Levitre

[Homey D. Clown]

Living in Nashville I am privy to the local sports chat, and they don't see Andy as the second coming of Jesus Christ like most people on this board who think it was a massive blunder to lose him. In fact, they thought he played well below average most of the time and got shoved around a lot. so I think it's time to let this free agent loss fade away, it wasn't entirely bad.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I blame the Bills for this. 14 years of losing makes fans go crazy. John Davis was an important player but those Bills teams won't be crying about losing freakin' John Davis. Hopefully we reach the point where we are upset about losing real pro bowl talent. Levitre is a good G but come on now.

We aren't. Hell, we want to sit our Pro Bowl talents on the bench to teach them a lesson and cut them.

 

It is better for your reputation as a Bills player to leave than it is to demand compensation consistent with top players in the league and stay.

[The Big Cat]

It's long been understood that in the short term free agent departures usually hurt that team more than they help the team that is signing that player. It can take a good part of a season for a player to get back to his normal level of play in a new system. I recall when Jason Peters went to Philadelphia and his first season was up and down. After that he's pretty much played at an All Pro level. I would expect Levitre to grade higher next season in TN.

 

Mario Williams is another prime example of a player who took time to settle in to his new surroundings. Houston scoffed at paying him......his replacements failed to repeat their short term success in his absence in 2011.....and their defense finshed the season toothless and in need of protection for JJ Watt. They may actually spend the top pick on the draft this year on Mario's replacement.

 

Still waiting on that link.

[thewildrabbit]

Guard isn't a premium position. QB, LT, DE, C are. The Bills just drafted a QB in the 1st, drafted a very good young LT in the 2nd, Signed a pro bowl DE, and locked up a young good C. This isn't Madden. And if you ask any good GM which position he would not invest top money into, G would be close to the bottom.

That was the old fool backwater bandit thinking. Look at some of the better teams in the NFL, look at the LG position for the playoff teams.

 

49ers, Mike Iupati LG #1 pick

Seahawks, James Carpenter LG #1 pick.

Patriots, Logan Mankins LG #1 pick.

Saints, Ben Grubbs LG #2 pick.

Broncos, Zane Beadles LG #2 pick.

KC Chiefs, Jeff Allen LG #2 pick.

 

Chargers, Chad Rinehart LG #3 pick.

Eagles, Evan Mathis LG #3 pick.

Colts, Hugh Thorton LG #3 pick

 

Bengals, Clint Bowling LG #4 pick- RG Zane Zietler #1 pick

Packers, Josh Sitton, LG #4 pick

Panthers, Chris Scott, LG #5 pick

 

Its a passing league right? The Bills had the very best pass blocking LG in the NFL and let him walk because they felt he wasn't worth 8 mill per. OK, I get that. What I don't get is trying to replace their best O lineman with an absolute scrub in Colin Brown. Look at the Chargers LG,as the Bills had a replacement for Andy and also let him walk away.

 

As stated previously by Bill, now the Bills need to draft or sign a decent LG to finally replace Levitre properly. Lets see if they even make an attempt.

[C.Biscuit97]

That was the old fool backwater bandit thinking. Look at some of the better teams in the NFL, look at the LG position for the playoff teams.

 

49ers, Mike Iupati LG #1 pick

Seahawks, James Carpenter LG #1 pick.

Patriots, Logan Mankins LG #1 pick.

Saints, Ben Grubbs LG #2 pick.

Broncos, Zane Beadles LG #2 pick.

KC Chiefs, Jeff Allen LG #2 pick.

 

Chargers, Chad Rinehart LG #3 pick.

Eagles, Evan Mathis LG #3 pick.

Colts, Hugh Thorton LG #3 pick

 

Bengals, Clint Bowling LG #4 pick- RG Zane Zietler #1 pick

Packers, Josh Sitton, LG #4 pick

Panthers, Chris Scott, LG #5 pick

 

Its a passing league right? The Bills had the very best pass blocking LG in the NFL and let him walk because they felt he wasn't worth 8 mill per. OK, I get that. What I don't get is trying to replace their best O lineman with an absolute scrub in Colin Brown. Look at the Chargers LG,as the Bills had a replacement for Andy and also let him walk away.

 

As stated previously by Bill, now the Bills need to draft or sign a decent LG to finally replace Levitre properly. Lets see if they even make an attempt.

