Disapointed with Marrone

[Rob's House]

Should Bills fans casually dismiss this HC of his accountability for his errors like most did with Chan Gailey in his first year?

 

Generally I would say yes, but with reservations.

 

The HC is usually given a pass for the first season and for good reason. When you come in year one you're somewhat stuck with what you've inherited, you've got to teach the whole team your system from scratch, have to evaluate how the players respond to you and how they fit into your schemes, etc., etc.

 

That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with fans questioning the moves he makes, and I don't get why some fans feel the need to vehemently defend his every move like he's their dad. And while I don't think we should hold him all that accountable for a losing record (for the aforementioned resaons) it's certainly acceptable to hold him accountable for his decision making. As I've said in previous threads. If he leads this team to the playoffs he'll become a hero and retroactively get the benefit of the doubt on most everything he's done, and then the joke's on his critics. If not, well, then he'll just go down as a doofy idiot with a doofy idiot haircut who made idiotic decisions. It'll all come out in the wash.

[Delete This Account]

BTW, John.

 

My specific objection to Marrone's year-end explanation of the special teams play was not that he blamed the players or that he was inaccurate about not having a core of special teamers.

 

My objection is that he is the one who assembled the roster.

 

My immediate thought when I heard his excuse was "how long does it take to assemble a core of special teamers?"

 

I also mentally rewound through the Bills career of of Corey McIntyre who was a premier special teamer and I wondered why Marrone chose to let him go when fullback has remained an afterthought in his offense.

 

Chris White was also an outstanding special teams player who the team traded away because they didn't properly address the QB situation.

 

As I stated when Crossman was hired, the success or failure of special teams is often dictated by the head coach in terms of how many starters he allows to play them, how much oversight he exercises, and how much practice time he allots.

 

Any way you cut it up, Crossman's failure is Marrone's failure.

 

you make good points. and i'm not defending Crossman entirely. the questions are merited.

 

however, there is no point at this time to make a change after only one season. last year was a rebuilding year in which many needs required addressing, and new, young players needed to be brought in. that process in itself limits what teams can do to fill their special teams roster, which essentially becomes a bit of an afterthought when it comes to addressing more pressing needs on offense and special teams.

 

it takes years to fill special teams with "core" players under a new coach, and not just one year.

 

had Marrone spent the offseason dedicating players to special teams, then he would be open to criticism as to why he didn't address other needs on defense or offense.

 

it's a bit of a no-win, here. there was no sober expectation that the Bills would be competitive this season. and to suggest special teams was the only weak spot and/or the reason for the Bills 6-10 finish is not at all valid.

there remain numerous holes to fill at numerous positions after several holes were filled this past year.

 

Marrone should now have a better grasp of what he needs to continue building a contender this offseason. and Crossman et al will now have more time to develop the players he believes will form his core. if he fails next year, then it becomes a real issue. for now, he deserves to get a slight pass.

 

jw

[thebandit27]

you make good points. and i'm not defending Crossman entirely. the questions are merited.

 

however, there is no point at this time to make a change after only one season. last year was a rebuilding year in which many needs required addressing, and new, young players needed to be brought in. that process in itself limits what teams can do to fill their special teams roster, which essentially becomes a bit of an afterthought when it comes to addressing more pressing needs on offense and special teams.

 

it takes years to fill special teams with "core" players under a new coach, and not just one year.

 

had Marrone spent the offseason dedicating players to special teams, then he would be open to criticism as to why he didn't address other needs on defense or offense.

 

it's a bit of a no-win, here. there was no sober expectation that the Bills would be competitive this season. and to suggest special teams was the only weak spot and/or the reason for the Bills 6-10 finish is not at all valid.

there remain numerous holes to fill at numerous positions after several holes were filled this past year.

 

Marrone should now have a better grasp of what he needs to continue building a contender this offseason. and Crossman et al will now have more time to develop the players he believes will form his core. if he fails next year, then it becomes a real issue. for now, he deserves to get a slight pass.

 

jw

 

I feel like I've been saying the exact same thing for a week...it'll be interesting to see if your opinion is greeted with the same vitriol as mine was...

[Delete This Account]

I feel like I've been saying the exact same thing for a week...it'll be interesting to see if your opinion is greeted with the same vitriol as mine was...

 

sure am braced for it. though i'd like to think we can have a calm discussion regarding this without digressing into the usual knee jerkiness that happens with these threads.

i respect what SJ Bills Fan posted, which is why i responded to it.

i'm sure some might disagree with what i wrote. hopefully, they can provide some actual points rather than throw hissy fits of outrage.

 

jw

Edited January 10, 2014 by john wawrow

[thebandit27]

sure am braced for it. though i'd like to think we can have a calm discussion regarding this without digressing into the usual knee jerkiness that happens with these threads.

i respect what SJ Bills Fan posted, which is why i responded to it.

i'm sure some might disagree with what i wrote. hopefully, they can provide some actual points rather than throw hissy fits of outrage.

 

jw

 

You're safe with San Jose--very insightful guy that's always level-headed in these discussions.

