Rubes Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 What really gets me about people who argue against drafting a QB in the 1st round again is the following: That group of people assume that by drafting another QB, we're automatically giving up on EJ. That's not the case. We're simply adding talent to a position (which just so happens to be the most important position in the NFL) where we currently lack QUALITY depth. The beauty is, the new rookie wage scale allows us to draft another QB early without crippling our cap numbers...something that wasn't feasible in the past. To me, the idea of not drafting QB's early in back to back years is an antiquated one. I'm not saying we have to draft another QB early, but if we did, I certainly wouldn't go nuts. I'm in the camp against drafting a QB int he first round again, but this is not my reasoning. My reasoning is that the Bills have too many holes to fill to spend another #1 pick on a QB. While it's true that you need a good QB to succeed in the NFL, we still don't know what we have with Manuel. It's also true that you need to hit on your #1 picks. And since only one QB can be on the field at a time, it makes more sense to me to spend the #1 pick on another position of need until we have a better sense of what we have with Manuel. I'd be okay with a #3 pick on a QB, but not a #1 or #2, at least not with all the needs this team still has.
bobobonators Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Rubes: I don't necessarily disagree with you. Yes, we have holes, but how many holes do we actually have? Fact is, better play from the QB position this season (regardless of player - just production from the position) and one can argue that we're possibly in the playoffs. Of all the holes we have, lack of quality QB play still remains at the top of the list. Much the same way I can sit here and say we need to sign an O-lineman or draft a Guard, there are a bunch of young players on our roster that are still "unproven" and could end up filling a need on the OL. Of course we don't know what we have in EJ. Even more reason to make sure we have a viable replacement in place. Drafting a QB rd 1 this year won't prevent EJ from starting. EJ playing poorly will prevent EJ from starting. And if that's the case, we'll be ahead of the curve with his replacement. Again, not saying that we must take a QB; just saying that if a no-brainer is there at 9 (Manziel), it would be foolish not to take him b/c we "need" a LB.
ChanOverChin Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 OGs and TEs are a dime a dozen. We can improve both positions with mid level vet FAs. Drafting another QB with the potential that Manuel has or even better OR trading for a vet QB the likes of B. Roethlisberger, that's the kind of move that could very likely put the Bills in the playoffs again and KEEP THEM THERE for a significant amount of time. The Bills supposedly got the best QB in the 2013 draft, but by comparison, the top QBs in the 2014 draft may be much better. I would say to Whaley/Marrone that if you're happy with 6-10 then don't make a move at QB, but if you actually want to give yourself a chance to make the playoffs then make the move. We need somebody who can compete with Brady/Bress/P. Manning/Luck, not somebody who "seems to be coming along". I love Manuel and firmly believe that he is worth developing. I love his character. But there's nothing wrong with beefing up the depth at QB with someone who can actually compete with him and maybe even beat him out. The Bills have no hope without a high quality QB. That has to be the focus!!!
tennesseeboy Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Why do Bills fans continue to debate about Johnny Manziel possibly falling to the Bills #9 spot? It's an epic fail of a debate because there is literally no chance of that happening. He's going to the Texans at #1 or to the next QB starved team that trades up to the Rams spot at #2. There's basically about 6 teams ahead of the Bills spot that needs a QB like Johnny Manziel. Why in the world is there STILL a debate going on about the Bills having the choice to take Johnny Manziel? Agreed. I'd love to get Manziel but can't see him getting to nine. As to what the bills haven't got and need badly...tight end, outside linebacker and guard. Trading back and getting an extra pick and we can address this problem. Is EJ the future? He gets hurt and can't play a lot, and if that doesn't change soon he sure won't be...but I'll give him a second year to justify his position.
bmur66 Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 If there is a franchise caliber QB available at 9 then I say pick him. EJ has not solidified a lock on the position and if you ain't got a great QB then you ain't got squat!
dogman Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 How good Manuel is, will be, should be .... blah blah blah. He ain't-yet. He also can't stay on the field. Draft QBs until you find one. If you end up with two, trade one. If the competition bothers Manuel he isn't competitive enough. Also, no one should have to be Bill Polian or have 8,000 posts to make a comment here. People with professional qualifications are not blogging on the internet.
