billsfan_34 Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 This appears to be a knee jerk reaction thread. I was under the impression that everyone was still being evaluated. If they retain Crossman it's as much on Whaley as Marrone. not knee jerk at all, the guy cant coach. As for who it falls on, thats Marrone as he assembles and disassembles the staff not Whaley.
Kirby Jackson Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 For those saying that it is not that important, do you think that he should be retained? It really doesn't matter where you rank the importance of the special teams coach on the list of issues. It's not like you have to pick a new ST coach or a new LG. Each decision is independent of one another. All that matters is whether or not keeping him is the right or wrong decision. It does not matter how important of a decision it is.
thebandit27 Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) For those saying that it is not that important, do you think that he should be retained? It really doesn't matter where you rank the importance of the special teams coach on the list of issues. It's not like you have to pick a new ST coach or a new LG. Each decision is independent of one another. All that matters is whether or not keeping him is the right or wrong decision. It does not matter how important of a decision it is. As I'll point out yet again: I never said it isn't important. I said that it pales in comparison to offense an defense, and that it does so by a significant margin. I don't know if I'd retain him or not, I'm not in the locker room or on the field to see what Marrone sees. If I'm to make assumptions and go from there, then no, I wouldn't keep Crossman. I can understand, however, why Marrone would want to give him another year to right the ship. Am I so worried about the ST that I take this decision to be an omen of doom for Marrone? No, that's crazy IMO. As others more eloquent than I am have shown, if this team gets to where it needs to be on offense and defense, Crossman won't even be a discussion point. Edited January 7, 2014 by thebandit27
YoloinOhio Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 As I'll point out yet again: I never said it isn't important. I said that it pales in comparison to offense an defense, and that it does so by a significant margin. I don't know if I'd retain him or not, I'm not in the locker room or on the field to see what Marrone sees. If I'm to make assumptions and go from there, then no, I wouldn't keep Crossman. I can understand, however, why Marrone would want to give him another year to right the ship. Am I so worried about the ST that I take this decision to be an omen of doom for Marrone? No, that's crazy IMO. As others more eloquent than I am have shown, if this team gets to where it needs to be on offense and defense, Crossman won't even be a discussion point. This. It is fine to complain about this, as it appears to be a poor decision on the surface. But he owns the decision. I know people hate to look at other teams in comparison (because, you know, 14 Years) but the Stillers are retaining Todd Haley. Much bigger issues. The QB hates him, for pete's sake. But they have their reasons, and usually the fans have the least info.
Fan in Chicago Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 This thread is too long to look. But, has anyone reminded those saying that ST teams are not important how the Bills lost their last playoff appearance ?
Rob's House Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 I think football fans in general underestimate the value of ST. I can think of some big games that turned on ST plays just off the top of my head. I'm reminded of a fumbled kick return turning my joy to sadness in the closing minutes of a game against NE a few years back. IIRC a similar play cost the 49ers a trip to the Superbowl year before last. Peyton Manning's victory drive in Indy was precluded by a ST blunder. ST plays were one of the few things that kept us in games last year. And I'm not going to go so far as to say we'd have won in NE had the ST unit had played a mediocre game, but we'd have had a chance. The point is, ST may not be the sexiest aspect of the game, but it can be the difference between 7-9 and 9-7, and that's a huge difference. This thread is too long to look. But, has anyone reminded those saying that ST teams are not important how the Bills lost their last playoff appearance ? Nice. I'm a little embarrassed that I didn't cite this example too.
NoSaint Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 Am I so worried about the ST that I take this decision to be an omen of doom for Marrone? No, that's crazy IMO. As others more eloquent than I am have shown, if this team gets to where it needs to be on offense and defense, Crossman won't even be a discussion point. id argue that if the team gets where it needs to be on offense and defense itll be an even bigger deal if ST loses a game for us. imagine if sunday was a "win and your in" type of game, or if we looked back on the cleveland game and it was the difference between a 2 seed and a 6 seed. I think football fans in general underestimate the value of ST. I can think of some big games that turned on ST plays just off the top of my head. I'm reminded of a fumbled kick return turning my joy to sadness in the closing minutes of a game against NE a few years back. IIRC a similar play cost the 49ers a trip to the Superbowl year before last. Peyton Manning's victory drive in Indy was precluded by a ST blunder. ST plays were one of the few things that kept us in games last year. And I'm not going to go so far as to say we'd have won in NE had the ST unit had played a mediocre game, but we'd have had a chance. The point is, ST may not be the sexiest aspect of the game, but it can be the difference between 7-9 and 9-7, and that's a huge difference. Nice. I'm a little embarrassed that I didn't cite this example too. or a 9-7 and 11-5 and that can be homefield advantage and a bye week vs out of the playoffs completely.
