Levitre

[BADOLBILZ]

It's a bit of hyperbole to be sure, but the primary point stands.

 

Well, it is hyperbole on multiple fronts. I don't know how well the point stands.

 

Levitre was a better player than Dockery had been.....or ever was....... and even all these years later the Levitre contract only had $10.5M in guaranteed money and Dockery's had $18M.

 

Levitres contract is not some enormous weight around the Titans neck.....if he fails to play to his contract they can cut him without major ramifications.

 

I can see the Bills drafting Zach Martin in the second round, and moving him to guard. He is very Levitre-like, IMO. A really good technician who can play LT in the event of an injury.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

Well, it is hyperbole on multiple fronts. I don't know how well the point stands.

 

Levitre was a better player than Dockery had been.....or ever was....... and even all these years later the Levitre contract only had $10.5M in guaranteed money and Dockery's had $18M.

 

Levitres contract is not some enormous weight around the Titans neck.....if he fails to play to his contract they can cut him without major ramifications.

 

I can see the Bills drafting Zach Martin in the second round, and moving him to guard. He is very Levitre-like, IMO. A really good technician who can play LT in the event of an injury.

 

Well if Badol says it must be true. Obviously, a G who didn't make any pro bowls or all pro teams is better than a G who hasn't made any pro bowls or all pro teams. Got it!

[BADOLBILZ]

Well if Badol says it must be true. Obviously, a G who didn't make any pro bowls or all pro teams is better than a G who hasn't made any pro bowls or all pro teams. Got it!

 

I know how important those All Pro teams are to you...........did you notice your favorite blindside protector Jason Peters made it again. Coming off a torn achilles tendon. Pretty impressive, no?

 

Can I use your first sentence in my sig line?

[Sisyphean Bills]

You'd have to be a real fool to believe that Levitre = Dockery. Genius

 

Sort of a headscratcher there. SeaBiscuit is a vocal champion of the front office, but he chose to defend the Bills decision to write off a homegrown talent without even trying by comparing it to the Bills decision to throw Steve Hutchinson's contract at the feet of a middling player. What did Buddy say? "That money is for our own guys." Little did Buddy know they didn't mean players.

 

Enjoying the revisionist perspective that he wasn't any good. That's usually why other teams try to sign a talent quickly in free agency, because they sense the suckitude and crave adding it to their team.

[The Big Cat]

Well, it is hyperbole on multiple fronts. I don't know how well the point stands.

 

Levitre was a better player than Dockery had been.....or ever was....... and even all these years later the Levitre contract only had $10.5M in guaranteed money and Dockery's had $18M.

 

Levitres contract is not some enormous weight around the Titans neck.....if he fails to play to his contract they can cut him without major ramifications.

 

I can see the Bills drafting Zach Martin in the second round, and moving him to guard. He is very Levitre-like, IMO. A really good technician who can play LT in the event of an injury.

 

I'm still waiting on that link.

[thebandit27]

 

 

Sort of a headscratcher there. SeaBiscuit is a vocal champion of the front office, but he chose to defend the Bills decision to write off a homegrown talent without even trying by comparing it to the Bills decision to throw Steve Hutchinson's contract at the feet of a middling player. What did Buddy say? "That money is for our own guys." Little did Buddy know they didn't mean players.

 

Enjoying the revisionist perspective that he wasn't any good. That's usually why other teams try to sign a talent quickly in free agency, because they sense the suckitude and crave adding it to their team.

 

I think you're straw-man-ing the "he wasn't any good" argument. Nobody said that. Anywhere.

 

I did see many folks say that he wasn't worth $8M/year, and I've also seen folks say that he's not even a pro bowl guard (never even been an alternate as a matter of fact).

 

Personally, the most I saw of his play this year was week 17 against Houston, which was an utter horror show for Mr. Levitre. He got manhandled by both Watt and Mitchell; nearly got Fitz killed multiple times.

 

And K-9 is right: he was our 3rd best OLmen

[Sisyphean Bills]

I think you're straw-man-ing the "he wasn't any good" argument. Nobody said that. Anywhere.

 

I did see many folks say that he wasn't worth $8M/year, and I've also seen folks say that he's not even a pro bowl guard (never even been an alternate as a matter of fact).

