Miyagi-Do Karate Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Lets approach this idea from a new angle. Last play defense is pretty much going to involve dropping as many people back into coverage as possible, essentially stacking the end zone to defend the hail mary. If the play turns out to be a shorter pass, then the defense moves up not unlike a kickoff. If the defenders stay in their lanes and take the right angles, the speed of the ball carrier becomes pretty much irrelevant. Which is why on kick returns you have blocking. You need to open holes. It would be interesting to see the smurf package in action but I think the limiting factor is lanes to run through rather than shifty ball carriers. I disagree with this. This isn't a kick return; it's a series of laterals. The hope is that people get so discombobulated and out of position that you can get an opening. I think what you need are a bunch of guys who can move and can handle the ball. Maybe it's your "hands team." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) I would like to know why the last guy who gets tackled isn't usually more eager to pitch it back again. It seems like it works for about 20 yards, then that last guy just gets tackled! Maybe it's because of how strongly coaches drill ball security into their players' heads. Turnovers are the best predictors of W/L outcome, so in just about every other situation, you don't want guys taking chances by tossing it around. But in this specific situation, a turnover is obviously no worse than simply being tackled. Sometimes there's just nobody behind them to receive the pitch. BTW, I titled this thread "Question #1" because I've got another wrinkle, but it depends on a rule i'm not sure about. Edited January 8, 2014 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I disagree with this. This isn't a kick return; it's a series of laterals. The hope is that people get so discombobulated and out of position that you can get an opening. I think what you need are a bunch of guys who can move and can handle the ball. Maybe it's your "hands team." I understand the concept. Ostensibly, it is no different than a kick return since you're attempting run the ball past all 11 defenders, but rather than open holes with a blocking scheme you have a lateral scheme. One of the major differences between the hail mary defense and kick coverage is that the defense is less likely to commit mistakes due to over aggressiveness. They're not trying to stick you at the 10 yard line, they only need to keep you out of the endzone. The element of surprise, which was mentioned earlier, is gone when you trot out your smurf hands package too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 I understand the concept. Ostensibly, it is no different than a kick return since you're attempting run the ball past all 11 defenders, but rather than open holes with a blocking scheme you have a lateral scheme. One of the major differences between the hail mary defense and kick coverage is that the defense is less likely to commit mistakes due to over aggressiveness. They're not trying to stick you at the 10 yard line, they only need to keep you out of the endzone. The element of surprise, which was mentioned earlier, is gone when you trot out your smurf hands package too. Fair points, but it's not exactly like kick coverage because while you've got a lot of guys back deep near the end zone, presumably you've also got one or more pass rushers who are doing something different than anybody on the kick-off coverage team does. Tell me how many pass rushers you usually see on defense for this type of play, and I'll take a shot at creating a personnel package/play to increase the odds of beating it (as compared to the standard 5 big OL package we usually see). Assume offense has the ball at its own 30 yard line. Deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I understand the concept. Ostensibly, it is no different than a kick return since you're attempting run the ball past all 11 defenders, but rather than open holes with a blocking scheme you have a lateral scheme. One of the major differences between the hail mary defense and kick coverage is that the defense is less likely to commit mistakes due to over aggressiveness. They're not trying to stick you at the 10 yard line, they only need to keep you out of the endzone. The element of surprise, which was mentioned earlier, is gone when you trot out your smurf hands package too. Here's another way of looking at it. In my view, the no. 1 reason that these very high-risk lateral plays do not work is because the ball is not handled properly. How many times do we see dropped laterals, or fumbles, or the balls end up in the hands of a lineman? Assuming that is the biggest reason (among many) that the lateral plays don't work, isn't putting your hands team on the field the best alternative to improve your chances of success? I can't think of any better alternatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Fair points, but it's not exactly like kick coverage because while you've got a lot of guys back deep near the end zone, presumably you've also got one or more pass rushers who are