GA BILLS FAN Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 The "Eye test". A lot of comments on value of special teams and rankings etc. etc. I think it was clear in TWO games this year, that special teams factored big in the team losing -- it wasn't one play, but several. In addition, I can't recall one game where special teams factored into a game to help Bills win. So, at minimum, the ST unit is 0-2. Being 8-8 vs. 6-10 isn't a big deal --- being 10-6 vs. 8-8 IS and certainly the direction we expect to be headed --- the big issue, in my mind is accountability and Marrone living to his own mantra. Another point to make, this team is loaded with return men who exceled in past with Bills and/or in college. To have our return averages be so dismal is mind boggling. FIRE CROSSMAN and let's all move on. ST is important.
Mr. WEO Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 I don't think there is such a thing a "great" Special Team's coach either. It's too up and down. That's why I'm not overly upset about him keeping Crossman. Marrone's job will depend a lot more on 1. Offense and 2. Defense. Getting good special teams, IMO, is a distant 3rd. I disagree. This is low hanging fruit--and likely easier to correct than the problems in his offense. It should be fairly easy to find a ST coach who isn't horrible. If he did, a still significant portion of his game improves without taking up much energy and making too many other changes.
Kirby Jackson Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 The "Eye test". A lot of comments on value of special teams and rankings etc. etc. I think it was clear in TWO games this year, that special teams factored big in the team losing -- it wasn't one play, but several. In addition, I can't recall one game where special teams factored into a game to help Bills win. So, at minimum, the ST unit is 0-2. Being 8-8 vs. 6-10 isn't a big deal --- being 10-6 vs. 8-8 IS and certainly the direction we expect to be headed --- the big issue, in my mind is accountability and Marrone living to his own mantra. Another point to make, this team is loaded with return men who exceled in past with Bills and/or in college. To have our return averages be so dismal is mind boggling. FIRE CROSSMAN and let's all move on. ST is important. Really strong argument.
3rdand12 Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 The difference from last year ST to this years is very apparent to me. Stats be damned . The play trended downhill all year. which is odd . Especially if were about the players
Wayne Cubed Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) I disagree. This is low hanging fruit--and likely easier to correct than the problems in his offense. It should be fairly easy to find a ST coach who isn't horrible. If he did, a still significant portion of his game improves without taking up much energy and making too many other changes. I do agree that ST are something that can easily be fixed. I just don't believe it's the difference between a team that contends and one that doesn't. Dick Jauron led Bills were consistently 7-9, despite having one of the best ST units in the league. That to me, demonstrates that even if you have the best ST's, it's still not good enough. Is ST's important? Of course it is, but like I said it's a distant 3rd in priority to the offense and defense, IMO. EDIT: And like I said above, when the Bills improve an offense that has been no better than 16th in the past 10 years thats when they'll start seeing the post season. If Marrone isn't able to improve the offense and lets just say ST's improves, he'll be gone in a couple years anyways. Edited January 7, 2014 by Wayne Cubed
hondo in seattle Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 Coaches don't tackle. Players do. It's the coach's job to bring out the best in his players. Crossman doesn't do that. McKelvin, for example, averaged 18.7 yard per PR in 2012. He averaged a paltry 5.6 under Crossman. Bobby April knew how to get the best out of his players and our STs were ranked consistently in the top 5 under his leadership. Football Outsiders has us ranked 30th under Crossman. Crossman's resume doesn't unambiguously scream winner. Yes, back in 2008, his talented Panther squad led the NFL in ST. But with the Lions, he once gave up 4 ST TDs in two games - first team since at least 1940 to give up a kickoff and punt return for touchdowns in two consecutive weeks. Lions fans wanted him out last year as much as Bills fans want him out this year.
yungmack Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 There were threads all year that popped up here and there about Crossman's shortcomings, but nothing like the post-season crusade that everyone has been on. The fact is that if we didn't end the season on the New England loss, there would be a lot more people buying into Marrone's idea of getting more core players and giving Crossman another year. It's classic recency effect, combined with another horrible loss to the Patriots, that has caused everyone to go on this crusade against Crossman. Look, I am not defending the guy. I questioned the hire from the beginning, and think he did a poor job (and said so at times this year too). But I am not going to "lose faith" in Marrone or compare him to "Greggo," or think he is into cronyism because he decided to keep Crossman. I have been following pro football a lot longer than most of you have been alive and I have never ever heard a head coach say he needed to get more special team players. Aside from the kicker, punter, snapper and holder, the rest of that squad is made up of guys on the regular roster, some of whom are starters but most of them are the back-ups. In fact, many guys make the regular roster because of their ability to play on special teams. If the guys the Bills used this year on special teams aren't up to that job, how can they possibly be good enough to be back-ups? Compare Crossman's units with what Pettine and his assistants accomplished: they managed to salvage the careers of Aaron Williams, Leodis McKelvin, possibly Manny Lawson, Mario Williams and Jerry Hughes, not to mention getting phenomenal rookie seasons out of Kiko and Nickell. This on the heels of the god-awful defense that Wannstedt ran last year. I believe that much of that improvement has to do with coaching, just as the drop-off in special teams this year from last does. Crossman was this season's Dave Wannstedt, whose failures negatively impacted the team overall.