Saying he's a bad version of Legursky isn't saying he isn't very good?

 

Personally, the most I saw of his play this year was week 17 against Houston, which was an utter horror show for Mr. Levitre. He got manhandled by both Watt and Mitchell; nearly got Fitz killed multiple times.

 

And K-9 is right: he was our 3rd best OLmen

So what. I happen to think K-9 is wrong. But, you two are entitled to your opinions.

[Bill from NYC]

 

 

Great point. Smart teams pay guards who haven't made one pro bowl $8 million a year. Genius. And they draft a G in the top 10 & look at how awesome Chris Johnson & the Titans were this year!!!

 

Andy Levitre = Derrick Dockery

CB, PLEASE tell us that you don't mean this!!! It doesn't seem possible that a person who follows and posts about football to the degree that you do could think the above.

 

Not only was Levitre a 10x better blocker, he played his ass off in terms of effort. Dockery's uniform was clean after a game. When he was cut, he didn't make much money and as soon out of the league. A classic case of a guy who got the big bucks and quit.

 

I can understand making the case that letting Levitre walk was a good move. I 100% disagree, but at least you can present a case (salary, etc.) that would approach being plausible.

 

Dockery? Ya need to re-think this big time Bro!

Edited January 5, 2014 by Bill from NYC

[Coach Tuesday]

CB, PLEASE tell us that you don't mean this!!! It doesn't seem possible that a person who follows and posts about football to the degree that you do could think the above.

 

Not only was Levitre a 10x better blocker, he played his ass off in terms of effort. Dockery's uniform was clean after a game. When he was cut, he didn't make much money and as soon out of the league. A classic case of a guy who got the big bucks and quit.

 

I can understand making the case that letting Levitre walk was a good move. I 100% disagree, but at least you can present a case (salary, etc.) that would approach being plausible.

 

Dockery? Ya need to re-think this big time Bro!

 

He's basing it off of his observations from the last game of the season, when Levitre played through a hip injury. But whatever.

 

The only thing that gives me some consolation with the Levitre situation is that I have to believe that Whaley won't let it happen again. He probably trusted Marrone to judge the talent on the roster and coach up guys like Brown and Legursky. Now he knows that was a huge error and will prioritize upgrading the position. It doesn't reflect well on Marrone, if that's how it went down.

[Bill from NYC]

 

 

He's basing it off of his observations from the last game of the season, when Levitre played through a hip injury. But whatever.

 

The only thing that gives me some consolation with the Levitre situation is that I have to believe that Whaley won't let it happen again. He probably trusted Marrone to judge the talent on the roster and coach up guys like Brown and Legursky. Now he knows that was a huge error and will prioritize upgrading the position. It doesn't reflect well on Marrone, if that's how it went down.

 

Again, keeping Levitre, imo, would have won us at least one more football game. The problem is that there is no way to prove this. Instead we went with a rookie qb who was exposed by the hole left by AL's departure.

 

Also, now this gaping hole must be repaired. People think that it is simple to replace guards. Bill Parcells disagrees. I heard him say once how he can spot plenty of receivers before a draft, but only a few solid guards. It might take a second round pick to replace Levitre. I would rather be able to use it on a qb (McCarron, Murray, etc).

 

Jmo.

[thebandit27]

 

Saying he's a bad version of Legursky isn't saying he isn't very good?

 

 

So what. I happen to think K-9 is wrong. But, you two are entitled to your opinions.

 

You'll have to quote that ba version post, as I didn't see that.

 

And so what? Really? Now we can't gauge our opinions based on how the guy plays?

 

You really mean to tell me you think Levitre is a better OLmen than Wood or Glenn?

[Bill from NYC]

You really mean to tell me you think Levitre is a better OLmen than Wood or Glenn?

 

He was last season. Glenn was a rookie and Wood was nursing and recovering from injuries.

[thewildrabbit]

He's basing it off of his observations from the last game of the season, when Levitre played through a hip injury. But whatever.

 

The only thing that gives me some consolation with the Levitre situation is that I have to believe that Whaley won't let it happen again. He probably trusted Marrone to judge the talent on the roster and coach up guys like Brown and Legursky. Now he knows that was a huge error and will prioritize upgrading the position. It doesn't reflect well on Marrone, if that's how it went down.

