like cockroaches. Click on a few of them to see the responses.

http://www.cnn.com/i...ores/index.html

 

The harm is that there are kids getting a free ride at major universities that receive plenty of federal dollars, our dollars that should be going to pay for athletes who can both compete on the court and field while also meeting minimum university academic qualification for entry standards. The harm is when educators who are passionate about both sports and academics bring the issue to light they are dismissed. And, it is just plain wrong to reward that behavior, and it is a by-product of the profiteering cancer that has pervaded our higher education institutions.

 

I think the NCAA should have more stringent educational standards and quality controls, and I believe they and the universities should share revenue with the athletes they are profiting from. That should be incentive enough to have athletes working for scholarships or getting onto a university starting roster to keep in school and keep their grades up.

Edited January 10, 2014 by ColdBlueNorth

[Prickly Pete]

Why not have "trade schools" connected to universities?

 

The OP made a great point about it setting up an unhealthy environment of deception. Many people involved, many blind eyes turned away.

 

It's a sham.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Marauder'sMicro

[Gray Beard]

I've always suspected that the vast majority of athletes who make it into professional sports are actually somewhat intelligent. I'm not saying that they graduated from college, or could graduate from college, but they have to be smart enough to perform with a variety of coaches and systems, they have to understand instructions, they have to go places with little supervision, and in general they have to have a little common sense. Not all pros demonstrate these characteristics, but a majority of them do.

What scares me is the kids who THINK they are good enough to go pro, and they really aren't good enough due to either mental or physical shortcomings that are not severe enough to prevent them from excelling in high school or college, but they just don't have what it takes to go pro. Those kids will soon become unemployed and bad things await.

My son was a good football player in high school and he played a little in college. He realized that he could not get a worthwhile college degree in a reasonable number of years while also playing football. He also tore his ACL and had to have surgery. He ended up graduating with a nursing degree, passed his RN exam, and is now making a decent living at a local hospital. He has friends who stayed with football and basketball in small schools and graduated with pretty worthless degrees. One is working for the town as a laborer (he had family connections) and the other is working at a grocery store and hopes to someday become a butcher. These were not the lives that these boys envisioned when they went off to college, but with luck they will turn out ok and be able to be self sufficient in a few years.

[Mr. WEO]

Lots of incorrect/misleading/unsubstantiated claims here but two need to be checked a bit.

 

To this comment that only 8%-10% of revenue producing athletes.... that's the percentage READING BELOW A THIRD GRADE LEVEL... not those simply not qualified to be in school. So the total percentage of these studnets who can't read at a college level has to be much great. And if "you're fine with that" is it also OK when its a state school using taxpayer dollars to subsidize an athlete who in many cases never be a professional and give you zero return on your "investment" and takes potential scholarship money away from academically-deserving student... after all is it an institute of higher education. I was a TA at an D1 school and had starters from the football team in classes who could barely write, and frankly, am annoyed/embarrassed/disgusted that these students got pushed through the sytsem and have a degree from the same academically-respected university as my doctorate.

 

College is a "rotten scam" sounds like bitterness. College is what you put into it. If you are 18 and think you're playing with fake money and college is a party, you're likely to take some time in the real world realizing you wasted your money and those who didn't are taking your jobs. It's about competition, something students and the workforce have forgotten. Might be rotten if the economy is struggling but cream rises to the top. What's really rotten is the K-12 system that forces kids into academic programs when they should be forced into trades. Not everyone, sorry is ready for college and in some cases won't ever be ready. But they can learn something viable in the marketplace. No one wants to work value collar jobs anymore but there are jobs in manufacturing, machining, etc. that can't be filled not just because these kids don't have skills but because they are taught the wrong skills. We live in a country where everyone gets a trophy. No parent is willing to admit, maybe, just maybe, their kid isn't college material and might be better served getting trained as a surveyor at a community college (afterall, CCs are intended to take those not interested in 4 year academic programs and get them job skills, sadly they're considered the place where dumb kids go) or some training in BOCES. Or hell, skip college altogether and start working a trade and work your way up.

 

I don't everyone is prepared for college and I don't think everyone should go. But just as we don't blame Apple because people on social services have iphones, don't blame colleges and universities for the failures of parents, the students, and the K-12 system to guide and prepare students properly. No one is forced to go to college. You choose to go to better your life and earnings. If you didn't figure out that being an average student on college wasn't going to prepare you for the job market, that's your fault.

 

Bitterness? I don't know why or how you're using that term in this context.

 

It is a scam. There is intense societal pressure to go to college "In order to succeed". Colleges take advantage of that. They are priced high enough that almost all students take some amount of loans (which are readily available through the federal govenrment) to afford the costs. Thus there is no incentive fro colleges ever to cut costs (and tuition). Also, there is no onus on the college to necessarily provide for a meaningful and useful education that will prepare a grad for meaningful employment.

 

Sure college "is what you put into it" and many kids are wasting their time--but the colleges don't care at all about any of that--and why should they? They last thing they want is a decrease in enrollment.

