Doc Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 It's funny you would hang your argument on that stat--EJ had 2 yards more per game than Wilson did. And it took him far more passes per game to get those yards. His YPA was under 6.5 whereas Wilson's was almost 8. Yes that whopping 1.5 yards per pass is the difference. And it shows that the running game and a defense that could limit opposing offenses to 15.3 PPG, carried most of the load. Nevermind the injuries and that EJ had a rookie head coach and OC,who also doubled as the (rookie) QB coach.
FireChan Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Yes that whopping 1.5 yards per pass is the difference. And it shows that the running game and a defense that could limit opposing offenses to 15.3 PPG, carried most of the load. Nevermind the injuries and that EJ had a rookie head coach and OC,who also doubled as the (rookie) QB coach. Are you kidding? Don't even start saying YPA is crap. You will get eaten alive. I don't know if I agree with that. But you're not the only person to make that comment so maybe it's me. Have you watched Kaep/Wilson/Smith/Luck/Thad run? They dodge contact and accelerate early. Get a quick 5-10 and slide. EJ seems to lack that acceleration and dancing ability in the NFL. It may be injuries, but watching the plays side to side, it's clear EJ is less agile than those I listed.
Doc Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Are you kidding? Don't even start saying YPA is crap. You will get eaten alive. Never said it was crap.
FireChan Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Never said it was crap. 1.5 YPA is a massive difference, especially over the course of a season. By disregarding that, you are disregarding the entire stat.
Mr. WEO Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) Yes that whopping 1.5 yards per pass is the difference. And it shows that the running game and a defense that could limit opposing offenses to 15.3 PPG, carried most of the load. Nevermind the injuries and that EJ had a rookie head coach and OC,who also doubled as the (rookie) QB coach. 1.5 is a whopping difference---in YPA. In yards per game, not so much. Anyway, The Bills had a better running game than Seattle so why bring that nugget up? And Wilson was able to survive the physical strains of the preseason and the regular season. It's on EJ if he can't answer the bell three times in one season. Edited January 6, 2014 by Mr. WEO
San Jose Bills Fan Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Have you watched Kaep/Wilson/Smith/Luck/Thad run? They dodge contact and accelerate early. Get a quick 5-10 and slide. EJ seems to lack that acceleration and dancing ability in the NFL. It may be injuries, but watching the plays side to side, it's clear EJ is less agile than those I listed. You should watch the Clemson-Florida State game from last year. EJ looked like as good a running QB as I've ever seen in that game. Quick, fast, explosive, decisive, instinctive. http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=322660052 12 carries, 102 yards with a long run of 28 yards.
Mr. WEO Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 You should watch the Clemson-Florida State game from last year. EJ looked like as good a running QB as I've ever seen in that game. Quick, fast, explosive, decisive, instinctive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4ZQHHkPBBE http://scores.espn.g...ameId=322660052 12 carries, 102 yards with a long run of 28 yards. Well, what happened to that guy? Quick and fast? 186 yards rushing---all year. That's Brady-like rushing.
RuntheDamnBall Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Well, what happened to that guy? Quick and fast? 186 yards rushing---all year. That's Brady-like rushing. Gee, I dunno, multiple knee injuries?
FireChan Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 You should watch the Clemson-Florida State game from last year. EJ looked like as good a running QB as I've ever seen in that game. Quick, fast, explosive, decisive, instinctive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4ZQHHkPBBE http://scores.espn.g...ameId=322660052 12 carries, 102 yards with a long run of 28 yards. Wow night and day to what he looks like now.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Well, what happened to that guy? Quick and fast? 186 yards rushing---all year. That's Brady-like rushing. Uh, 3 knee injuries including one in the preseason? The fact that he wore knee braces for a few games?