That guy has been beating the Levitre sucks because CJ2K sucks drum all season. NVM the fact that the Titans have a rookie at center or that every other player on that Titan line grades worse then Andy. CB is in his very own bubble.

 

Apparently you missed this post....

marrone suggests he is happy with the G depth on the roster. Still you would think it wise for the Bills to look at FA's or to take someone in mid rounds of the draft.

 

Hope you are right Coach Tuesday, as we fans can only hope someone at OBD (Whaley) noticed that you can't get by with Buddy Nix's philosophy that guards are a dime a dozen.

 

Again, keeping Levitre, imo, would have won us at least one more football game. The problem is that there is no way to prove this. Instead we went with a rookie qb who was exposed by the hole left by AL's departure.

 

Also, now this gaping hole must be repaired. People think that it is simple to replace guards. Bill Parcells disagrees. I heard him say once how he can spot plenty of receivers before a draft, but only a few solid guards. It might take a second round pick to replace Levitre. I would rather be able to use it on a qb (McCarron, Murray, etc).

 

Jmo.

What price do we fans put on winning, its priceless isn't it. Most all of us would have used up all the cap space to ensure we did all we could to win games.

 

I'd say most fans would have paid Levitre what he wanted, or at least a top free agent OG, and the result would have been a better line. With better continuity, better protections for all those rookie QB's, a better running game that could actually make a 3rd and short when needed or control the clock.

 

My take is the Bills would have won more then one game, more like three. That first Patriots game to play keep away from Brady from the 3rd quarter leading 21-17 . The Falcons game to run the ball to control the clock in the 4th quarter. The Chiefs game, after running 79 yards to the Chiefs one yard line. Then at first and goal they actually punch the ball in. 9-7 and the Bills are in the playoffs.

 

Should the Bills use that 2nd round pick on an OG, and not another QB. Then I can see EJ gaining an advantage to develop properly.

 

 

On another note, with better special teams play this season I could see this team winning another two games. Marrone wants to keep Danny Crossman. I'm losing faith in Marrone for many of his judgement's.

Edited January 5, 2014 by FeartheLosing

[thebandit27]

 

 

He was last season. Glenn was a rookie and Wood was nursing and recovering from injuries.

 

My statement was in regard to quality of play when on the field--injuries and inexperience notwithstanding.

 

I thought both Wood and Glenn were better players. Seeing what I've seen this year from all 3 hasn't changed my opinion at all.

 

Again, to me it's not an anti-Levitre thing; he's a good player. He's neither a great OG nor an $8M/year player IMO.

 

I think the team could do just as well by drafting a converted OT in round 3 or 4.

[Wayne Cubed]

 

What price do we fans put on winning, its priceless isn't it. Most all of us would have used up all the cap space to ensure we did all we could to win games.

 

I'd say most fans would have paid Levitre what he wanted, or at least a top free agent OG, and the result would have been a better line. With better continuity, better protections for all those rookie QB's, a better running game that could actually make a 3rd and short when needed or control the clock.

 

My take is the Bills would have won more then one game, more like three. That first Patriots game to play keep away from Brady from the 3rd quarter leading 21-17 . The Falcons game to run the ball to control the clock in the 4th quarter. The Chiefs game, after running 79 yards to the Chiefs one yard line. Then at first and goal they actually punch the ball in. 9-7 and the Bills are in the playoffs.

 

Should the Bills use that 2nd round pick on an OG, and not another QB. Then I can see EJ gaining an advantage to develop properly.

 

But thats why we are fans and not running teams. Most fans don't have the foresight to realize you can't keep a team or an OL together forever. It's just not possible no matter how much better you think the OL would have been this year. By paying Levitre you risk not being able to pay Wood or Glenn in the future. GM's and teams don't just look at rosters and their team on a yearly bases. They have to look at the contracts and where they overlap and what kind of money there are going to have and forecast into the future.

 

Yes, there was money to pay Levitre this year and keep Wood and Glenn, but thats not the point.

[Coach Tuesday]

 

 

But thats why we are fans and not running teams. Most fans don't have the foresight to realize you can't keep a team or an OL together forever. It's just not possible no matter how much better you think the OL would have been this year. By paying Levitre you risk not being able to pay Wood or Glenn in the future. GM's and teams don't just look at rosters and their team on a yearly bases. They have to look at the contracts and where they overlap and what kind of money there are going to have and forecast into the future.