ColdBlueNorth Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Several QBs are going to be selected before we select and a few great players will slide-possible Sammy Watkins, Johnny Football. hell maybe even Barr. What I am hoping is that a player much coveted by another team is available, and we can trade down to the 20s. Ideally if we had 3-4 late first, second round picks, we could upgrade 3-4 positions right off the bat. Oline is deep and will be available there. Cyril Richardson would be a solid addition to our oline. TE should be available there too. WR is deep as well. We are in a good spot and on the cusp of greatness! I like this approach. I have advocated grabbing a true 3-4 run stuffing NT like Pettine has used in the past with the Jets to truly implement the defense he would probably like to use here. Nix may fall after off-season knee surgery and he was the top rated NT - after that the drop-off in ranking of available NT's is pretty steep with a log jam of them projected as 2nd to 4th round talents. If they miss on Nix or think there are too many risks physically they can pass on this need till later. Earlier in the draft I like the elite WR's because after the top 2-3 (Watkins, Evans, and Lee) there is a pretty good drop-off in talent there - Watkins is awesome, but I like Evans size better. If we can acquire another 2nd rounder for a team moving up then it would be great to grab a TE like Ebron or Amaro. After that it is a deep draft of quality OG and we can stock up and still pickup a gap-hitting linebacker to challenge for that weakside spot where our current crop of linebackers seem more suited to coverage and rushing the passer off the edge. The wild card is Safety with ?s around Byrd. Clinton-Dix is a legit ball-hawking safety and will go in the 1st. If the Bills feel they have to replace Byrd and tagging him will not keep him in the fold then they may have to stay put to have a shot at Dix although 9 is a bit early for him - most have him going in the mid to late 1st round. They could drop back and miss him although I think they would be safe trading back 3-4 spots, after that it is a crap shoot. I have heard the arguments about drafting a QB so why engage in them - aint gonna happen early, but they may pick up someone later particularly with the injuries and depth issues we have had this year. And for all of those who go nuts when I say we should draft a NT fairly early, our run defense is anywhere from stinks to inconsistent and either way it is not where it needs to be to be a true championship defense - particularly against quality teams. Also, I have more faith in Pettine fielding a top-flight defense than I do that the offense will be top-flight any time soon so we should give him what he needs first. When you think about the defensive family tree Pettine comes from (the Jets and the Ravens) they have always had a wide-bodied run stuffer in the middle of the defense to compliment their risky attacking style of play particularly when he goes with a 3-man front and we lack that player with the bills - Dareus can fit that role in a pinch, but he is probably a better fit as a penetrating 3 technique DT or DE. I know folks have advocated more run-stuffing linebackers, but that sounds more like LeBeau's defense than a Ryan defense - although we do seem to have a run-stopping need on the weakside. Flame away folks.
Boatdrinks Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 What really gets me about people who argue against drafting a QB in the 1st round again is the following: That group of people assume that by drafting another QB, we're automatically giving up on EJ. That's not the case. We're simply adding talent to a position (which just so happens to be the most important position in the NFL) where we currently lack QUALITY depth. The beauty is, the new rookie wage scale allows us to draft another QB early without crippling our cap numbers...something that wasn't feasible in the past. To me, the idea of not drafting QB's early in back to back years is an antiquated one. I'm not saying we have to draft another QB early, but if we did, I certainly wouldn't go nuts. Unfortunately in the NFL, that "group of people" that will question the current QB is....the other players on the team. That's NFL culture, good luck changing it. That's why the Bills will not do this, not because they are worried about what a bunch of fans/talking heads are saying. It's about the locker room. And can we finally be clear about the new salary structure/CBA ? Teams did not get these changes made so they could draft multiple high round QB's and ultimately sit one of them on the bench until they become a FA. They did it so when the proper amount of development time is given (that amount of time has NOT changed) and some QB's inevitably do not work out, the team can cut that player without being placed in "cap jail" for years with huge "dead money". No team to date has been "stocking up the cupboard" with QB prospects taken with high picks for all these reasons, and I predict that you will not see this happen. You still can only play/develop one QB at a time, especially with CBA practice rules being so restrictive.
