Comprehensive Bills O line evaluation thread

[SoulMan]

In this record long playoff drought, the Bills have always scrimped on the OL. In the SB years they always had a top 5 OL. Maybe there is a connection.

[bobobonators]

My question is what do we possibly have in Mark Asper, McClain, Unga, and Hairston. And can any of those 4 be an answer to at least ONE starting spot on the O-line.

 

O-line players always fascinate me in that there are countless examples across the league of unheralded players in college becoming legit starters in the NFL.

 

I'm certainly no expert on O-lineman - they're a mystery to me. My one complaint about the Bills' O-line for the last few years has been the same: they are soft. Our O-line, when push comes to shove, gets shoved around. Countless times we have been unable to convert on short yardage. This O-line needs a player or two to give it a bit of a mean streak; to give it some attitude.

Edited January 6, 2014 by bobobonators

[San Jose Bills Fan]

O-line players always fascinate me in that there are countless examples across the league of unheralded players in college becoming legit starters in the NFL.

 

Good observation. Guard particularly is a position where many non-blue chip players have had great careers.

 

Of the 5 All Pro guards this year, only 1 was drafted in the first round. Two were drafted in the 3rd round and 2 were drafted in the 4th round.

 

Also it's hard to find an offensive line that doesn't feature at least a couple of mid-low draft picks and/or undrafted free agents.

 

This even applies to some of the great O-lines in NFL history.

[bobobonators]

San Jose: completely agree.

 

I suppose one possible positive in this respect is that if anyone should know something about the O-line, it should be Marrone. Hopefully he'll be able to find a couple of diamonds in the rough and turn that group around.

[Lofton80]

I agree with Bill from NYC's take. The Bills were embarrassed by a weak Tampa team due to the weakness in the middle of the offensive line. Any quarterback need to be able to take a step

to be effective. EJ Manuel will be more effective with fewer defenders at his feet as he throws. For all the clamoring of drafting a WR, TE or one of the top QB's, it will not make a difference in the team's performance if no pocket exists. Watching SD run on Cinci and the play of SF's line at GB shows how to win in cold weather.

 

Pears- Did Ok, Harrison was pretty good when on field in the past

Urbik- was strong in early part of year, injury may have hampered him

Wood- Good player

Legursky- back up forced to start

Glenn- A star in the making

 

 

I am all for taking a second round OG or a starter level UFA - No more stop gaps. Gabe Jackson or Cyril Richardson would be nice adds.

First pick leaves a lot of possibilities: If Michigan OT Lewan is sitting there, he will be hard to ignore.

 

Fixing offensive line helps CJ Spiller as well. A better offensive line keeps the defense better rested.

[thewildrabbit]

I think the O-line is fine and they should draft more WRs and DBs.

.Buddy Nix...err Doug Marrone....is that you

 

 

In regards to Bill, and why I don't much care for Erik Pears at RT. While Pears has so many attributes that you want in a top tackle like long arms, he also has some flaws. At 6'8" 316 lbs he is very tall and this is somewhat of a liability because he just doesn't always get low enough. He can be slow to react and adjust to counter moves, as he can kick step out to pick up rushers but then struggles to recover, and move back to the inside. He is also not that quick when firing out of his stance.

 

Don't get me wrong as i like the guy to a degree, as a back up. He is an adequate starter on an average team. but should the team want to win playoff games on the road the RT position will need a definite upgrade. JMHO

Edited January 6, 2014 by FeartheLosing

[JPS]

.Buddy Nix...err Doug Marrone....is that you

 

 

In regards to Bill, and why I don't much care for Erik Pears at RT. While Pears has so many attributes that you want in a top tackle like long arms, he also has some flaws. At 6'8" 316 lbs he is very tall and this is somewhat of a liability because he just doesn't always get low enough. He can be slow to react and adjust to counter moves, as he can kick step out to pick up rushers but then struggles to recover, and move back to the inside. He is also not that quick when firing out of his stance.

 

Don't get me wrong as i like the guy to a degree, as a back up. He is an adequate starter on an average team. but should the team want to win playoff games on the road the RT position will need a definite upgrade. JMHO

Don't be humble, you are dead on with Pears. I think it is being kind to call Pears mediocre. He might be okay if the RG was a stud, but ok is his top end. I think today's NFL requires a better athlete.