doing something different than anybody on the kick-off coverage team does. Tell me how many pass rushers you usually see on defense for this type of play, and I'll take a shot at creating a personnel package/play to increase the odds of beating it (as compared to the standard 5 big OL package we usually see). Assume offense has the ball at its own 30 yard line. Deal? 3 pass rushers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 3 pass rushers. So I'm looking at 3 D linemen with instructions to get after the passer, and 8 guys hanging back very deep in pass coverage with instructions to let the other team do whatever crazy s**t they want - - just don't be overaggressive and keep the ball out of the end zone? In real life, I can watch film of your team and see what personnel usually take the field and what they do in this situation. And because the crazy lateral play almost never works, I'm likely to get the type of D you've used in the past, with no surprises. Not guaranteed, of course, but likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 So I'm looking at 3 D linemen with instructions to get after the passer, and 8 guys hanging back very deep in pass coverage with instructions to let the other team do whatever crazy s**t they want - - just don't be overaggressive and keep the ball out of the end zone? In real life, I can watch film of your team and see what personnel usually take the field and what they do in this situation. And because the crazy lateral play almost never works, I'm likely to get the type of D you've used in the past, with no surprises. Not guaranteed, of course, but likely. Yes, you're going to see the same D. How is that an advantage? You already know what defense looks like. See every hail mary attempt ever. In what way is your smurf package advantageous against this look seeing as only one smurf can hold the ball at a time and also your 5 smurf lineman need to be able to effectively snap the ball and since they're pass blocking they can't move upfield until the pass is thrown? You gain maybe 2 eligible ball carriers over running your normal 5 OL, assuming 3 DL neutralize 3 smurfs? You're going to keep the center involved for the snap. Still have the QB trailing the play. So you have 7 smurfs at best rather than 5 smurfs in the traditional set, as long as your smurf ball carrier waits for his smurf linemen to catch up. And then everybody runs around all batshit crazy. Where is the schematic advantage over running a basic screen pass and getting your smurfs behind the big uglies or throwing the hail mary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 Yes, you're going to see the same D. How is that an advantage? You already know what defense looks like. See every hail mary attempt ever. In what way is your smurf package advantageous against this look seeing as only one smurf can hold the ball at a time and also your 5 smurf lineman need to be able to effectively snap the ball and since they're pass blocking they can't move upfield until the pass is thrown? You gain maybe 2 eligible ball carriers over running your normal 5 OL, assuming 3 DL neutralize 3 smurfs? You're going to keep the center involved for the snap. Still have the QB trailing the play. So you have 7 smurfs at best rather than 5 smurfs in the traditional set, as long as your smurf ball carrier waits for his smurf linemen to catch up. And then everybody runs around all batshit crazy. Where is the schematic advantage over running a basic screen pass and getting your smurfs behind the big uglies or throwing the hail mary? Whoa there big fella - - I haven't told you either the personnel package or the play yet - - I've only just finished watching game film so that I know what I'm scheming against. Somehow, "Jauronimo" seems apt I'll give you a personnel package and an outrageous play call to criticize - - I promise. You and Jerry Sullivan will get plenty of opportunity to criticize my idiotic play call in Monday morning's paper - - but even Hackett gets to run it first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallskiWallski83 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 You've all seen the play I'm talking about - - last play of the game, down by anywhere from 4-8 points, too far away for a Hail Mary pass into the end zone. My question: Can you replace the usual 5 offensive linemen for this play with some combination of backup RBs, your backup QB, and maybe a CB/return man or two at the line of scrimmage? You're not really gonna rely on any kind of blocking scheme anyway, and just hope that the totally random, wild nature of the ball movement gets the defenders out of position. And the defense rarely rushes very many guys at the QB, anyway. So why not get a larger number of effective runners/ball handlers on the field, and maybe even a second thrower that the defense might not expect? Is there some rule that would prevent this kind of personnel package for the play? Ive always wondered why coaches never thought to do something like this. Another one that I thought of was when you decide to punt. In todays NFL the only strategy a team has on a 4th down is to try and draw an offsides penalty with a hard snap