 

Yes, there was money to pay Levitre this year and keep Wood and Glenn, but thats not the point.

 

Excuse me but frankly, many of us fans could've done a better job of running this team than the clowns at OBD. We certainly couldn't have done any worse. Do you realize what you're defending?

[Wayne Cubed]

Excuse me but frankly, many of us fans could've done a better job of running this team than the clowns at OBD. We certainly couldn't have done any worse. Do you realize what you're defending?

 

Excuse me while I be frank right back. There is absolutely no way for you to know that or prove that and using hindsight doesn't support your claim.

 

And yes I do realize what I'm defending. I'm defending a specific decision to not grossly overpay for a LG. Have the Bills done everything right? No, and I'm not saying that. But there is nothing wrong with acknowledging that they did something right, IMO. People love to point out all the wrongs with the franchise and can't wait to jump on them. This is a decision, where IMO, they were right.

 

I mean this seriously: If you think you could run a NFL franchise better, why aren't you out there trying to?

 

EDIT: Did they get the replacement of that LG correct? No, I'm not saying that either. They have a chance to correct that this year. You can't just fix everything in one year. Last year people wanted a LB. Check. They wanted an improved defense. Check. They wanted another receiving threat. Check and Check.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Wayne Cubed

[Magox]

You'll have to quote that ba version post, as I didn't see that.

 

And so what? Really? Now we can't gauge our opinions based on how the guy plays?

 

You really mean to tell me you think Levitre is a better OLmen than Wood or Glenn?

 

Let's put it this way, when Levitre was on this team, he was the best O-lineman we had.

 

He's neither a great OG nor an $8M/year player IMO.

 

Oh yes he is; FACTUALLY speaking he achieved that $8M/year contract, and I told you that he would get that contract before he got it, and he did....

 

And if you want to look at other considerations, the YPC behind him here in Buffalo his two last years was the highest in the league, he gave up very few sacks and he never missed a game. The results, the contract offer he received and his durability all dispute your assertion that he was merely a decent Guard.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Magox

[thewildrabbit]

But thats why we are fans and not running teams. Most fans don't have the foresight to realize you can't keep a team or an OL together forever. It's just not possible no matter how much better you think the OL would have been this year. By paying Levitre you risk not being able to pay Wood or Glenn in the future. GM's and teams don't just look at rosters and their team on a yearly bases. They have to look at the contracts and where they overlap and what kind of money there are going to have and forecast into the future.

 

Yes, there was money to pay Levitre this year and keep Wood and Glenn, but thats not the point.

Its precisely the point, and everyone knows it!

 

Nevertheless, there was a majority of posters in this forum that lamented the loss of Levitre and even even more were upset that no "adequate" replacement was obtained in the draft or free agency. So many fans saw that there were going to be problems on that line this season, and they were correct. Most fans here realized that you don't let the best player in an area leave and then hope some backup scrubs can handle his job. There is a decent amount of football intelligent Bills fans in this forum.

 

The difference between the Bills FO and fans? The fans want to win, and this FO simply wants to make the team as profitable as possible, so the next owner finds this team desirous. .

[thebandit27]

 

 

Let's put it this way, when Levitre was on this team, he was the best O-lineman we had.

 

 

 

Oh yes he is; FACTUALLY speaking he achieved that $8M/year contract, and I told you that he would get that contract before he got it, and he did....

 

And if you want to look at other considerations, the YPC behind him here in Buffalo his two last years was the highest in the league, he gave up very few sacks and he never missed a game. The results, the contract offer he received and his durability all dispute your assertion that he was merely a decent Guard.

 

First off, I never said decent, I said he was good not great.

 

Secondly, Derrick Dockery earned a $7M/year deal; does that mean he was great?

 

Ask Tennessee if they're happy with their $8M/year investment. Their running game hasn't improved much if at all.

 

Lastly, I never said he wouldn't get the deal you suggested; I merely said that it would be crazy to give it to him. I stand by that.

 

EDIT: sorry one more thing--advanced stats from PFF shoul hardly be considered facts...I agree with K-9 that Glenn and Wood were (and remain still) better OLmen.

Edited January 5, 2014 by thebandit27