PolishDave Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) I don't much care for mob mentality either, but I think fans have a right to be mad about this situation. If Crossman had a good coaching record prior to coming here, he would not be getting this kind of flak right now. But he doesn't have a good record. This year should have been a probation year for Crossman based on his coaching history. This year should have been Crossman's chance to prove the naysayers wrong. But Crossman failed. He proved them 100% correct. He proved he lacks the skill. You know what would be nice that I am sure isn't going to happen? It would be nice if Marrone would put his own ass on the hot seat and give a public film breakdown of why the poor special teams' performance is not due to coaching. Saying they need "better players" is a vague avoidance of the issue and a lame ass cover up. You can always blame it on players. I want to see him explain exactly how this Crossman guy coached well and still ended up with lousy results. Show me coach. I bet you can't. The least you could do is tell the fans the truth about why you are choosing to not make a change here. What is the real reason? We know why. And it has nothing to do with coaching ability. If it is about coaching then prove it. Edited January 6, 2014 by PolishDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Anyone know where Marrone likes to drink? I'm considering a career change and would like to get a gig as a position coach for the Bills. I don't have any experience, but I've been watching all 22, I've played a lot of Madden, and I'm fun to drink beer with. If any of you knows where I could happen upon a chance encounter with him at such an establishment I'd be very appreciative. Thanks in advance. Your record of failure is likely not of the requisite length to be considered a buddy he would hire. In fact, that resume you just listed disqualifies you completely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobobonators Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) I don't much care for mob mentality either, but I think fans have a right to be mad about this situation. If Crossman had a good coaching record prior to coming here, he would not be getting this kind of flak right now. But he doesn't have a good record. This year should have been a probation year for Crossman based on his coaching history. This year should have been Crossman's chance to prove the naysayers wrong. But Crossman failed. He proved them 100% correct. He proved he lacks the skill. You know what would be nice that I am sure isn't going to happen? It would be nice if Marrone would put his own ass on the hot seat and give a public film breakdown of why the poor special teams' performance is not due to coaching. Saying they need "better players" is a vague avoidance of the issue and a lame ass cover up. You can always blame it on players. I want to see him explain exactly how this Crossman guy coached well and still ended up with lousy results. Show me coach. I bet you can't. The least you could do is tell the fans the truth about why you are choosing to not make a change here. What is the real reason? We know why. And it has nothing to do with coaching ability. If it is about coaching then prove it. Good post. Saying that special teams needs more players is along the same stance as when chris brown said "there will be surprising" changes next season, inferring that if marrone doesnt feel he can win with some players, theyll be cut. AKA, its not my marrones fault that we went 6-10, its the players fault. Marrone is coming off as a hard-nosed clown. Hate to say it Edited January 6, 2014 by bobobonators Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Good post. Saying that special teams needs more players is along the same stance as when chris brown said "there will be surprising" changes next season, inferring that if marrone doesnt feel he can win with some players, theyll be cut. AKA, its not my marrones fault that we went 6-10, its the players fault. Marrone is coming off as a hard-nosed clown. Hate to say it This makes his firing of the lowly WR coach even more of a joke. I'm still betting Ike told him Hackett's a joke (or that the Bills should draft another QB this year!) and that's why he was let go. I could see Marrone bithcing about the WRs and Ike saying "look who you got throwing to them!"---and then they escorted Ike out with a cardboard box in his hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey D Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Clever. Not that the irony here is lost on me, but let's look at your argument logically and compare it against the irrational pitchfork crowd you've rallied against: On one hand you've got: 10 year track record of poor performance Previous ST units have gotten better after he left Our ST got substantially worse upon his arrival In week 17 after having a full season to implement his approach the team gets destroyed again on ST The counterargument: His best friend got a gig as a rookie HC for the Masters of the Football Universe - The Buffalo Bills, and gave him a job. (And if you don't agree you should be an NFL HC). You make a compelling argument. I'm trying to figure out now how we could have doubted you. You cherry picked that one statement after a longer exchange. I'm not going to repeat everything I wrote earlier, but if Marrone is either too stupid or too loyal not to see Crossman totally sucks--which you suggest is obvious-- then we have a much bigger problem here than Danny Crossman-- we have an utterly incompetent head coach who does not know where his own economic interests lie. I can't reach that conclusion about Marrone, at least not yet. Apparently you already have, so that explains our different views. It has little to do with Crossman, and everything to do with Marrone and his judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) You cherry picked that one statement after a longer exchange. I'm not going to repeat everything I wrote earlier, but if Marrone is either too stupid or too loyal not to see Crossman totally sucks--which you suggest is obvious-- then we have a much bigger problem here than Danny Crossman-- we have an utterly incompetent head coach who does not know where his own economic interests lie. I can't reach that conclusion about Marrone, at least not yet. Apparently you already have, so that explains our different views. It has little to do with Crossman, and everything to do with Marrone and his judgment. what we can hope, is that he hits on a qb and that covers some mistakes. even sean payton who he coached under is a bit notorious for holding on to coaches and players too long for what appear to be sentimental reasons. when your good people give you a hard time for it, when you are bad you get fired for it. Edited January 6, 2014 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 