Mr. WEO Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) Gee, I dunno, multiple knee injuries? Yeah, well. This guy was brought in because of his size and his speed. Yet he gets injured in pre season and then again during the season. Look at a big fast QB like Kaep on your TV now. Gotta be a lot more durable if EJ wants to play like that. And I doubt the knee brace has affected his decisiveness Edited January 6, 2014 by Mr. WEO
Doc Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 1.5 is a whopping difference---in YPC. In yards per game, not so much. YPA means something, but in the context of having 1.5 YPA more in the context of throwing for fewer YPG, what does it really mean? Anyway, The Bills had a better running game than Seattle so why bring that nugget up? The Seahawks had 250 yards and 0.6 YPR more in 2012 than the Bills did this past year. And again, the defense was the best in football and kept giving the offense back the ball, allowing the rushing attack to wear down opposing defenses. And Wilson was able to survive the physical strains of the preseason and the regular season. It's on EJ if he can't answer the bell three times in one season. The injuries are a concern. But it's far too early to say he's injury-prone. Basically any talk of EJ not being the answer right now are silly. Would I take Wilson over him? Sure. But I'd also rather have his team.
Mr. WEO Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 YPA means something, but in the context of having 1.5 YPA more in the context of throwing for fewer YPG, what does it really mean? The Seahawks had 250 yards and 0.6 YPR more in 2012 than the Bills did this past year. And again, the defense was the best in football and kept giving the offense back the ball, allowing the rushing attack to wear down opposing defenses. The injuries are a concern. But it's far too early to say he's injury-prone. Basically any talk of EJ not being the answer right now are silly. Would I take Wilson over him? Sure. But I'd also rather have his team. It means Wilson's more accurate and completes longer passes. The rushing game of the Bills couldn't wear down defenses? Why not? We would all rather have Wilson's team. But I would settle for his HC
RuntheDamnBall Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 It means Wilson's more accurate and completes longer passes. The rushing game of the Bills couldn't wear down defenses? Why not? We would all rather have Wilson's team. But I would settle for his HC No doubt. Wilson came in a more complete QB. This can't be discounted. I think as far as the running game goes, CJ had his own injury battles, and we can all argue about the effectiveness of situational play-calling in run situations. In an RBBC scenario you really need to give the RBs carries. In some of these losses we're seeing FJax with 7, CJ with 5. Sure didn't seem like they were effectively relying on the running game at some points. You can say that defenses were stacking the box and daring EJ to beat them. You might be right. It just didn't all come together this year, for myriad small reasons. There's temptation to make EJ the one big reason, but then you can identify moments like the two ATL game fumbles, other drops, run-D miscues, Dareus' bad habits, etc and you realize that it was a team-wide effort that wasn't good enough.
LB3 Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 No doubt. Wilson came in a more complete QB. This can't be discounted. I think as far as the running game goes, CJ had his own injury battles, and we can all argue about the effectiveness of situational play-calling in run situations. In an RBBC scenario you really need to give the RBs carries. In some of these losses we're seeing FJax with 7, CJ with 5. Sure didn't seem like they were effectively relying on the running game at some points. You can say that defenses were stacking the box and daring EJ to beat them. You might be right. It just didn't all come together this year, for myriad small reasons. There's temptation to make EJ the one big reason, but then you can identify moments like the two ATL game fumbles, other drops, run-D miscues, Dareus' bad habits, etc and you realize that it was a team-wide effort that wasn't good enough. Well said.
Mr. WEO Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 No doubt. Wilson came in a more complete QB. This can't be discounted. I think as far as the running game goes, CJ had his own injury battles, and we can all argue about the effectiveness of situational play-calling in run situations. In an RBBC scenario you really need to give the RBs carries. In some of these losses we're seeing FJax with 7, CJ with 5. Sure didn't seem like they were effectively relying on the running game at some points. You can say that defenses were stacking the box and daring EJ to beat them. You might be right. It just didn't all come together this year, for myriad small reasons. There's temptation to make EJ the one big reason, but then you can identify moments like the two ATL game fumbles, other drops, run-D miscues, Dareus' bad habits, etc and you realize that it was a team-wide effort that wasn't good enough. I agree it was a team effort leading to this record. Also substandard coaching, yet again. Wilson did come in far more polished, which was my contention all along, despite others' efforts to the contrary. EJ may have had a few flashes (I wouldn't use brilliance as the descriptor), but he ended the season with at least as many questions as he came in with, plus significant durability issues. He wasn't drafted to be a drop back pocket passer--he was picked because of his assumed mobility.