[bobobonators]

I'm not big on Pears for the very fact that he's average at best, and turning 32 this summer. He is what he is, and that arrow is pointing down. Whether it's Hairston or a FA like Saffold, that position needs to be upgraded (along with LG obviously).

[sjjr]

Legursky and Pears aren't good enough at their positions for the Bills to execute the offense they want each week. Pears looked bad in pass protection particularly toward the end of the season.

 

Urbick is an average RG but was dominated by both the Jets and Bucs interior defensive lines. He could be upgraded.

 

Wood and Glenn are good at their positions, not great. Glenn could be the best LG in the league if both the Bills and him decided to go in that direction.

 

There should be options in rounds 2-5 to get a couple of solid linemen to either immediately compete or develop long term. Jake Matthews would be a great pick at 9 because he could play both tackle positions or LG immediately at a high level. Xavier Sua-Filo could be a great pick in round 2 to start right away at LG. There could be some free agents available too.

[Spiderweb]

You assume Moeaki is not viable as a starter? I think we need both new guards. Urbik is fine as a backup. Leguski's gotta go. Hopefully Hairston can push Pears to a backup role. All this said, I'd love to hear somebody who really knows what they're talking about to give us a break down as the OP suggested.

Pears' salary is too much for a back-up role. He starts or he is gone.

Moeaki is viable as a starter. It is time for Chandler to go. Probably less than 1% chance they can get Graham. It will be Moeaki, Gragg, and a rookie in 2014.

Hairston? The same Hairston who missed the entire year wirh a mystery illness or injury? In this day and age, I'm surprised that nothing has leaked out.....unless we missed it.

[bobobonators]

Spiderweb: Not really meant towards you, but I'm not sure why Hairston gets so much grief around here. I've seen many people comment on Hairston as if he's lazy and chose not to play this season and he's really not injured/or really does not have an illness. I'm sure word of that would've gotten out, and it still may get out...who knows. If he did have an illness, he's not required to disclose it specifically. So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until I hear otherwise and hope he gets healthy. I'm counting on him being healthy in 2014..he's young and has the upside we may need either to play at RT or at G down the line. At a minimum, he can be solid depth.

Edited January 6, 2014 by bobobonators

[OCinBuffalo]

Thanks for the kudos but I do not consider myself to be an expert.

Oh please. You know me, and I know you. And, if there's a better O line expert here....do tell.

 

Obviously signed up.

I am fascinated by offensive line play but very much a novice in terms of analysing it so I will read this thread with interest!

FAIL! (Yes, this is why I started the thread. But this thread is about analyzing the existing O Lineman on this team, not thanking me for starting threads. I am an = opportunity grader, thus, you FAIL!)

I think the O-line is fine and they should draft more WRs and DBs.

FAIL! If you don't understand, or don't want to talk O line...seek life elsewhere!

In this record long playoff drought, the Bills have always scrimped on the OL. In the SB years they always had a top 5 OL. Maybe there is a connection.

FAIL! Same as above.

My question is what do we possibly have in Mark Asper, McClain, Unga, and Hairston. And can any of those 4 be an answer to at least ONE starting spot on the O-line.

Signed up....but only because you reminded the rest to assess the backups. (Or, perhaps because you are the only one who actually knows the names of the backups? ) However, more content is the only way you stay signed up.

Of the 5 All Pro guards this year, only 1 was drafted in the first round. Two were drafted in the 3rd round and 2 were drafted in the 4th round.

 

Also it's hard to find an offensive line that doesn't feature at least a couple of mid-low draft picks and/or undrafted free agents.

 

This even applies to some of the great O-lines in NFL history.

FAIL! Even though you have an interesting stat....it speaks to the future, rather than dealing with the existing O line.

 

Please understand...I hate to fail you, especially since you are refuting the "always draft O line" guys by saying "it's hard to find an O line that doesn't feature low-mid draft picks" :lol:

 

But, you still fail. Existing line analysis only.

I agree with Bill from NYC's take.

Signed up

Legursky and Pears aren't good enough at their positions for the Bills ....

Signed up.

 

 

 

Keep in mind, any of those who have failed may try out again.

 

The rules are simple: analyze the existing O line, to include any or all of the players that play O line for the Bills.

[thewildrabbit]

Legursky and Pears aren't good enough at their positions for the Bills to execute the offense they want each week. Pears looked bad in pass protection particularly toward the end of the season.

 

Urbick is an average RG but was dominated by both the Jets and Bucs interior defensive lines. He could be upgraded.