 

http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/average/guard/

 

AL is the 4th highest paid G in the NFL. He has never made an all pro team or pro bowl. I'm sorry but paying $8 million for a non-pro bowl G is crazy. And your post just illustrated how easily Gs can be found in the draft. Of the 12 guys you listed, 6 were picked in the 3rd round or later. Very replaceable. LTs and Cs are not.

[thebandit27]

Living in Nashville I am privy to the local sports chat, and they don't see Andy as the second coming of Jesus Christ like most people on this board who think it was a massive blunder to lose him. In fact, they thought he played well below average most of the time and got shoved around a lot. so I think it's time to let this free agent loss fade away, it wasn't entirely bad.

 

Admittedly I didn't see very much of Tennessee this year; when I did watch them, that's what I saw as well.

 

------------------------

 

There's a few very important notes to add to the following post:

 

That was the old fool backwater bandit thinking. Look at some of the better teams in the NFL, look at the LG position for the playoff teams.

 

49ers, Mike Iupati LG #1 pick

Seahawks, James Carpenter LG #1 pick. Not a starter - backs up Paul McQuistan; started 10 games due to injury; blocks for a line that averages 0.1 YPC more than Buffalo

Patriots, Logan Mankins LG #1 pick.

Saints, Ben Grubbs LG #2 pick. FA signing - actually signed as a lower-cost alternative to Carl Nicks

Broncos, Zane Beadles LG #2 pick.

KC Chiefs, Jeff Allen LG #2 pick.

 

Only 1 of the above teams, KC, shows a marked difference in YPC, and none show any significant difference in Power Blocking Success. All, however, have franchise QBs, which probably has more to do with their playoff stats than the LG position.

 

Chargers, Chad Rinehart LG #3 pick. Signed as a FA, on his 3rd team since entering the NFL

Eagles, Evan Mathis LG #3 pick. Signed as a FA, on his 4th team since entering the NFL

Colts, Hugh Thorton LG #3 pick Not sure how he finished the year, but through Week 9, Hugh Thornton had given up the most QB hits in the NFL per PFF:

https://twitter.com/...258904208908289

 

The above don't really speak to the positional importance of the LG spot.

 

Bengals, Clint Bowling LG #4 pick- RG Kevin Zietler #1 pick It's worth noting that the Bengals have started 5 different players at the LG and RG spots this year. Bowling has missed 5 starts, and Zeitler has missed 4. In their stead, they've played various combinations of Andrew Whitworth, Mike Pollak, and Anthony Collins

Packers, Josh Sitton, LG #4 pick

Panthers, Chris Scott, LG #5 pick On his 3rd team in less than a year; not the starter. Forced into action after injuries to Amini Silatolu, Garry Williams, Travelle Wharton, Nate Chandler, and Jeff Byers.

 

Its a passing league right? The Bills had the very best pass blocking LG in the NFL and let him walk because they felt he wasn't worth 8 mill per. OK, I get that. What I don't get is trying to replace their best O lineman with an absolute scrub in Colin Brown. Look at the Chargers LG,as the Bills had a replacement for Andy and also let him walk away.

 

As stated previously by Bill, now the Bills need to draft or sign a decent LG to finally replace Levitre properly. Lets see if they even make an attempt.

 

There's a few salient points above; there are many expamles that simply don't fit the idea that the LG position is of some great importance. In fact, most of the examples above show that the position can be filled with no better than a 3rd-round pick or later. I personally am a fan of drafting a 3rd/4th round OT and moving him to guard. Guys like La'el Collins of LSU or Zack Martin of Notre Dame are perfect candidates IMO.

 

EDIT: of the 5 guards selected to the 2013 all-pro team, only 1 (Mankins) was drafted above the 3rd round. Vasquez and Evans were 3rd round picks, but are on their current teams as FA acquisitions. Evans and Sitton were both 4th round picks (OTs converted to OG).

 

Let's spend a mid-round pick on a conversion guy and end this kerfuffle.

Edited January 6, 2014 by thebandit27

[thewildrabbit]

http://www.spotrac.c.../average/guard/

 

AL is the 4th highest paid G in the NFL. He has never made an all pro team or pro bowl. I'm sorry but paying $8 million for a non-pro bowl G is crazy. And your post just illustrated how easily Gs can be found in the draft. Of the 12 guys you listed, 6 were picked in the 3rd round or later. Very replaceable. LTs and Cs are not.

I've never really advocated paying Levitre that 8 million, mostly because over the last 3 years I've profusely stated the O line play was over rated. Generally because of two factors. One, Fitz and his ability to get the ball out so quickly, usually in 2-3 seconds. Two, because of Gailey utilizing a spread offense to help the run game.