 

If you really want to spin your top though, go to the "Crossman Retained" megathread and post what you just did!

[Delete This Account]

You're safe with San Jose--very insightful guy that's always level-headed in these discussions.

 

If you really want to spin your top though, go to the "Crossman Retained" megathread and post what you just did!

 

done and done.

 

jw

[CodeMonkey]

it's a bit of a no-win, here. there was no sober expectation that the Bills would be competitive this season. and to suggest special teams was the only weak spot and/or the reason for the Bills 6-10 finish is not at all valid.

there remain numerous holes to fill at numerous positions after several holes were filled this past year.

I believe this to be the cause of a lot of the angst in general. Many thought, and still think, the 2013 Bills had enough talent to make the playoffs, or at the very least achieve the elusive 8-8 mark.

Edited January 10, 2014 by CodeMonkey

[San-O]

I believe this to be the cause of a lot of the angst in general. Many thought, and still think, the 2013 Bills had enough talent to make the playoffs, or at the very least achieve the elusive 8-8 mark.

 

I'm really trying to understand the ST issue, and be respectful.

 

 

o Coach Marrone hires his friend and ST coach, then says it's the players fault for bad ST performance.

 

o I am hearing the players aren't there for the ST unit this year, however the ST unit ranked # 8 approx. last year.

 

o Also, that the roster underwent changes due to the 1st year coach rebuild.

 

o And from the Bills CEO Russ Brandon that the team has much more talent this year (2013) than when Nix took over.

 

o And that the roster needed to be purged of ST players from last year to make room for new players which led to a 30th ranked ST unit?

 

 

So, someone is very wrong here because all these things can't be true.

 

I realize there's no 1 answer, but who or what is most likely correct? Because apparently it's not Crossman's fault?

 

 

[littlelouie]

I totally agree with the posters that think Crossman should be fired. But I would also send the offensive line coach with him. When they got rid of Joe D from Chan's staff that was a HUGE mistake. They should have retained him. Our line was TWICE as good when Joe D was here. If I were Marrone I would give pink slips to Crossman, Hackett, and the Offensive line coach. I can't believe there aren't more posters complaining about Hackett, he really stunk up the joint. His play calling was bush league. Every 1st down call was the same, handoff up the middle.

[San-O]

I totally agree with the posters that think Crossman should be fired. But I would also send the offensive line coach with him. When they got rid of Joe D from Chan's staff that was a HUGE mistake. They should have retained him. Our line was TWICE as good when Joe D was here. If I were Marrone I would give pink slips to Crossman, Hackett, and the Offensive line coach. I can't believe there aren't more posters complaining about Hackett, he really stunk up the joint. His play calling was bush league. Every 1st down call was the same, handoff up the middle.

 

True. Found a site that has running plays and play called direction per area of line: Buffalo was faar and away the most predictable

with more plays up the middle than any other team in the league.

 

I will try and find again.

[CodeMonkey]

I'm really trying to understand the ST issue, and be respectful.

 

 

o Coach Marrone hires his friend and ST coach, then says it's the players fault for bad ST performance.

 

o I am hearing the players aren't there for the ST unit this year, however the ST unit ranked # 8 approx. last year.

 

o Also, that the roster underwent changes due to the 1st year coach rebuild.

 

o And from the Bills CEO Russ Brandon that the team has much more talent this year (2013) than when Nix took over.

 

o And that the roster needed to be purged of ST players from last year to make room for new players which led to a 30th ranked ST unit?

 

 

So, someone is very wrong here because all these things can't be true.

 

I realize there's no 1 answer, but who or what is most likely correct? Because apparently it's not Crossman's fault?

 

 

I believe they are all of these factored in.

Edited January 12, 2014 by CodeMonkey

[San-O]

I believe they are all of these factored in.

 

I was just reading post again.

 

The two below are simply facts, so how can these be wrong?

 

 

o Coach Marrone hires his friend and ST coach, then says it's the players fault for bad ST performance.

 

o And from the Bills CEO Russ Brandon that the team has much more talent this year (2013) than when Nix took over.

[CodeMonkey]

The two below are simply facts, so how can these be wrong?

 

o Coach Marrone hires his friend and ST coach, then says it's the players fault for bad ST performance.

Marrone is covering for his friend, and/or somehow still believes he is a good ST coach (which is a scary thought). I believe this is clear for reasons stated earlier in this thread.

 

o And from the Bills CEO Russ Brandon that the team has much more talent this year (2013) than when Nix took over.

"much more" is subjective. But I do believe the Bills were more talented this year than in years past. But the Bills had sucked for the previous 13 seasons. That is a very long time. Being more talented in that case simply means they still sucked, but they sucked less than they had previously. Couple that with a rookie QB who is a project, rookie coaches that the jury is very much still out on, so anyone that thought the Bills were going to be challenging for the playoffs this year were viewing the Bills through red and blue colored glasses in my opinion. My opinion from the beginning of the season was that 8-8 would have been a very successful season.