 

Wood and Glenn are good at their positions, not great. Glenn could be the best LG in the league if both the Bills and him decided to go in that direction.

 

There should be options in rounds 2-5 to get a couple of solid linemen to either immediately compete or develop long term. Jake Matthews would be a great pick at 9 because he could play both tackle positions or LG immediately at a high level. Xavier Sua-Filo could be a great pick in round 2 to start right away at LG. There could be some free agents available too.

I kinda disagree on both Wood and Glenn. Mostly because they were surrounded by less then stellar players at guard. While Urbik played well in some games, he also played poorly in others.

 

Wood in past years has been playing at a pro bowl level at times, and just ended his first three seasons on IR or he might have made it to the pro bowl. Glenn played like an all pro LT this season, and if the team was winning more games that superior play probably would get recognized. Again, JMHO

[JPS]

It doesn't take an O-line coach to see that the Bills have 2 legitimate NFL O-lineman, Wood and Glenn. Urbik and Pears do well in spurts and cannot be counted on in the 4th quarter to get a 3rd and 1. MAYBE they are good enough to be backups. The street FAs installed at LG were a complete disaster are not worthy of being mentioned by name.

 

The Bills cannot plan on 'Unga or any of the other Jokers to develop into a starter. So you have 2. That's it. The rest should not be in the NFL or certainly should not be starting.

[Cheddar's Dad]

Good observation. Guard particularly is a position where many non-blue chip players have had great careers.

 

Of the 5 All Pro guards this year, only 1 was drafted in the first round. Two were drafted in the 3rd round and 2 were drafted in the 4th round.

 

Also it's hard to find an offensive line that doesn't feature at least a couple of mid-low draft picks and/or undrafted free agents.

 

This even applies to some of the great O-lines in NFL history.

 

Up until recent years, there has been a theory prevalent among those who stock talent for NFL teams, that you don't need to draft guards high. The Redskins, years ago, drafted tackles and converted them to guards. San Jose has been one of those who have hung on to that theory even though that theory seems to be held by fewer GMs. For example; in 2007, only 1 guard was taken in the first round. No guards were taken in 08 and 09. In 2010, one guard, Mike Iupati was selected with the 17th pick. In 2012, two guards were selected, Kevin zeitler (#27) and David deCastro (#24). Last year three guards were selected, Johnathon Cooper (#7), Chance warmack (#10), and Kyle long (25). Note that last year, not only were three guards selected, they were selected earlier in the first round. It is for that reason that this year's pro bowl guards feature only one first rounder, a statistical quirk that will change in future years, in my opinion, as more GMs select more first round guards.

 

There is a difference between guard and tackle. GMs look for tackles that are tall players with long arms and good footwork, not necessarily brutishly strong, except perhaps at the RT position where 1st. rd. rookie Fluker is getting a lot of attention. Guards need to be strong, shorter for drive blocking, quick and fast. Those types are hard to find and need to be selected early in my opinion.

 

Now for the Bills. The OP asks for a great deal and I cannot provide details for all that he asks. I have no stats on the current 40 yard sprints, upper and lower body strengths etc. of Buffalo's guards.

 

I do watch the Bills and read as much as I can about the team. One of the sites that I visit is WGR55.COM where Joe Buscaglia posts articles after each game. Buscaglia has referred to Legurski, Urbik, and Pears, in post game player comments, as his LVP (least valuable player) on a number of occasions. In a recent article, Five Bills Under Contract To Keep An Eye On, Buscaglia refers to Pears as "an aging and declining player that the Bills are likely to replace". Regarding guards, "the Bills are looking to upgrade at guard quite possibly at both the left and right side". I recall Marrone saying that the Bills need more push from their guards and that neither Legursky or Urbik is capable of pulling.

 

If you have watched the Bills' O-line play, you're likely thinking that the above descriptions are about what you've been seeing.

 

There has been a lot of talk since the playoffs started that a team in the playoffs needs to elevate it's intensity and toughness. The 49er O-line is the one that I like as a playoff line to duplicate. They are intense and they are tough. It is a line featuring a first round selected OT and first round selected guard.

