Disapointed with Marrone

[YoloinOhio]

I agree about Whaley but am curious what identity Greggo Marrone has begun to establish. I saw him yelling at you in the summer over nothing. I saw him double the punishment to a player when the single dose had already failed one day into itself. This actually punished the fans more than anyone. I see him keeping a guy that failed again after a decade of consistent failure and having the gaul to blame his players. I see him choosing poor phrasing when dismissing the WR coach. What about these things is supposed to suggest to me that this newly established identity won't be one where the players tune out a blunderbust of a coach? I hope I am wrong about him but only see a few glimmers of hope....the biggest being that they did seem to play hard in almost all of the games this year.

How do you know it didn't punish/ultimately help Marcel? Are the fans really punished if, by virtue of this discipline, it makes Marcel a better player and teammate and we end up extending him and he becomes an even better DT for us than he was this year? Wpuld you be OK that he didn't play in the 1st half of a game that, while it means a lot to the fans because it is against the rival, meant nothing in terms of the ultimate goal, making the playoffs? But potentially could be a factor in the Bills making the playoffs in 2014 because sitting him down woke him up (no pun intended)? Or, are you just mad that we gave up a lot of running yards that day? Edited January 15, 2014 by YoloinOhio

[GG]

we shall see. this is a critical offseason when it comes to building on what the Bills established last year.

 

it was encouraging last year to see the Bills stock up on DL, per Pettine's wishes. and the red flag that went up with Mark Anderson's abrupt cut proved to be a false alarm given how the line came together, and the under-rated addition of Alan Branch. i thought that was a smart move.

 

what was also encouraging is how Whaley did much from a losing hand in adding one of the most qualified backup QB any team acquired after Week 3 of the preseason. Thad Lewis outshone many, including Freeman in Minnesota. of course, a case could be made that they over-estimated on Kolb, but that's another story.

 

i see analytics as already playing an influence on the Bills personnel decisions. i think Branch was one example.

 

we'll see how they proceed. and i think the first step in regards to who is in charge starts with Byrd's status.

 

i said it last summer that the Bills decision to hold firm on Byrd hurt them as much as it did the player. today, it might be hurting them even more. i don't see Byrd blinking, will the Bills?

 

jw

 

Totally agree that the Byrd talks will be a signal.

 

I think Whaley's tone suggests a desire to keep Byrd. But will Parker & Co demand a brand new market deal, or will they consider the 2013 franchise pay as part down payment on the new long term deal? I think I can guess the answer, but I imagine that will be a big part of the discussion.

[thewildrabbit]

Maybe they cycle through GMs and coaches so frequently because the upper management refuses to fully invest in the roster, so each regime has the cards stacked against it. Or maybe also because they don't exactly aim high with their coaches and GM hires. So you're suggesting they should've stuck with Jauron? With Levy as GM? Those guys were clowns in their respective roles - they should never have been hired. I'm sorry, but continuity is the least of their problems.

I don't entirely believe that, as the in the Marv Levy as GM period, Marv did try building the O line first thing, and brought in two very expensive O lineman. Which was a brilliant idea IMHO, but he just brought in the wrong players, as it looks like a lot of high priced free agents just work to get paid and then their play falls off.

 

Buddy Nix was able to obtain a 100 million dollar DE. What a spectacular, and resounding splash in the free agent pool that made. Particularly for the Buffalo Bills fans who were frothing to have him signed by the Bills.

 

Tom Donahoe was able to give away the farm in draft picks to obtain QB Drew Bledsoe. Which I also thought was a brilliant move to bolster a position lacking in true talent (Alex Van Pelt was the starter in 2001). Its just that once Donahoe obtained his QB he failed to understand or completely address that QB's shortcomings as to exactly why the Patriots were willing to trade him to a division rival.

 

Bledsoe notably almost always folded under heavy duress, and although Donahoe drafted Mike D Williams from Texas with the first round draft pick at #4 overall to play LT in 2002. That pick just didn't work out so Williams was moved to RT, and then Bledsoe was then told he needs to speed up his release to get the ball out quicker. Why the Bills failed to continue to bolster that O line is beyond my reasoning.

 

Where was the failure in all those regimes? My take is that head scout Tom Modrak was a big part of the problem, as talent evaluation has been very suspect during entire tenure with the Bills.