filthymcnasty08 Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 I like this approach. I have advocated grabbing a true 3-4 run stuffing NT like Pettine has used in the past with the Jets to truly implement the defense he would probably like to use here. Nix may fall after off-season knee surgery and he was the top rated NT - after that the drop-off in ranking of available NT's is pretty steep with a log jam of them projected as 2nd to 4th round talents. If they miss on Nix or think there are too many risks physically they can pass on this need till later. Earlier in the draft I like the elite WR's because after the top 2-3 (Watkins, Evans, and Lee) there is a pretty good drop-off in talent there - Watkins is awesome, but I like Evans size better. If we can acquire another 2nd rounder for a team moving up then it would be great to grab a TE like Ebron or Amaro. After that it is a deep draft of quality OG and we can stock up and still pickup a gap-hitting linebacker to challenge for that weakside spot where our current crop of linebackers seem more suited to coverage and rushing the passer off the edge. The wild card is Safety with ?s around Byrd. Clinton-Dix is a legit ball-hawking safety and will go in the 1st. If the Bills feel they have to replace Byrd and tagging him will not keep him in the fold then they may have to stay put to have a shot at Dix although 9 is a bit early for him - most have him going in the mid to late 1st round. They could drop back and miss him although I think they would be safe trading back 3-4 spots, after that it is a crap shoot. I have heard the arguments about drafting a QB so why engage in them - aint gonna happen early, but they may pick up someone later particularly with the injuries and depth issues we have had this year. And for all of those who go nuts when I say we should draft a NT fairly early, our run defense is anywhere from stinks to inconsistent and either way it is not where it needs to be to be a true championship defense - particularly against quality teams. Also, I have more faith in Pettine fielding a top-flight defense than I do that the offense will be top-flight any time soon so we should give him what he needs first. When you think about the defensive family tree Pettine comes from (the Jets and the Ravens) they have always had a wide-bodied run stuffer in the middle of the defense to compliment their risky attacking style of play particularly when he goes with a 3-man front and we lack that player with the bills - Dareus can fit that role in a pinch, but he is probably a better fit as a penetrating 3 technique DT or DE. I know folks have advocated more run-stuffing linebackers, but that sounds more like LeBeau's defense than a Ryan defense - although we do seem to have a run-stopping need on the weakside. Flame away folks. Jordan Matthews out of Vanderbilt is a WR with the build and skill set that we all seem to want - was highly productive (led the SEC in receptions) and projects as a high 2nd rounder. We would not have to go "elite" WR with our first pick and if a trade down is in order, this would be a nice pick for us with our first #2.
Pete Posted January 6, 2014 Author Posted January 6, 2014 The point of thread was to discus trading down when an elite player was available and drafting 3-4 starters a la kiko. The knee jerk QB crowd has aggressively argued to draft a QB in the first no matter the talent at other positions. They argued for Joey Harrington. Last year rational posters explained it was a weak QB class and we should wait. "No- we need a QB now! All our problems will be solved if we draft a QB in 1st". I just don't understand that myopic logic
bobobonators Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) Boatdrinks: I hear what you're saying, but NFL players aren't dumb. They know who practices better. They know who produces better on the field. At the end of the day, produce on the field and no one can say anything. Period. People act as if we just have to put EJ at #1 and step aside b/c his psyche is made of paper and heaven forbid he have any competition. Maybe competition is a good thing? And trust me, I'm not arguing "stocking up the cupboard" with QB's at Buffalo. We TRADED DOWN to get a QB last year..and then ended up with Tuel and Thad behind an often injured EJ. Lets not act as if we traded the farm and jumped up to get EJ, and then took another QB in the 3rd round. I'm for getting a QB in any round, if the player has that high of a grade. Edited January 6, 2014 by bobobonators
Hazed and Amuzed Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 If Manziel is there and we don't select him, the FO are incompetent fools and should finally be replaced after all these years of underachievement. Also would not take a guard first round and the WRs maybe deep but an elite WR we have not. The defense is basically fine and only really needs a run stuffing LB. We need offense and lots of it; QB, TE, WR and OL and even an RB to groom if CJ goes and Fred has been injured on and off. BRO every QB you like SUCKS. You are the George Costanza of football.