You cherry picked that one statement after a longer exchange. I'm not going to repeat everything I wrote earlier, but if Marrone is either too stupid or too loyal not to see Crossman totally sucks--which you suggest is obvious-- then we have a much bigger problem here than Danny Crossman-- we have an utterly incompetent head coach who does not know where his own economic interests lie. I can't reach that conclusion about Marrone, at least not yet. Apparently you already have, so that explains our different views. It has little to do with Crossman, and everything to do with Marrone and his judgment. From earlier in this thread: I said after the NE game that if Marrone insisted on keeping Crossman he should be fired, which I know sounds extreme but to me that decision speaks to his overall judgment and ability to effectively and introspectively assess the strengths and weaknesses of the team as well as the ability and willingness to do what needs to be done to improve and win. If I'm trying real hard to defend him though, I suppose it's possible that some of the blame for the poor performance is not on Crossman, but due to massive mid-year roster moves. There was a lot of roster shifting that did not so much effect the offense or defense, but had a significant impact on ST. Cutting Choice, for example, deprived the ST unit of a solid contributor toward the end of the year. I've not done in depth evaluation of ST so I don't know if this is the case, but if Crossman coached the right coverage but inexperienced players missed plays I could at least see why Marrone might give him another chance. None of this addresses Crossman's prior record of failure, but I really want to believe this move isn't as bad as it appears. For Marrone's sake he better hope Crossman can get his unit together b/c every HC gets a pass on his first season. Now's when he's expected to "show us the baby," and another abortion isn't going to cut it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 You know what would be nice that I am sure isn't going to happen? It would be nice if Marrone would put his own ass on the hot seat and give a public film breakdown of why the poor special teams' performance is not due to coaching. Saying they need "better players" is a vague avoidance of the issue and a lame ass cover up. You can always blame it on players. I want to see him explain exactly how this Crossman guy coached well and still ended up with lousy results. Show me coach. I bet you can't. The least you could do is tell the fans the truth about why you are choosing to not make a change here. What is the real reason? We know why. And it has nothing to do with coaching ability. If it is about coaching then prove it. And it shouldn't ever happen in my opinion. He is the head coach, Whaley is the GM. We might not agree with the choice, but it's the one that at least for now has been made. Fans can yell and scream all they want. But for a HC to give a public breakdown of why he did not fire one of his reports is just plain crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey D Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 How is Greggo Marrone different from Greggo? Here are the similarities I see: Inability to communicate to the press Inability to accept blame for a bad decision without throwing at least a little jab in someone else's direction Inability to adjust his style when it is not working....like the Dareus situation Normally correctible coaching issues that will he harder to correct due to hardheadedness I could cite several examples but the basic theme is that rather than adapt to his environment he wants his environment to adapt to him because he talks like a tough guy. I do think Greggo Marrone actually has more tangible credibility than Greggo ever did, but that is not enough to make the world do what you want it to do. What do you see about them that is different? Lots of things. Many of your facts are incorrect IMO. First Marrone's players seem to like and respect him, never the case with GW. The press largely likes him and his candor-- he generally gets very good press. He admits mistakes all the time vis challenges and using timeouts and the formation when TL did the QB sneak in NE. He seems to have a philosophy and vision where he wants to go with the team. His success at Syracuse. He is an emotional and candid guy. All sorts of differences. I'll agree he is not the most articulate guy like GW, but he is not full of false bravado in my judgment like GW. I think they are very different people Time will tell, you could be right, but I think superficial stuff is clouding your view IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Epiphany.... Hey...If EJ doesn't work out during the first half of next season, can we move him to special teams to shore up the talent? Maybe he can chase guys down and tackle them on kickoffs? Is that the kind of player talent Marrone wants for his special teams unit to not suck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey D Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) From earlier in this thread: There you have it. I think we largely agree. I should have gone back and reread what you wrote earlier-- my bad. Edited January 6, 2014 by Casey D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 And it shouldn't ever happen in my opinion. He is the head coach, Whaley is the GM. We might not agree with the choice, but it's the one that at least for now has been made. Fans can yell and scream all they want. But for a HC to give a public breakdown of why he did not fire one of his reports is just plain crazy. Educating your customers on why your company does what it does is a bad idea? I would think the opposite case is true. How is it bad to help fans understand why you made a certain decision? It can only be bad if the reasons are illogical. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Epiphany.... Hey...If EJ doesn't work out during the first half of next season, can we move him to special teams to shore up the talent? Maybe he can chase guys down and tackle them on kickoffs? Is that the kind of player talent Marrone wants for his special teams unit to not suck? Chase who down?