 

 

When you look at what happened to the entire football side of the franchise after owner Ralph Wilson was finally tired of losing. Wilson then hired Chuck Knox. This 5x division winning with the LA Rams HC was absolutely amazing in every single category that you would want in a HC. Wilson now had his very own Bill Belichick clone in Knox.

 

One of the first things Knox did was to bring LA Rams head scout Norm Pollom with him to Buffalo and revamp the entire Bills scouting dept. Then he went about bringing in some older rah rah guys from the Rams to give some leadership to the locker room. Those players weren't exactly the top players at their positions. What they brought to the table was game experience to teach the younger players what it takes to win games.

 

 

My point here is that not only was the talent lacking the last 14 years, in the players, in the coaches, in the front office, in the scouting dept. It was also that this owner refused to give up his control over the football side of operations like he did with Knox and Donahoe. This owner has a thing for loyalty, and promoting from within the Org, as he seems to only trust people he already knows.

 

What really stinks is, now that finally someone other then Wilson is managing the football side of operations. The new guy in charge is a baseball money / marketing man and not a football man. Not only that, I believe there is an edict set down to keep costs as low as possible in order to keep the franchise financially appealing for the next owner.

 

Bills fans are screwed

[chris heff]

 

 

i'm making no such suggestion regarding Jauron or Marv.

i'm sayign continuity is a problem in part because the Bills haven't gotten it right in the first place going back to January 2006, when the upheavel that followed Donahoe's firing and the directionless approach the team took following that move still resonates to this day.

 

the team finally has a GM in place, someone who has NFL experience as a personnel person. and they have a coach in place, too, who seems to have begun establishing an identity for this franchise. to suggest that last season was an out-and-out failure seems to discount much of the positive that did occur.

this team needs to now build on that. and this is an important year.

 

but i get the sense from some of these posts that there is a growing sentiment among some fans that the Bills should've changed course yet again after another 6-10 season. really?

 

jw

Continuity is the key. Since 1969 the Bills have had 15 head coaches, the Steelers have had 3. The Steelers have 6 Super Bowl wins the Bills have 0. So let's just keep hiring and firing coaches, because it has worked so well in the past.

[YoloinOhio]

Continuity is the key. Since 1969 the Bills have had 15 head coaches, the Steelers have had 3. The Steelers have 6 Super Bowl wins the Bills have 0. So let's just keep hiring and firing coaches, because it has worked so well in the past.

Case in Point: Cleveland Browns. Four out the last five head coaches hired in the AFC North were Browns coaches.

[HankBulloughMellencamp]

How do you know it didn't punish/ultimately help Marcel? Are the fans really punished if, by virtue of this discipline, it makes Marcel a better player and teammate and we end up extending him and he becomes an even better DT for us than he was this year? Wpuld you be OK that he didn't play in the 1st half of a game that, while it means a lot to the fans because it is against the rival, meant nothing in terms of the ultimate goal, making the playoffs? But potentially could be a factor in the Bills making the playoffs in 2014 because sitting him down woke him up (no pun intended)? Or, are you just mad that we gave up a lot of running yards that day?

 

Bingo. I would not have cared one bit if Marrone would have sat Marcel the whole game vs. NE. It is a good thing to show the players that b.s. is just not going to be tolerated. I mean, really now, to be late again the day after you just got served is a borderline insubordinate, brash move. A coach who would have flinched would have undermined their authority and lost a ton of credibility. Sure seems like Belichick might have even IR'd #99.

 

Not stepping up to that nonsense would probably have been quite disappointing to Fred, Kyle, and the other players who already know how to be a pro. Wake up, Marcel. You finally had a good year, made a lot of big plays, and even got some Pro Bowl votes. You're a big boy, now ,,, act like it.

[KOKBILLS]

 

i can resume being an ass if you like, and overlook facts and perspective, though

 

 

Please do...that would be greatly appreciated...

[4merper4mer]

How do you know it didn't punish/ultimately help Marcel? Are the fans really punished if, by virtue of this discipline, it makes Marcel a better player and teammate and we end up extending him and he becomes an even better DT for us than he was this year? Wpuld you be OK that he didn't play in the 1st half of a game that, while it means a lot to the fans because it is against the rival, meant nothing in terms of the ultimate goal, making the playoffs? But potentially could be a factor in the Bills making the playoffs in 2014 because sitting him down woke him up (no pun intended)? Or, are you just mad that we gave up a lot of running yards that day?