count. Why not come up a couple of plays where you have your punter running towards the line of scrimmage on the snap of the ball with the option to either A. Run for it B. THrow it to a WR C. Pooch punt it. If guys can kick it on the run in rugby then certainly it can be done in the NFL. Imagine having to defend a 4th and 5 just as intensely as you would any other down...it would give the team that did it a huge advantage on Sundays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBud Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Let's take your idea to another level. Why not spread your offensive lineman, who are "reported" eligible personnel, out between each other by 3-5 yards so that you use the entire field? That way you've spread the D out even further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonborn10 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Would Crossman be in charge of this? Crossman is the OP. He is asking because he doesn't know the rules. Didn't you read the other 23 page thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted January 9, 2014 Author Share Posted January 9, 2014 3 pass rushers. OK, I've had some time to think about it. Here's how I see it if I'm Hackett/Crossman: A. I'm in a fairly unique position from a play calling perspective. Normally, I avoid anything that increases the chance of a turnover or a big yardage loss, because the after-effects of those things hurt my team. Here, I don't need to worry about after-effects, because it makes no difference if the play ends with a big yardage loss, a turnover or even a safety. End result is the same as a 69 yard gain - - game ends and my team loses. B. This is actually pretty liberating. I can do absolutely bat s***t crazy stuff with no real downside, 'cause nobody expects me to pull this one out of the fire. Anything that improves my odds of scoring a 1 play TD is a better call than the usual immediate short pass and crazy laterals, even if the odds of a big yardage loss, turnover or even a safety go up by even more. C. Given the defensive personnel and how I expect they've been instructed to play, I like a variation of No Saint's idea upthread. Here's my personnel package. The Bills must already have some form of kick-off return package with 2 deep return men. I use that, but modify it as follows - - if not already in those positions, I insert Spiller and McKelvin as the "2 deep" guys. Then I replace my biggest, slowest, worst-handed blocker with EJ Manuel. This says nothing about where I line 'em up - - just which 11 I'm gonna use. D. OK, now it's game day, and I'm on my own 30, down by 4-8 points, with time for 1 more play. Here's the plan: 1. I call time-out, mainly so I can talk to the referee. I want to give him a heads-up on what's about to happen, 'cause some of it's unusual. Let's assume the tunnel to the Bills' locker room is behind my offense. While I'm talking' to the ref, I have McKelvin fake a limp, take his helmet off, and slowly start walking with trainer assistance down my sideline toward the tunnel. Spiller, McKelvin and Manuel won't be on the interior line when the ball is snapped, and have appropriate jersey numbers, so none of them have to "report" to the referee before the play starts. The rules let me line up my other 8 guys any way I want - - they just may have to report to the referee as eligible or ineligible depending on their jersey number. I let the referee know in advance which guys are gonna report and how, and also tell him to watch for any lateral deep in my own end that absolutely will not be a forward pass - - I don't want them screwin' up that call. 2. As late as possible during the time-out, I have whichever guys need to report do so, and I have 9 (not 10) of them take the field. I intentionally hold one guy back, and McKelvin is still on the sideline, limping with help near my end zone and presumably then the tunnel. 3. Manuel lines up in the shotgun, with Spiller in the backfield but towards the far sideline. Of the remaining 7 guys already on the field, the 3 with the worst hands line up in WR spots. They're gonna be downfield decoys. The other 4 guys on the field take interior line spots. McKelvin is obviously hurt, 'cause he stops walking when he gets near the end zone sideline. 4. Now the fun starts. The intentionally held back guy is standing near me. I grab him by the collar, start screaming in his face, and forcefully yank him onto the field. As he runs to take the 5th interior line spot, I throw my headset, clipboard, whatever to the ground - - things are obviously FUBAR in Bills' land. But as I'm doing this to draw attention to me, McKelvin slips on his helmet, and crawls (yes, crawls) to just inside the numbers at the 1 yard line and lays down (yes, lays down). Most of the defenders are a very long way away. I think the near sideline WR guy at the line of scrimmage might have to be lined up closer to the near sideline than McKelvin for the formation to be legal, but if so, that's easy. 5. I don't need a true center on the field - - I think I'm allowed to have the middle interior line guy hike it sideways back to Manuel like they do on those weird swinging gate 2 point conversion tries. On the snap here's what happens next. 6. My guys playing the interior line positions chip the 3 DL pass rushers. They're special teams guys not regular O linemen, so I can't expect more than a chip anyway. All they're doing is buying Manuel a slight head start. The 3 eligible receiver guys with bad hands sprint to the far right end zone. All but the 3 DL pass rushers either retreat with them or are already back there, 'cause that's what they're trained to do. They've been drilled that nobody gets behind them on this play, at least while Manuel has the ball in his hands. 