[Rob's House]

I"m not an expert, but I've watched a fair amount of tape with focus on the O-line and it seems to me Urbik was inconsistent this year, and was more effective at pass blocking than run blocking. Sometimes he picks the wrong guy to block (particularly on screens) causing a potentially big play to be snuffed out early, and he doesn't have the strength to overpower many DTs. Put another way, he's better at holding his ground than he is at imposing his will. IMO he's pretty average. He's not that bad, but he's not that good either, just okay. I'd rate him above Legursky and slightly below Pears.

 

 

Lordy no......I'm no expert. Far from it. I'm in the same boat as you in seeking the expertise from other posters on this sort of thing.

 

Good thread though......I too would love to hear a comprehensive breakdown on the OL. It seems that Pears in particular is being touted as horrible by some & decent-above average by others. Very confusing to those of us who only typically notice the OLmen when they stuff up.

 

I'd say that Pears is a lot better than he gets credit for, but he still blows a lot more plays than he should, a few times embarrassingly so. My take is that if he's someone you want to anchor your line you're going to have a bad time, but if you have a solid crew and he's just a guy on it he's serviceable.

[Bill from NYC]

 

 

Up until recent years, there has been a theory prevalent among those who stock talent for NFL teams, that you don't need to draft guards high. The Redskins, years ago, drafted tackles and converted them to guards. San Jose has been one of those who have hung on to that theory even though that theory seems to be held by fewer GMs. For example; in 2007, only 1 guard was taken in the first round. No guards were taken in 08 and 09. In 2010, one guard, Mike Iupati was selected with the 17th pick. In 2012, two guards were selected, Kevin zeitler (#27) and David deCastro (#24). Last year three guards were selected, Johnathon Cooper (#7), Chance warmack (#10), and Kyle long (25). Note that last year, not only were three guards selected, they were selected earlier in the first round. It is for that reason that this year's pro bowl guards feature only one first rounder, a statistical quirk that will change in future years, in my opinion, as more GMs select more first round guards.

 

There is a difference between guard and tackle. GMs look for tackles that are tall players with long arms and good footwork, not necessarily brutishly strong, except perhaps at the RT position where 1st. rd. rookie Fluker is getting a lot of attention. Guards need to be strong, shorter for drive blocking, quick and fast. Those types are hard to find and need to be selected early in my opinion.

 

Now for the Bills. The OP asks for a great deal and I cannot provide details for all that he asks. I have no stats on the current 40 yard sprints, upper and lower body strengths etc. of Buffalo's guards.

 

I do watch the Bills and read as much as I can about the team. One of the sites that I visit is WGR55.COM where Joe Buscaglia posts articles after each game. Buscaglia has referred to Legurski, Urbik, and Pears, in post game player comments, as his LVP (least valuable player) on a number of occasions. In a recent article, Five Bills Under Contract To Keep An Eye On, Buscaglia refers to Pears as "an aging and declining player that the Bills are likely to replace". Regarding guards, "the Bills are looking to upgrade at guard quite possibly at both the left and right side". I recall Marrone saying that the Bills need more push from their guards and that neither Legursky or Urbik is capable of pulling.

 

If you have watched the Bills' O-line play, you're likely thinking that the above descriptions are about what you've been seeing.

 

There has been a lot of talk since the playoffs started that a team in the playoffs needs to elevate it's intensity and toughness. The 49er O-line is the one that I like as a playoff line to duplicate. They are intense and they are tough. It is a line featuring a first round selected OT and first round selected guard.

 

Your excellent posts are starting to become a habit.

 

Yes, teams have been reluctant to select guards (and for that matter TEs) early in the draft. This, as you said, is changing. The thing is, when guards WERE selected early their success rate was high as compared to other positions. Remember, Levitre was a second round pick, but the Bills traded up to get him.

And btw, the same applies to RTs. Aside from the Mike Williams debacle, who was selected as early (#11) as Fluker, who I am impressed that you saw fit to mention? I am not seeing a hard working, coachable, brutal RT to compare to Fluker in this draft, but I watch mostly Alabama games.

 

Otoh, the value of corners seems to be decreasing before our eyes in this new NFL. Aside from TB, who stupidly guaranteed Revis 16 million dollars, were there any big bucks contracts extended to free agent corners? There were none that I recall.

 

Anyway, the Bills need for a solid, talented guard is obvious, as is their need for depth at OT, let alone TE. Pears is far from great and probably is declining, but I still fail to comprehend some of the venom towards him. I can remember posters actually defending Jerry Ostroski at RT. Again, I am NOT an expert, but I can tell you that Pears is 10x better than Ostroski ever was.