 

I will state now though that next season should end above .500 with Marrone and Manuel both showing substantial improvement or I will be one of the people looking to make changes ... again.

Edited January 12, 2014 by CodeMonkey

[San-O]

Marrone is covering for his friend, and/or somehow still believes he is a good ST coach (which is a scary thought). I believe this is clear for reasons stated earlier in this thread.

 

 

"much more" is subjective. But I do believe the Bills were more talented this year than in years past. But the Bills had sucked for the previous 13 seasons. That is a very long time. Being more talented in that case simply means they still sucked, but they sucked less than they had previously. Couple that with a rookie QB who is a project, rookie coaches that the jury is very much still out on, so anyone that thought the Bills were going to be challenging for the playoffs this year were viewing the Bills through red and blue colored glasses in my opinion. My opinion from the beginning of the season was that 8-8 would have been a very successful season.

 

I will state now though that next season should end above .500 with Marrone and Manuel both showing substantial improvement or I will be one of the people looking to make changes ... again.

 

RIght, understand.

 

It's just getting kind of sad when you see so many subpar coaches come through here that you can almost pick out their

weakness or flaw after the first season.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

Fan patience with coaching staff= playoffs.

[CodeMonkey]

Fan patience with coaching staff= playoffs.

Interesting take. By that reasoning the Bills should have kept Gailey, Jauron etc.

[offyourocker]

Fan patience with coaching staff= playoffs.

 

I would prefer a KC type turnaround.

[4merper4mer]

Interesting take. By that reasoning the Bills should have kept Gailey, Jauron etc.

 

True, but when we hired Greggo Marrone it gave us a second chance to be patient with Greggo.

[BADOLBILZ]

you make good points. and i'm not defending Crossman entirely. the questions are merited.

 

however, there is no point at this time to make a change after only one season. last year was a rebuilding year in which many needs required addressing, and new, young players needed to be brought in. that process in itself limits what teams can do to fill their special teams roster, which essentially becomes a bit of an afterthought when it comes to addressing more pressing needs on offense and special teams.

 

it takes years to fill special teams with "core" players under a new coach, and not just one year.

 

had Marrone spent the offseason dedicating players to special teams, then he would be open to criticism as to why he didn't address other needs on defense or offense.

 

it's a bit of a no-win, here. there was no sober expectation that the Bills would be competitive this season. and to suggest special teams was the only weak spot and/or the reason for the Bills 6-10 finish is not at all valid.

there remain numerous holes to fill at numerous positions after several holes were filled this past year.

 

Marrone should now have a better grasp of what he needs to continue building a contender this offseason. and Crossman et al will now have more time to develop the players he believes will form his core. if he fails next year, then it becomes a real issue. for now, he deserves to get a slight pass.

 

jw

 

Disagree with your take on how ready the Bills were to be competitive and that it takes years to build core special teamers.

 

Marrone didn't start from scratch. He and Crossman inherited some good special teams players from a pretty good unit that was left behind. On the surface, he probably kept more guys who on-paper would seem to be special teamers than previous Bills teams.

 

Crossman is not pretty good though. His units have been consistently bad. Coaching special teams isn't about reminding players to stay in their lanes, there is a strategic element to it that Crossman has shown little feel for.

 

If you mean by "sober expectation" that people thought very little of Marrone's ability to do what so many rookie HC's have done in recent years........improve the record of their team.....then that is a pretty cynical take.

 

As much as starting over causes growing pains there are advantages to being *new* in a information saturated league.

 

We saw this early as teams tentatively attacked EJ Manuel.........later in the season we began to see teams attacking weaknesses they had picked up on tape.

 

Point being.......this wasn't just a developmental season, there was ample opportunity for this team to win 9 games this season.

 

The pressure is certainly on now though, that is for certain.

[Delete This Account]

 

If you mean by "sober expectation" that people thought very little of Marrone's ability to do what so many rookie HC's have done in recent years........improve the record of their team.....then that is a pretty cynical take.

 

Point being.......this wasn't just a developmental season, there was ample opportunity for this team to win 9 games this season.

 

 

that's not what i meant. i meant i expected the team to finish 6-10. and they did. they met my expectations, and were better than many in the business who had them at 4 wins.

 

and who of these rookie HCs do you speak of that have done such a good job.

for as many Harbaughs as there are that succeed, there are just as many Chudz's in the NFL.

 

much of their success depends on whether they have a bona fide starter at QB -- the Colts had Luck, the Bills did not.

have one unit, usually a defense, that plays lights out -- Carroll did in Seattle, Arians did in Arizona, the Bills did not because they were still putting together the pieces.

much of it also relies on stablity at the GM position -- the Ravens and 49ers had that, the Bills have not.

 

there was transformational change that took place with the Bills this offseason, much like the changes that took place in Gregg Williams' first year. and it was no surprise that the Bills struggled in 2001, just as it wasn't a surprise that they were a much better team in Mularkey's first year in 2004 because much of the foundation was already put in place.

 

that was not present heading into this season. the Bills purged far too many players.

 

not sure if "ample" opportunity to win 9 was there.

 

jw