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Educating your customers on why your company does what it does is a bad idea? I would think the opposite case is true. How is it bad to help fans understand why you made a certain decision? It can only be bad if the reasons are illogical. Right? Yes it is a bad idea. It opens the door to fans expecting explanations on every little decision he makes. We aren't talking about who to draft first, we are talking about why he did NOT fire a special teams coach. Micromanagement sucks. Micromanagement by fans of a football head coach sucks more. A head coach enabling micromanagement of himself is borderline insane in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Yes it is a bad idea. It opens the door to fans expecting explanations on every little decision he makes. We aren't talking about who to draft first, we are talking about why he did NOT fire a special teams coach. Micromanagement sucks. Micromanagement by fans of a football head coach sucks more. A head coach enabling micromanagement of himself is borderline insane in my opinion. while im incredibly frustrated by the decision, i generally agree with this. if anything, saying he needs 6 easleys was too much and he probably should have stuck to a basic "we have met as a group and have well defined and actionable plans in place to improve the unit in the offseason" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA BILLS FAN Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Educating your customers on why your company does what it does is a bad idea? I would think the opposite case is true. How is it bad to help fans understand why you made a certain decision? It can only be bad if the reasons are illogical. Right? +1 This team hasn't made the playoffs in 15 years -- at a MINIMUM we collectively deserve explanations -- the year end presser was a completely JOKE and waste of time --- first, questions from media SUCKED and second, BILLS FO & Co. didn't answer any that were asked --- if Marrone is so confident in this joker Crossman, he must know there are serious questions about him --- come out and tell why he is so great and gets to stay --- I was honestly thinking Marrone was giving him a chance to land another job so he could exit gracefully --- this is ridiculous --- I start off 100% behind every coach and try to give all of them 3 full years --- Marrone just lost a year because of this --- he needs to be 10+ wins next year or I'd can his a$$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 There you have it. I think we largely agree. I should have gone back and reread what you wrote earlier-- my bad. No worries. I wasn't trying to attack you personally, just the statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Yes it is a bad idea. It opens the door to fans expecting explanations on every little decision he makes. We aren't talking about who to draft first, we are talking about why he did NOT fire a special teams coach. Micromanagement sucks. Micromanagement by fans of a football head coach sucks more. A head coach enabling micromanagement of himself is borderline insane in my opinion. I get your point and the whole slippery slope thing that fans would want every little thing explained to them. And I agree that doing that would be insane. I think in regards to this decision it would be warranted though. But hey, that is just my opinion. The reason I think it is warranted is because if the Bills lose a game next year where special teams mistakes contributed to the loss, you can bet that this subject is going to rear its ugly head again. Except if and when that happens, a higher percentage of fans will want to see Marrone sent to the Guillotine right alongside Mr. Crossman. If Marrone has a legit explanation other than (he's my buddy and I can't bear the thought of firing my buddy this soon) then I think he would improve his stock with the fan base a lot by explaining himself at least to a much greater extent than saying "players fault let's move on." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 -- at a MINIMUM we collectively deserve explanations -- I am always confused by this. And it must be me because many feel this way. But why do fans deserve an explanation of anything? The Bills have a product that they put on the field. They market said product how they like, which includes the press conferences and other interviews . Those that like the product, purchase it seasonally. Those that do not like the product for whatever reason, do not. Seems to be a simple and clear arrangement. Where does deserving explanations come into it? And for the record, I'm not happy with the last 14 years either. But its the choice of each of us to purchase the product one Bills drive is selling, or not. Is it not? I get your point and the whole slippery slope thing that fans would want every little thing explained to them. And I agree that doing that would be insane. I think in regards to this decision it would be warranted though. But hey, that is just my opinion. The reason I think it is warranted is because if the Bills lose a game next year where special teams mistakes contributed to the loss, you can bet that this subject is going to rear its ugly head again. Except if and when that happens, a higher percentage of fans will want to see Marrone sent to the Guillotine right alongside Mr. Crossman. If Marrone has a legit explanation other than (he's my buddy and I can't bear the thought of firing my buddy this soon) then I think he would improve his stock with the fan base a lot by explaining himself at least to a much greater extent than saying "players fault let's move on." If ST costs games next season, then Marrone will probably be canned for it. That is a risk he is taking. Explanation or no explanation to the fans, in my opinion. He may well have given such an explanation to Bills FO already, we don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA BILLS FAN Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I am always confused by this. And it must be me because many feel this way. But why do fans deserve an explanation of anything? The Bills have a product that they put on the field. They market said product how they like, which includes the press conferences and other interviews . Those that like the product, purchase it seasonally. Those that do not like the product for whatever reason, do not. Seems to be a simple and clear arrangement. Where does deserving explanations come into it? And for the record, I'm not happy with the last 14 years either. But its the choice of each of us to purchase the product one Bills drive is selling, or not. Is it not? If ST costs games next season, then Marrone will probably be canned for it. That is a risk he is taking. Explanation or no explanation to the fans, in my opinion. He may well have given such an explanation to Bills FO already, we don't know. Let me state it a different way --- if I'm trying to sell this product (the Bills) to my customers (Bills fans) it would be best to make sure customers have a clear understanding that this product is actually going to improve and get better -- I think the explanation is a way to convince fans to continue buying season tix and standing behind this team --- they don't technically owe fans anything, however, the team isn't viable without the fans (customers) --- you'd think the so-called "marketing genius" would understand that ----- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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