 

I did say,

Its a passing league right? The Bills had the very best pass blocking LG in the NFL and let him walk because they felt he wasn't worth 8 mill per. OK, I get that. What I don't get is trying to replace their best O lineman with an absolute scrub in Colin Brown. Look at the Chargers LG,as the Bills had a replacement for Andy and also let him walk away.

If you look at the top tier of teams with the best records, Seahawks, 49ers, Patriots, Saints, Broncos, Chiefs they all have a first or second round players at LG.

 

IMO the OG is of utmost importance simply because the fastest path to the QB is right up the middle. The QB can't step up into a pocket for deep throws if there is no pocket. Want to build a top running team that actually works, then you need top OG's.

 

You do realize that yours is basically the same attitude by this franchise the last 14 years, and is a clear example of why the Bills aren't winning games. If nothing else, this years team proved you can have a top rated rushing attack but if you can't make a 3rd down, and short by running, or control the clock when needed by running. Then all you are doing is putting up good stats.

[C.Biscuit97]

I've never really advocated paying Levitre that 8 million, mostly because over the last 3 years I've profusely stated the O line play was over rated. Generally because of two factors. One, Fitz and his ability to get the ball out so quickly, usually in 2-3 seconds. Two, because of Gailey utilizing a spread offense to help the run game.

 

I did say,

If you look at the top tier of teams with the best records, Seahawks, 49ers, Patriots, Saints, Broncos, Chiefs they all have a first or second round players at LG.

 

IMO the OG is of utmost importance simply because the fastest path to the QB is right up the middle. The QB can't step up into a pocket for deep throws if there is no pocket. Want to build a top running team that actually works, then you need top OG's.

 

You do realize that yours is basically the same attitude by this franchise the last 14 years, and is a clear example of why the Bills aren't winning games. If nothing else, this years team proved you can have a top rated rushing attack but if you can't make a 3rd down, and short by running, or control the clock when needed by running. Then all you are doing is putting up good stats.

 

How? I'm advocating paying premium positions. And the Bills are doing that. Glenn and Wood are a lot more important than Levitre. Mario Williams is a 2nd team all pro. I'd rather have Bryd than Levitre.

 

Levitre is fine but there is a salary cap. You can't pay everyone. Especially a G, who despite the all pro he is made out to be here, hasn't sniff an all pro team.

 

I'll agree to disagree and leave it at that. And if the D holds the lead against the Pats, Falcons, and Browns, is this even a discussion?

[thebandit27]

How? I'm advocating paying premium positions. And the Bills are doing that. Glenn and Wood are a lot more important than Levitre. Mario Williams is a 2nd team all pro. I'd rather have Bryd than Levitre.

 

Levitre is fine but there is a salary cap. You can't pay everyone. Especially a G, who despite the all pro he is made out to be here, hasn't sniff an all pro team.

 

I'll agree to disagree and leave it at that. And if the D holds the lead against the Pats, Falcons, and Browns, is this even a discussion?

 

Exactly...as I said, there's only 1 all-pro guard who was drafted above the 3rd round.

[C.Biscuit97]

Exactly...as I said, there's only 1 all-pro guard who was drafted above the 3rd round.

 

Agreed. I think some posters just are old fashioned in their beliefs about football. Guards are surrounded by other players. Teams run spreads the majority of the time and QBs are taught to make quick reads. The Saints started a rookie 3rd pick at LT in the playoffs and were fine. It's a new NFL and if there's one position you don't want to pay $8 million to, it's the one surrounded by a LT and C.

[thewildrabbit]

How? I'm advocating paying premium positions. And the Bills are doing that. Glenn and Wood are a lot more important than Levitre. Mario Williams is a 2nd team all pro. I'd rather have Bryd than Levitre.

 

Levitre is fine but there is a salary cap. You can't pay everyone. Especially a G, who despite the all pro he is made out to be here, hasn't sniff an all pro team.

 

I'll agree to disagree and leave it at that. And if the D holds the lead against the Pats, Falcons, and Browns, is this even a discussion?

Clearly, you just don't get how much the bad play by Colin Brown and then Legursky hurt the team this season.

 

You keep bringing up Levitre and I don't know why. I thought I made it clear I've never advocated keeping him at 8 mill. There were other options at LG for a lot less money that made a whole lot more sense then Colin Brown / Sam Young. Many, many posters here kept bringing it up before the season even started.

[C.Biscuit97]

Clearly, you just don't get how much the bad play by Colin Brown and then Legursky hurt the team this season.