 

It had already taken only one day to see that benching Dareus had no impact on him. I guess winning the NE game would not have made too much difference but personally I would have like to have seen them have to go on the road last week if they got by the Chargers or Chiefs.

 

My concerns with Greggo Marrone have to do in large part with inflexibility. He only knows one way to discipline a player? He only knows one ST coach, and a bad one? He only knows one way to coach WRs and has to criticize Hilliard as he boots him out? I am straining to see things that make me believe he can turn things around, but I don't see them. I don't disagree with the people saying consistency is important and that's why hiring the right people in the first place is critical. I didn't say it was easy, just critical.

[thebandit27]

Bingo. I would not have cared one bit if Marrone would have sat Marcel the whole game vs. NE. It is a good thing to show the players that b.s. is just not going to be tolerated. I mean, really now, to be late again the day after you just got served is a borderline insubordinate, brash move. A coach who would have flinched would have undermined their authority and lost a ton of credibility. Sure seems like Belichick might have even IR'd #99.

 

Not stepping up to that nonsense would probably have been quite disappointing to Fred, Kyle, and the other players who already know how to be a pro. Wake up, Marcel. You finally had a good year, made a lot of big plays, and even got some Pro Bowl votes. You're a big boy, now ,,, act like it.

 

Yep...let's also remember that Belichick once benched his best WR for an entire quarter--of a playoff game--for making foot jokes at Rex Ryan's expense.

 

It had already taken only one day to see that benching Dareus had no impact on him. I guess winning the NE game would not have made too much difference but personally I would have like to have seen them have to go on the road last week if they got by the Chargers or Chiefs.

 

My concerns with Greggo Marrone have to do in large part with inflexibility. He only knows one way to discipline a player? He only knows one ST coach, and a bad one? He only knows one way to coach WRs and has to criticize Hilliard as he boots him out? I am straining to see things that make me believe he can turn things around, but I don't see them. I don't disagree with the people saying consistency is important and that's why hiring the right people in the first place is critical. I didn't say it was easy, just critical.

 

I'm not sure if you're being genuine or screwing around here, but this entire paragraph is remarkably two-sided.

[YoloinOhio]

It had already taken only one day to see that benching Dareus had no impact on him. I guess winning the NE game would not have made too much difference but personally I would have like to have seen them have to go on the road last week if they got by the Chargers or Chiefs.

 

My concerns with Greggo Marrone have to do in large part with inflexibility. He only knows one way to discipline a player? He only knows one ST coach, and a bad one? He only knows one way to coach WRs and has to criticize Hilliard as he boots him out? I am straining to see things that make me believe he can turn things around, but I don't see them. I don't disagree with the people saying consistency is important and that's why hiring the right people in the first place is critical. I didn't say it was easy, just critical.

I don't think anyone knows what had already taken place before or after the Marcel benching. We also don't know that he doesn't "know" any other ST coaches, only that thus far he has not chosen to fire his after one year. I don't think he only knows one way to coach WRs... I think he felt he could do better than Hilliard in that role. Just because he used the term "philisophical differences" doesn't mean that was the only reason. It is just the reason he felt best to use to the media. I missed where he criticized him.. what did he say?

[Rob's House]

...

What really stinks is, now that finally someone other then Wilson is managing the football side of operations. The new guy in charge is a baseball money / marketing man and not a football man. Not only that, I believe there is an edict set down to keep costs as low as possible in order to keep the franchise financially appealing for the next owner.

 

Bills fans are screwed

 

I've been pondering this lately. I think that Brandon is trying to build a winner, but I also think he's failing to take Marv's advice and he's listening to the fans. I think if not for concern over public opinion Chan would have finished out his contract this year. They'd probably have brought in a veteran QB or mid round pick to compete with and hopefully unseat Fitz, but I don't think they'd have taken EJ in the 1st. If Chan didn't win after his fourth year they would make the change this year and let the new coach draft his QB in a better draft class. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think rolling that crowd out for one more year was going to be a hard sell with the fanbase.