7. NOW IT GETS WEIRD. Manuel runs straight back to about his own 5 yard line, Spiller runs back to his own goal line on the far side, and McKelvin simply stands up. These 3 guys have one job - - to lure the 3 pass rushing DL as deep into Bills territory as possible. Given that the 3 DL have been instructed to rush Manuel, that shouldn't be hard. I've been showing Manuel videos of killdeer birds with seemingly broken wings all week, and he knows that on this play he's not really a passer - - he's a killdeer. If he has to run toward one sideline or the other to avoid an unexpectedly quick rush, he has either Spiller or McKelvin as an outlet for a lateral behind him. After making their chip blocks, the 5 interior line guys move to the near sideline, just behind the line of scrimmage, and wait. Yeah, they just wait. 8. We've been in hurry-up mode, but now time is on our side. We can play keep-away all day if we have to. A 3 man pass rush can still get to the QB if he's looking downfield for a receiver, but Manuel isn't looking downfield. He's a killdeer. At some point he's forced to pitch it to Spiller. 9. Spiller's tendency to bounce away from defenders and give ground is usually a liability. Here it's an asset. There's no pursuit to swarm and tackle him for a big loss, 'cause 8 of the defenders are about 80 yards away near the opposite end zone. They ain't comin' up, at least not very far, 'cause nobody's thrown a forward pass yet, Manuel is still back there, and they're nervous about letting guys behind them. Spiller has the back 40 yards of Bills territory (including the end zone) from sideline to sideline to run around in, and only 3 relatively slow DL guys chasing him. He's also got McKelvin, and less preferentially Manuel, to receive a lateral if he gets hemmed in. 10. As our 3 guys play keep away, the 2 who don't have the ball at any given time are instructed to watch how deep those 3 DLs get. When all 3 are inside the five yard line and the ball is in Spiller's or McKelvin's hands, Manuel yells "Fire" or "Go" or "Jauronimo" and all 3 of our guys run toward the 5 waiting interior OL guys at the line of scrimmage by the near sideline. I want the 3 DLs stranded really deep, 'cause I don't want any of 'em goin' all Phil Hansen on our a$$ and running the play down from behind. 11. Now it's basically the 2 deep kick-off return team (minus the biggest, slowest blocker with the worst hands) against 8 pass coverage guys. We try to block for Spiller or McKelvin, but if it ain't happening it devolves into the crazy lateral play with 5 interior OL guys that (i) have better hands and ball skills than 5 true OLinemen and (ii) are probably better at blocking agile DBs way down field than the true OL guys anyway. And Manuel stays behind the line of scrimmage as the long "disaster" pitch-back option. OK, this is pretty theatrical, but if you think the deception stuff is silly, just use Spiller and McKelvin in a split backfield from the get-go and do the rest the same. I personally would try to hide McKelvin just to make it look a little more like a weird pass play at the start than a kick return - - might not be worth the effort. The kick return team guys are a lot more useful if you wind up having to do crazy laterals than the 5 true OLinemen - - the play almost always ends when the ball is directed to them. You could make minor variations to personnel to improve the odds that the 8 pass defenders continue to play very deep pass coverage while you lure the 3 DL pass rushers deep into your own territory. It's now Monday after the game - - fire away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I'm not going to read that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted January 9, 2014 Author Share Posted January 9, 2014 OK, but you're gonna miss the part where Manuel yells "Jauronimo." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 OK, but you're gonna miss the part where Manuel yells "Jauronimo." Damn it. Fine, I'll read it. But its going to take a while seeing as you don't subscribe to that whole brevity thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted January 9, 2014 Author Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Yeah, I admit I'm pretty wordy. Edit: Turns out my other wrinkle vaguely mentioned upthread won't work because of an NFL rule - - so less to read ! Edited January 9, 2014 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 OK, but you're gonna miss the part where Manuel yells "Jauronimo." LOL!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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