 

Thanks again for a top shelf post.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Bill from NYC

[Rob's House]

Your excellent posts are starting to become a habit.

 

Yes, teams have been reluctant to select guards (and for that matter TEs) early in the draft. This, as you said, is changing. The thing is, when guards WERE selected early their success rate was high as compared to other positions. Remember, Levitre was a second round pick, but the Bills traded up to get him.

And btw, the same applies to RTs. Aside from the Mike Williams debacle, who was selected as early (#11) as Fluker, who I am impressed that you saw fit to mention? I am not seeing a hard working, coachable, brutal RT to compare to Fluker in this draft, but I watch mostly Alabama games.

 

Otoh, the value of corners seems to be decreasing before our eyes in this new NFL. Aside from TB, who stupidly guaranteed Revis 16 million dollars, were there any big bucks contracts extended to free agent corners? There were none that I recall.

 

Anyway, the Bills need for a solid, talented guard is obvious, as is their need for depth at OT, let alone TE. Pears is far from great and probably is declining, but I still fail to comprehend some of the venom towards him. I can remember posters actually defending Jerry Ostroski at RT. Again, I am NOT an expert, but I can tell you that Pears is 10x better than Ostroski ever was.

 

Thanks again for a top shelf post.

 

Dude, I don't know what you were watching but Jerry Ostroski was awesome in one of the early Madden games.

[Taro T]

I kinda disagree on both Wood and Glenn. Mostly because they were surrounded by less then stellar players at guard. While Urbik played well in some games, he also played poorly in others.

 

Wood in past years has been playing at a pro bowl level at times, and just ended his first three seasons on IR or he might have made it to the pro bowl. Glenn played like an all pro LT this season, and if the team was winning more games that superior play probably would get recognized. Again, JMHO

It'll be interesting to see how many fewer penalties Wood takes next year with at least 1 upgraded guard next to him. After Urbik's play seemed to deteriorate, Wood's penalty count seemed to go up significantly. Tough to stop your own guy and help the guy on each side of you at the same time.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Up until recent years, there has been a theory prevalent among those who stock talent for NFL teams, that you don't need to draft guards high. The Redskins, years ago, drafted tackles and converted them to guards. San Jose has been one of those who have hung on to that theory even though that theory seems to be held by fewer GMs.

 

For example; in 2007, only 1 guard was taken in the first round. No guards were taken in 08 and 09. In 2010, one guard, Mike Iupati was selected with the 17th pick. In 2012, two guards were selected, Kevin zeitler (#27) and David deCastro (#24). Last year three guards were selected, Johnathon Cooper (#7), Chance warmack (#10), and Kyle long (25). Note that last year, not only were three guards selected, they were selected earlier in the first round. It is for that reason that this year's pro bowl guards feature only one first rounder, a statistical quirk that will change in future years, in my opinion, as more GMs select more first round guards.

 

There is a difference between guard and tackle. GMs look for tackles that are tall players with long arms and good footwork, not necessarily brutishly strong, except perhaps at the RT position where 1st. rd. rookie Fluker is getting a lot of attention. Guards need to be strong, shorter for drive blocking, quick and fast. Those types are hard to find and need to be selected early in my opinion.

 

The 49er O-line is the one that I like as a playoff line to duplicate. They are intense and they are tough. It is a line featuring a first round selected OT and first round selected guard.

 

Perhaps I should retract my invitation to participate here.

 

 

I don't think your characterization of my beliefs is fully accurate.

 

I've cited teams such as New Orleans drafting tackles and moving them to guard with great success and I've also cited Buddy Nix's belief that this is a sound practice.

 

I've also discussed my skepticism of that belief due to OTs typically being taller, longer, players and OGs being shorter and playing with lower leverage.

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/161631-three-guys-that-need-more-chatter/page__st__60#entry2913077

 

I've stated that tackles who can't bend their knees and play at a appropriate pad level will have problems playing the interior line.

 

As for your last statement, the Niners actually have 3 first rounders on their O-line, not 2. They also have a 5th round pick and an undrafted free agent starting on the O-line.

 

Until last year the Bills had 1 1st round pick and 2 2nd round picks as starters. The Bills are on par with most teams in the league as far as investing high picks on O-linemen.

 

I'm against dogmatically picking offensive line at #9.

 

I'm in favor of drafting the best player available.

 

If that player happens to be an O-lineman, so be it.