 

I can't even saying I blame them. As a football fan I would like them to be in the football business, but in reality they are in the entertainment business and have to be careful alienating their fanbase. I would argue that consistently bad football will ultimately alienate the fanbase, but my opinion is biased because I'm just a fan who only cares about seeing the team win.

 

I should point out the silver lining - Even though we went QB in a worse draft class it's looking like we took HC in a better year and probably wouldn't have gotten Pettine at DC w/o Marrone.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Rob's House

[Coach Tuesday]

i'm making no such suggestion regarding Jauron or Marv.

i'm sayign continuity is a problem in part because the Bills haven't gotten it right in the first place going back to January 2006, when the upheavel that followed Donahoe's firing and the directionless approach the team took following that move still resonates to this day.

 

the team finally has a GM in place, someone who has NFL experience as a personnel person. and they have a coach in place, too, who seems to have begun establishing an identity for this franchise. to suggest that last season was an out-and-out failure seems to discount much of the positive that did occur.

this team needs to now build on that. and this is an important year.

 

but i get the sense from some of these posts that there is a growing sentiment among some fans that the Bills should've changed course yet again after another 6-10 season. really?

 

jw

 

I think you're missing what I'm saying, or it's quite possible that I'm not saying it clearly. I DO think they should change course yet again after another 6-10 season. Not by dismissing Marrone or Whaley, but by finally, fully, investing in their roster. They need to give Marrone the tools to be successful. And I agree that the Byrd situation will be the "canary in the coal mine" (pun intended). If they're serious about building a winner and competing for the playoffs next year, they simply can't let one of their few star players walk.

[BADOLBILZ]

you continue with the assumption that all or many of these returning players were stud, Pro Bowlers, future hall of famers off a team that finished 6-10, no less.

 

-- there were concerns across the o-line entering the season particularly at right guard and with the loss of Andy Levitre. a replacement for Levitre has not yet been found.

 

-- while RB was the team's strength entering the season, and continued to be through the season, the anticipation was it was going to take time to adapt the offense to Marrone/Hackett's scheme.

 

-- oh, and i see you fail to mention a new quarterback. how convenient. you make it seem as if the introduction of a rookie quarterback is akin to adding a new long-snapper on special teams. this is clearly where your case begins to unravel.

 

-- Scott Chandler was coming off a serious injury and his practice time limited in training camp and his playing time also limited early in the season. as for this "other" or "second" top TE, to what reincarnation of Tony Gonzalez do you speak of?

 

-- why do you go on about these receivers, as if they were a strength coming into the season. this was a position in transition, with two raw newcomers added to the mix. jeepers, you seem to make this receiving group out to be 2000 Rams or this season's Broncos. puh-leeze.

-- yadda, yadda, yadda about the defense returning mostly in tact. 1) it didn't. 2) S Jairus Byrd wasn't ready. 3) McKelvin wasn't a full-time starter last season. 4) Aaron Williams was switching position. 5) have you heard of this fellow Kiko? 6) Manny Lawson. 7) Carrington was getting an increased role. 8) Mario Williams was playing a different role. 9) the defensive scheme certainly didn't return intact.

 

you seem to boost your case to meet your over-valued expecations in believing this team was some sort of bona fide contender. it wasn't.

 

jw

 

 

John, the point is that the roster wasn't overhauled from top to bottom.

 

I didn't ignore the QB'ing...........my point was that QB was the ONLY legitimate excuse for the Bills not being a playoff team...........but let's face it, the QB'ing only declined from about 25th to 30th. Meanwhile, the defense impoved by leaps and bounds.

 

Net result, still 6-10.

 

Opportunity knocked often for this Bills team but despite some fortuitous breaks in the schedule they were unable to capitalize..... very much on the strength of some shaky coaching decisions.

 

Like allowing an UDFA rookie QB to be able to audible from a run play to pass play at the goal line in the Chiefs game. Manuel was allowed to do the same thing in Pittsburgh, resulting in one of the worst fade passes ever thrown in the NFL...a field goal and a huge opportunity to seize a floundering Steelers team that came out flat by the throat was lost.

 

You can't play "coddle the rookie" with your play calling all day and then allow that rookie to undo all of your work by letting him try to be Peyton Manning at the goal line.