MDH Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Wilson came in a more complete QB. This can't be discounted. He was the more complete QB but even still, his numbers from the first half of last year don't look that much better than EJ's. First 8 games of 2012 Comp: 61.4% YPA: 6.98 RAT: 82.3 So even he struggled a bit to find his footing and that's without missing half of the preseason and parts of the regular season with injuries. And just like EJ he had some clunkers, games where his rating was in the 30s and 40s. It's in the 2nd half of the year where Wilson's performance took off and we started to see how special he could be. If people want to see what cherry picking stats can do for you take a look at EJ's numbers through 8 games: Comp: 58.2% YPA: 6.79 RAT: 84.2
LancasterSteve Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Actually, I am still trying to figure out what happened with that pick. If they thought that Manuel was a franchise qb, trading down was a huge risk, UNLESS they had another qb with a similar rating. As I remember didn't Buddy Nix say he wanted to have a franchise QB in place before he retired? I don't believe it was a big risk at all in waiting to draft EJ Manuel. Many had him as a 2nd or 3rd round pick. Haven't dug out my draft guides but a quick search on The Sporting News produced this : http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/draft/2013/round/1/pick/16 " As a two- to three-year project with excellent physical tools, Manuel is a respectable third-round prospect. " Most quarterbacks are way overdrafted. Its the nature of the Draft Beast. Did Buddy Nix force the issue ? Maybe, but it is just too early to know for certain one way or the other with Manuel. I have read like many others here that EJ Manuel is smart and that he has the size. Trent Edwards had the arm, size and supposed smarts but joined the long list of duds as a quarterback of the Buffalo Bills. I expect Doug Whaley to stick with EJ Manuel for at least the next two years unless he plays himself right out of being thought of as a NFL starting quarterback this coming season. In my opinion I doubt Doug Whaley will draft another quarterback before the fourth round. I can see Whaley being agressive in FA for a back-up QB with the understanding in private with said quarterback IS TO BACK-UP EJ Manuel and in public espousing the benefits of a quarterback competition and ya-da ya-da ya-da with the coach-speak and outright disingenuous verbiage that comes out of the mouths of General Managers in the National Football League. The Bills have this down to perfection so anything said about players or positions before the draft or for that matter before the first game in September is just words, blowing in the wind.
JESSEFEFFER Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 He just may be Todd Marinovich 2.0. No thank you. Unaware and indecisive is no way to succeed at QB in the NFL. That's how EJ appeared to me at his worst moments but that's how rookies play when they are trying to be careful with the ball. The sideline hit he took in Cleveland was the worst of it. He never saw that guy coming or maybe assumed he'd make the tackle higher. Those extra four yards he gained beyond the first down was not worth the 4+ games he lost. He's lucky it wasn't a total blowout. Like the Gronkowski hit, human knees are not engineered to withstand such forces. I hope he learned something. He's got the tools, smarts and coachability so I am pretty certain he'll be better next year. Then we can debate whether he showed enough improvement to keep the job in his 3rd year.
Doc Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 It means Wilson's more accurate and completes longer passes. The rushing game of the Bills couldn't wear down defenses? Why not? Why not? Not sure, but it didn't. As for accuracy and completing longer passes, I'd say Wilson is better, but the receivers have a lot to do with that. Just look at Brady's stats this year compared to the previous 6 years. We would all rather have Wilson's team. But I would settle for his HC Carroll was a washout with the Jets and Pats as a HC and wasn't looking too great his first 2 years. He took a gamble on Wilson and it paid off. So I guess the moral would be, give Dougy another 2 years.
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