 

You keep bringing up Levitre and I don't know why. I thought I made it clear I've never advocated keeping him at 8 mill. There were other options at LG for a lot less money that made a whole lot more sense then Colin Brown / Sam Young. Many, many posters here kept bringing it up before the season even started.

 

I've said the whole time. They misevaluated their LG replacements. At the same time, they also nailed Glenn (he's just a G according to the draft "experts"). They made a mistake. But honestly, I struggle to really see any difference in our wins.

[thewildrabbit]

I've said the whole time. They misevaluated their LG replacements. At the same time, they also nailed Glenn (he's just a G according to the draft "experts"). They made a mistake. But honestly, I struggle to really see any difference in our wins.

Then we have a serious difference of opinion on the OG subject.

 

Perhaps you would care to elaborate as to why you think the OG's play isn't of that importance to winning games.

[C.Biscuit97]

Then we have a serious difference of opinion on the OG subject.

 

Perhaps you would care to elaborate as to why you think the OG's play isn't of that importance to winning games.

 

The spread offense. Qb's training to get rid of the ball quick. Teams will go 4 or 5 wide on the goalline. The reason high school teams went to the spread is because it makes it easier for small olines to block. You don't need those dominant olines like you used to. SF is probably the biggest throwback team. The Saints routinely let their o linemen walk.

 

We need a better G than Brown or Doug L but odds are there is a more than servicable one in the draft this year.

[thebandit27]

The spread offense. Qb's training to get rid of the ball quick. Teams will go 4 or 5 wide on the goalline. The reason high school teams went to the spread is because it makes it easier for small olines to block. You don't need those dominant olines like you used to. SF is probably the biggest throwback team. The Saints routinely let their o linemen walk.

 

We need a better G than Brown or Doug L but odds are there is a more than servicable one in the draft this year.

 

You could also look at a team like Seattle, who's OL has been a hot mess this year, with both starting OTs missing a combined 15 games and both starting guards missing or playing out of position for a combined 14 games (for what it's worth, C Max Unger also missed 3 games). They still managed a very Buffalo-like 4.3 YPC, allowed 93 QB hits (only 12 fewer than Buffalo despite having Russell Wilson at QB), and had less than 50% Power Success in all directions running the football.

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_QBHIT&tabSeq=2&season=2013&role=TM&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&qualified=false

 

Yet they managed a 13-3 record and 1st place in the NFC, despite playing in the league's toughest division. That's what a good QB and a stout defense will do.

[thewildrabbit]

The spread offense. Qb's training to get rid of the ball quick. Teams will go 4 or 5 wide on the goalline. The reason high school teams went to the spread is because it makes it easier for small olines to block. You don't need those dominant olines like you used to. SF is probably the biggest throwback team. The Saints routinely let their o linemen walk.

 

We need a better G than Brown or Doug L but odds are there is a more than servicable one in the draft this year.

The Bills didn't run a spread offense very often under Hackett from what I saw. I noticed the Bills ran out of the shotgun quite a bit, and handed off to the single setback out of a 3 WR set. They almost always had a TE for max protection, and sometimes even a fullback. I don't think I ever saw Hackett call an empty backfield 5 WR set like Gailey used to run, and he rarely called 4 WR sets that I saw. It may have looked like a 4 WR set but it was TE Scott Chandler out in front of that 3 player cluster on the line.

 

It was more of a hurry up, read option type offense that didn't work so well because of EJ's knee concerns, so EJ didn't run the read option very often. Kind of fubar'd from the very start of the season.

 

The Bills really, really needed better play from their OG's and while Urbik was adequate in some games, in other games he really stunk it up. Just not near as bad as Brown or Legursky. In all honesty it seems to me that for the amount of times the Bills ran the football, and then when that failed they put the onus on the QB. This year they would have done so much better with better play from the OG position, In both pass and run blocking. My take is to the tune of at least two to three more wins.

 

Anyway, I've argued this point long enough. I can only hope the Bills either draft an OG with their #2 pick or find a pair of top OG's in free agency. I like LBer Khalil Mack / WR Sammy Watkins with that #9 pick

[Bill from NYC]

I'll agree to disagree and leave it at that. And if the D holds the lead against the Pats, Falcons, and Browns, is this even a discussion?

 

The point is that good blockers sustain drives. Can you at least acknowledge this CB? It's tough to hold a lead when you can't pick up that time killing first down, or your rookie qb is being chased.

 

So sure, there is plenty of discussion about letting a fine blocker walk.