 

Obviously.......the special teams had a heavy hand in losses to Cleveland and Cinci. IMO, the early failures took their toll and the team as a whole began giving intermittent effort after the KC game. That is also on the coaching staff. Like I said, I am willing to cut a young coach like Hackett some slack.....but Crossman is a proven dog. Bringing him back also brings back a lack of confidence in his ability from the returning players, IMO. He's a proven failure and players will not get 100% behind that kind of coach.

Edited January 16, 2014 by BADOLBEELZ

[BADOLBILZ]

I think you're missing what I'm saying, or it's quite possible that I'm not saying it clearly. I DO think they should change course yet again after another 6-10 season. Not by dismissing Marrone or Whaley, but by finally, fully, investing in their roster. They need to give Marrone the tools to be successful. And I agree that the Byrd situation will be the "canary in the coal mine" (pun intended). If they're serious about building a winner and competing for the playoffs next year, they simply can't let one of their few star players walk.

 

I completely agree with the Bills undermining their coaching staffs by not investing more thoroughly in their roster.

 

It is well documented that you don't HAVE to spend to the cap to win in the NFL.

 

But when you hire coaches like Jauron and Gailey.......cold product.......and bring them into a culture of failure without players familiar with winning in the NFL you can't expect to play it cheap and win.

 

The Bills CONTINUALLY show a lack of urgency with regard to helping new coaches get off on the right foot.

 

And when that coach has no track record or a bad track record at the NFL level.......there really is no time to lose when it comes to player confidence.

 

Contrary to the narrative by John that the Bills made a massive roster overhaul......they essentially only added Kolb, Lawson, Branch and Hughes in free agency and drafted some new players.

 

They got excellent mileage out of the defensive free agents and Kiko Alonso......and shed two better NFL QB's than Kolb, their very good LG, a productive young WR in Nelson and a veteran leader in George Wilson.

 

In truth, it was a pretty passive attempt at improvement.

Edited January 16, 2014 by BADOLBEELZ

[Beerball]

we shall see. this is a critical offseason when it comes to building on what the Bills established last year.

 

it was encouraging last year to see the Bills stock up on DL, per Pettine's wishes. and the red flag that went up with Mark Anderson's abrupt cut proved to be a false alarm given how the line came together, and the under-rated addition of Alan Branch. i thought that was a smart move.

 

what was also encouraging is how Whaley did much from a losing hand in adding one of the most qualified backup QB any team acquired after Week 3 of the preseason. Thad Lewis outshone many, including Freeman in Minnesota. of course, a case could be made that they over-estimated on Kolb, but that's another story.

 

i see analytics as already playing an influence on the Bills personnel decisions. i think Branch was one example.

 

we'll see how they proceed. and i think the first step in regards to who is in charge starts with Byrd's status.

 

i said it last summer that the Bills decision to hold firm on Byrd hurt them as much as it did the player. today, it might be hurting them even more. i don't see Byrd blinking, will the Bills?

 

jw

My God, I had forgotten all about Anderson. I checked his stats and it doesn't like he got picked up at any point in the season.

[Delete This Account]

John, the point is that the roster wasn't overhauled from top to bottom.

 

I didn't ignore the QB'ing...........my point was that QB was the ONLY legitimate excuse for the Bills not being a playoff team...........but let's face it, the QB'ing only declined from about 25th to 30th. Meanwhile, the defense impoved by leaps and bounds.

 

Net result, still 6-10.

 

Opportunity knocked often for this Bills team but despite some fortuitous breaks in the schedule they were unable to capitalize..... very much on the strength of some shaky coaching decisions.

 

Like allowing an UDFA rookie QB to be able to audible from a run play to pass play at the goal line in the Chiefs game. Manuel was allowed to do the same thing in Pittsburgh, resulting in one of the worst fade passes ever thrown in the NFL...a field goal and a huge opportunity to seize a floundering Steelers team that came out flat by the throat was lost.

 

You can't play "coddle the rookie" with your play calling all day and then allow that rookie to undo all of your work by letting him try to be Peyton Manning at the goal line.

 

Obviously.......the special teams had a heavy hand in losses to Cleveland and Cinci. IMO, the early failures took their toll and the team as a whole began giving intermittent effort after the KC game. That is also on the coaching staff. Like I said, I am willing to cut a young coach like Hackett some slack.....but Crossman is a proven dog. Bringing him back also brings back a lack of confidence in his ability from the returning players, IMO. He's a proven failure and players will not get 100% behind that kind of coach.