RuntheDamnBall Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 BRO every QB you like SUCKS. You are the George Costanza of football. Case in point: BB turned Mike Glennon into a lesbian.
Fan in San Diego Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Picking a Qb in round 1 is a luxury we cant afford. we have to many other needs to fill before picking another QB. 2014 is the year to find out what we have in EJ.
ColdBlueNorth Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Jordan Matthews out of Vanderbilt is a WR with the build and skill set that we all seem to want - was highly productive (led the SEC in receptions) and projects as a high 2nd rounder. We would not have to go "elite" WR with our first pick and if a trade down is in order, this would be a nice pick for us with our first #2. I have to admit, he was not really on my radar. I took a closer look and there is a lot to like about the kid. You are right. He has the size and is not only productive he really comes on in bigger games. I like that he comes out of Vanderbilt too - not really known as a thug-elite school (no offense to those that think only criminal players are worth picking).
Hazed and Amuzed Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 I have to admit, he was not really on my radar. I took a closer look and there is a lot to like about the kid. You are right. He has the size and is not only productive he really comes on in bigger games. I like that he comes out of Vanderbilt too - not really known as a thug-elite school (no offense to those that think only criminal players are worth picking). Who exactly thinks this? What poster here has said that ONLY criminal players are worth picking?
filthymcnasty08 Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 I have to admit, he was not really on my radar. I took a closer look and there is a lot to like about the kid. You are right. He has the size and is not only productive he really comes on in bigger games. I like that he comes out of Vanderbilt too - not really known as a thug-elite school (no offense to those that think only criminal players are worth picking). He's under the radar because Vandy, albeit an SEC school, is usually a punching bag and doesn't usually put 1st round talent out there (I think Cutler was their only one). I like that too - he topped a very tough conference from a perennially weak team. Just lit it up in their bowl appearance...playing in the Senior Bowl. From his stats, he looks like a guy that is open even when he's not open. "All-time SEC career leader in receptions (364) and yards (4,950). Is first SEC player with 90 receptions or more in back-to-back seasons and is the first player in conference history to record 100 receptions in one season. In 2013, has 107 receptions for 1,334 yards and can add to those numbers in Vanderbilt's bowl game."
1billsfan Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Picking a Qb in round 1 is a luxury we cant afford. we have to many other needs to fill before picking another QB. 2014 is the year to find out what we have in EJ. Did you ever notice that no one actually says the name of this mythical franchise QB prospect which falls to the Bills at #9? Because it certainly will not be Bridgwater, Manziel or Bortles. So who they got left? Derek Carr?...LOL I'd much rather have EJ Manuel as a prospect and he's already been seasoned for a year and will have had a full offseason. It's so annoying that will will have to deal with this stupid "draft a QB" talk till the draft. I think the Bills should just outright announce that they are NOT drafting a QB in the first three rounds to squash all this chatter and let the Manuel non-believers know what the deal is. That the Bills are fully invested in Manuel for the 2014 season and Lewis is going to be the backup QB.
ColdBlueNorth Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Who exactly thinks this? What poster here has said that ONLY criminal players are worth picking? Meh - nice try, but not worth the effort.
Pete Posted January 6, 2014 Author Posted January 6, 2014 Jordan Matthews out of Vanderbilt is a WR with the build and skill set that we all seem to want - was highly productive (led the SEC in receptions) and projects as a high 2nd rounder. We would not have to go "elite" WR with our first pick and if a trade down is in order, this would be a nice pick for us with our first #2. exactly. Now imagine if Manziel for example was available and someone traded their late first, early second pick. Now imagine if we drafted Jordan Mathews, Cyril Richardson, and Sefarin-Jenkins. What scenerio would be better?
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