 

So demand for college education is always high--depite its dubious value for the majority of its consumers. The government provides the financial means for most of these kids to waste 4 years and this subsidy props up the colleges' outrageous prices. These schools know they are providing a worthless diploma for a huge number of kids who don't belong there.

 

That's a scam.

[Uncle Joe]

Bitterness? I don't know why or how you're using that term in this context.

 

It is a scam. There is intense societal pressure to go to college "In order to succeed". Colleges take advantage of that. They are priced high enough that almost all students take some amount of loans (which are readily available through the federal govenrment) to afford the costs. Thus there is no incentive fro colleges ever to cut costs (and tuition). Also, there is no onus on the college to necessarily provide for a meaningful and useful education that will prepare a grad for meaningful employment.

 

Sure college "is what you put into it" and many kids are wasting their time--but the colleges don't care at all about any of that--and why should they? They last thing they want is a decrease in enrollment.

 

So demand for college education is always high--depite its dubious value for the majority of its consumers. The government provides the financial means for most of these kids to waste 4 years and this subsidy props up the colleges' outrageous prices. These schools know they are providing a worthless diploma for a huge number of kids who don't belong there.

 

That's a scam.

 

I worked previously in adminstrative support at a college. I also graduated from college as a non revenue producing student athlete. IMO, colleges are businesses and seek to stay in business with their enrollment numbers.

However, some business models (and end product) are better than others,

Edited January 10, 2014 by Uncle Joe

[Direhard Fan]

It's a shame. Did you listen to the inteview after the FL. State game? These people live among us and go on to birth more.. A real shame. Colleges should be ashamed.

[ColdBlueNorth]

It's a shame. Did you listen to the inteview after the FL. State game? These people live among us and go on to birth more.. A real shame. Colleges should be ashamed.

 

Was just looking through the OSU standardized reading and math scores for their football program that they gave to CNN... one individual even scored a grade equivalency of <1st. Less than 1st grade level competency. How can that person be a student at a university?

 

For some reason the Tommy Boy movie comes to mind, but at least his character could spell "Herbie Hancock".

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UOsQ2epsI2M

[The Wiz]

So demand for college education is always high--depite its dubious value for the majority of its consumers. The government provides the financial means for most of these kids to waste 4 years and this subsidy props up the colleges' outrageous prices. These schools know they are providing a worthless diploma for a huge number of kids who don't belong there.

 

That's a scam.

That part holds true for athletes and non-athletes alike. A BS is equivalent to a HS diploma nowadays.

[Mr. WEO]

That part holds true for athletes and non-athletes alike. A BS is equivalent to a HS diploma nowadays.

 

Yes, I made that point in my first response. That's why I really don't care that the football players can't read. The value of their degree is as low as that of the other students'.

 

The same government push for "anyone to be a homeowner" that created the housing bubble and high risk loan disaster is doing the same in higher education with "everyone should go to college". Now the only provider of government loans for college is the government itself--they are in the direct student loan business. Students take on debt that their crappy education can't provide an adequate income to pay back.

 

The good news is that if a student can't afford to pay his monthly loan nut, he can just pay what he can afford for 10 years and then...stop paying, and the taxpayer will eat the balance!

 

Total racket.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Mr. WEO

[BuffaloBill]

 

 

BTW, I ain't buying this 50% figure. My job has me working with HR and Talent Acquistion heads in Fortune 500 companies.....they spend a good bit of their recruiting budget at the college level. Problem is kids , and their parents, think taking a job a 50k out of college is not a good ROI after all the years and expense of college....plenty of jobs out there for college kids, few takers

 

The problem is multi-faceted and I would agree that there are some jobs out there for students. Where the system has primary breakdowns is twofold. One, the pay-to-play schools churning out degreed students often with fluffy degrees. The second is related but either the students or the direction they receive from parents aren't getting degrees in the fields that are most likely to get them employed in good jobs. I am a firm believer in a well rounded education but students with math or science centric degrees are highly employable. If anything, there is a severe shortage of individuals with these degrees.

 

For those of you who are parents if you want your kids to get a good job coming out of school encourage them to take this path. Not saying that other fields of study are not employable but there is stiffer competition for jobs.i would also add that they do not need to go to an ivy but they should look to attend a highly reputable institution. Finally, internships are gold and I would encourage any kid to pursue them vigorously.

 

[boyst]

Anyone who wants to know the state of intellect in a college athlete need just watch Jameis Winston in the post BCS game interview. The guy sounds like a note it who speaks English as a 3rd language. There are tremendous examples of this and I thought about posting it but was called a racist in the shoutbox for saying Winston is an idiot. That Howard Stern of all people weighed in on it, Winston's post game interview, was a big point: these athletes are not receiving an education and do not deserve to call themselves college educated.

[....lybob]

Anyone who wants to know the state of intellect in a college athlete need just watch Jameis Winston in the post BCS game interview. The guy sounds like a note it who speaks English as a 3rd language. There are tremendous examples of this and I thought about posting it but was called a racist in the shoutbox for saying Winston is an idiot. That Howard Stern of all people weighed in on it, Winston's post game interview, was a big point: these athletes are not receiving an education and do not deserve to call themselves college educated.

what's a" note it" and how do they sound