GA BILLS FAN Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 I have been following pro football a lot longer than most of you have been alive and I have never ever heard a head coach say he needed to get more special team players. Aside from the kicker, punter, snapper and holder, the rest of that squad is made up of guys on the regular roster, some of whom are starters but most of them are the back-ups. In fact, many guys make the regular roster because of their ability to play on special teams. If the guys the Bills used this year on special teams aren't up to that job, how can they possibly be good enough to be back-ups? Compare Crossman's units with what Pettine and his assistants accomplished: they managed to salvage the careers of Aaron Williams, Leodis McKelvin, possibly Manny Lawson, Mario Williams and Jerry Hughes, not to mention getting phenomenal rookie seasons out of Kiko and Nickell. This on the heels of the god-awful defense that Wannstedt ran last year. I believe that much of that improvement has to do with coaching, just as the drop-off in special teams this year from last does. Crossman was this season's Dave Wannstedt, whose failures negatively impacted the team overall. Great post ---
FLFan Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 I like Marrone and think he generally has this team headed in the right direction, but I just cannot find a decent argument to defend keeping Crossman. The ineptitude is alarming. I hope this does not become his (and the Bills) Achilles Heel.
Mr. WEO Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 I do agree that ST are something that can easily be fixed. I just don't believe it's the difference between a team that contends and one that doesn't. Dick Jauron led Bills were consistently 7-9, despite having one of the best ST units in the league. That to me, demonstrates that even if you have the best ST's, it's still not good enough. Is ST's important? Of course it is, but like I said it's a distant 3rd in priority to the offense and defense, IMO. EDIT: And like I said above, when the Bills improve an offense that has been no better than 16th in the past 10 years thats when they'll start seeing the post season. If Marrone isn't able to improve the offense and lets just say ST's improves, he'll be gone in a couple years anyways. If it can easily be fixed, then why not fix it? And while mgreat special teams won't necessarily elevate a bad team, bad special teams will absolutely habndicap a bad team. As yungmack deftly points out, the players are all otherwise on the roster. Get a new coach. It's easy--becuase how could the results be worse?
RyanC883 Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 Marrone needs to go. He clearly keeps people he "gets along with" like Crossman, who's unit was AWFUL, while firing those he has "disagreements with" like Ike Hillard, who had a decent WR corp featuring two rookies, two of which performed well (Woods and Goodwin). Hillard also had to coach the WR's to catch balls thrown by sub-par QB's. I've had enough of Marrone's juvenile antics. This thread is too long to look. But, has anyone reminded those saying that ST teams are not important how the Bills lost their last playoff appearance ? Great point! Add to that how FSU came back yesterday to win the Championship! Or how Auburn got to the game. The "Eye test". A lot of comments on value of special teams and rankings etc. etc. I think it was clear in TWO games this year, that special teams factored big in the team losing -- it wasn't one play, but several. In addition, I can't recall one game where special teams factored into a game to help Bills win. So, at minimum, the ST unit is 0-2. Being 8-8 vs. 6-10 isn't a big deal --- being 10-6 vs. 8-8 IS and certainly the direction we expect to be headed --- the big issue, in my mind is accountability and Marrone living to his own mantra. Another point to make, this team is loaded with return men who exceled in past with Bills and/or in college. To have our return averages be so dismal is mind boggling. FIRE CROSSMAN and let's all move on. ST is important. Well said! That's too bad. Marrone is stubborn, we've seen it with players and now with the coaches. It's a bad, bad trait for head coaches (but common) and it's going to get Marrone fired in a year or two, I fear. Hopefully fired sooner rather than later. He keeps his friends, regardless of his so-called regard for "accountability."
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 I have been following pro football a lot longer than most of you have been alive and I have never ever heard a head coach say he needed to get more special team players. Aside from the kicker, punter, snapper and holder, the rest of that squad is made up of guys on the regular roster, some of whom are starters but most of them are the back-ups. In fact, many guys make the regular roster because of their ability to play on special teams. If the guys the Bills used this year on special teams aren't up to that job, how can they possibly be good enough to be back-ups. I think marrone must have meant depth guys that could double as special team aces-- like Easley this year it McIntyre in prior years. Not necessarily just getting a bunch of ST specialists.
McD Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 ST's are a big part of the game. Crossman has done little (in his career) to earn more time to prove his worth.
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