 

the top-to-bottom overhaul was organizational from top to bottom.

 

new president.

new gm

new personnel people.

new coach.

new coaching staff.

new quarterback.

 

right down to the kicker and punter.

 

to expect immediate success following this type of offseason is asking too much.

 

it wasn't just special teams.

it wasn't just the quarterback, though the inconsistency at that position played a larger role in the team's record than anything else.

it wasn't just coaching

it was a lot of things that come with a team with so many new moving parts.

 

ignore the changes that took place as much as you want. very few teams that undergo these types of overhauls with raw newcomers in so many spots have a chance to succeed.

these weren't the chiefs, where Andy Reid was a proven coach and brought in a proven quarterback and already had the foundation of a solid defense.

McCoy got the most out of the Chargers, though it helped to have a proven quarterback in Rivers.

Arians got even more out of the Cardinals, though it helped he had a veteran quarterback, an elite receiver and a solid defense. even then, that wasn't enough to get them in the playoffs.

 

by comparison:

what did Gus do in Jax? not much, given the number of changes there.

what did Chudz do in Cleveland? he got fired in part because of organizational ineptitude.

Trestman couldn't even get the Bears to the playoffs, because the team unraveled under injuries and too many changes on defense.

and then there was Marrone, who won some close ones, lost some close ones, but got a better grasp on figuring out what the core and identity of his team will resemble, and laid the groundwork for that core in moving forward.

 

the Bills played to expectations.

the expectations are higher next season.

 

jw

Edited January 16, 2014 by john wawrow

[BillsVet]

the top-to-bottom overhaul was organizational from top to bottom.

 

new president.

new gm

new personnel people.

new coach.

new coaching staff.

new quarterback.

 

The new president was the previous CEO and has been around for years in senior management positions.

The new GM was the previous assistant GM and with the team since 2010.

New personnel people came in after the draft, including Monos.

New Coach. Yes, Chan needed to go and thus we needed another one. The previous hire, as with DJ, necessitated the following one.

New coaching staff. It's already getting changed around and could be more before the season if Pettine leaves.

New quarterback. Yep.

 

But yes, I'd agree that 2014 needs to be playoffs or bust. Nothing less is acceptable, though I'm not sure the Bills are in it to win it as much as most of the NFL.

[Coach Tuesday]

the expectations are higher next season.

 

So that's my question (not to you - just generally) - is the Bills' upper-management going to approach this offseason as though it's playoffs or bust next season? And will the media and fans hold them accountable if they don't?

[thebandit27]

The new president was the previous CEO and has been around for years in senior management positions.

The new GM was the previous assistant GM and with the team since 2010.

New personnel people came in after the draft, including Monos.

New Coach. Yes, Chan needed to go and thus we needed another one. The previous hire, as with DJ, necessitated the following one.

New coaching staff. It's already getting changed around and could be more before the season if Pettine leaves.

New quarterback. Yep.

 

But yes, I'd agree that 2014 needs to be playoffs or bust. Nothing less is acceptable, though I'm not sure the Bills are in it to win it as much as most of the NFL.

 

I'm always curious what makes people say this?

 

So that's my question (not to you - just generally) - is the Bills' upper-management going to approach this offseason as though it's playoffs or bust next season? And will the media and fans hold them accountable if they don't?

 

Yes, I don't know, and yes.

[CodeMonkey]

So that's my question (not to you - just generally) - is the Bills' upper-management going to approach this offseason as though it's playoffs or bust next season? And will the media and fans hold them accountable if they don't?

As always, some of the fans will hold the team accountable. But the hard core will continue to buy seasons and merchandise just as they have the last 14 years. They don't ever treat it as playoffs or bust.

 

The local media seems similar to me. They won't go any harder at Marrone than this year, even if there is a slow start. The national media will have Marrone on a "death watch" if there is no improvement this season, but playoffs or bust mentality from them I doubt.

 

Upper management, who knows. Their job, in my opinion, is to do what all good managers do. That is, create an environment where the people under them can thrive. Certainly they will be busy trying to boost ticket sales. As to anything else, we will see.