C.Biscuit97 Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 Good dude so good for him. Personally, I want to get to the point where I don't even know who the punter is. Was there anything more embarassing than Moormn being the cover boy for the season's tickets a few year back?
jumbalaya Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 Hurrah for Brian Moorman. He's a great Bill, an All Pro and belongs on the Wall. But he should be put on the Wall in 2014. Too bad for us if he actually has to kick in 2014.
Heathcliff Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 Can punting be a bright spot? It has been for several years in Buffalo. Where have you been?......................
NoSaint Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) It's an insurance policy. By the way, I posted this in the other Moorman thread-- Chris Brown makes a strong defense for Moorman's play. http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Moorman-wants-to-keep-on-kicking/863966a2-09d4-459c-aa98-76587cd7367e On the surface some might look at Moorman’s net punting average, one of the chief indicators used to assess a punter’s rate of success, and see that with a mark of 36.6 he ranked 30th in the NFL. What most may not understand is Moorman was very rarely asked to flip the field for Buffalo’s defense. Most of the time the approach of special teams coordinator Danny Crossman was to hang the ball high to let the coverage unit force a fair catch or down the ball. In his 11 games as Bills punter Moorman did an admirable job. He forced 17 fair catches, put 10 punts out of bounds and four others were downed. All told just over half of his punts (31-61) were not returnable. If you project Moorman’s fair catches out over a 16-game season he would’ve had 28 on the year, which would’ve ranked second in the NFL. For those punts that were returned the gains were minimal. Opponents averaged 7.6 yards a return on Moorman punts this season good for eighth-best in the league. More importantly it cut the average return that opponents had been getting when Shawn Powell was punting almost in half. When Powell was still punting for Buffalo opponents averaged 14.5 yards a punt return. Hang time is what Crossman wants more than anything and Moorman proved he could still deliver that on a consistent basis. According to Pro Football Focus Moorman’s top hang time this season was 5.5 seconds, good for second-best in the league. but doesnt net account for return yards? ie the end result of our punting plays is 30th in the league. we just kick it 20 yards shorter to avoid a 10 yard return that other teams are giving up (numbers obviously made up for ease of discussing the concept). if thats the case, its an awful defense of his kicking. I could kick 50 times and allow very few returns/return yards, because itd never get near outkicking my coverage and id likewise be at the bottom of the pack in net yardage but great in downed/fair caught punts. Edited January 10, 2014 by NoSaint
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 It has been for several years in Buffalo. Where have you been?...................... And that sadly sums up the last 14 years of Bills football. We had a good punter. Yeah!!!
BillsWest Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 If all you are looking for are net yards, hang time, fair catches, etc., then why not punt a long line drive out of bounds?
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 but doesnt net account for return yards? ie the end result of our punting plays is 30th in the league. we just kick it 20 yards shorter to avoid a 10 yard return that other teams are giving up (numbers obviously made up for ease of discussing the concept). if thats the case, its an awful defense of his kicking. I could kick 50 times and allow very few returns/return yards, because itd never get near outkicking my coverage and id likewise be at the bottom of the pack in net yardage but great in downed/fair caught punts. 1) It also depends on where you're kicking it from. Your net can be horrible in a game because you are kicking a bunch of punts from your own 40. I don't think that was the case with Moorman because his overall average was also low. 2) But the article makes clear that Crossman basically wanted Moorman to sacrifice distance for hang time. That was the message too when Moorman was signed, and why I said all season that Moorman was doing exactly as he was told to do--i.e., kick really high 40-yard punts with lots of hang time and no returns. I think it's clear that our coverage teams were terrible, so it was probably a good strategy.
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 If all you are looking for are net yards, hang time, fair catches, etc., then why not punt a long line drive out of bounds? I think some teams try this but if a punter shanks one, you can be screwed big time.
NoSaint Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) 1) It also depends on where you're kicking it from. Your net can be horrible in a game because you are kicking a bunch of punts from your own 40. I don't think that was the case with Moorman because his overall average was also low. 2) But the article makes clear that Crossman basically wanted Moorman to sacrifice distance for hang time. That was the message too when Moorman was signed, and why I said all season that Moorman was doing exactly as he was told to do--i.e., kick really high 40-yard punts with lots of hang time and no returns. I think it's clear that our coverage teams were terrible, so it was probably a good strategy. I definitely understand the concepts at play, i just guess i was pointing out that it didnt lend much to the "hes an effective punter" argument as much as "these are (some of the?) reasons he wasnt effective" hopefully with a better coverage unit he can open it up some more, but im skeptical both on whether or coverage will improve greatly and if he has the ability even if it does. that he was asked to kick extremely short and high last year and accomplished that doesnt fix that skepticism. hes turning 38 and its been awhile since hes shown he still has "it" but if we dont improve the unit atleast we know we have a guy that will simply be consistent, instead of erratic. Edited January 10, 2014 by NoSaint
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 I definitely understand the concepts at play, i just guess i was pointing out that it didnt lend much to the "hes an effective punter" argument as much as "these are (some of the?) reasons he wasnt effective" hopefully with a better coverage unit he can open it up some more, but im skeptical both on whether or coverage will improve greatly and if he has the ability even if it does. that he was asked to kick extremely short and high last year and accomplished that doesnt fix that skepticism. hes turning 38 and its been awhile since hes shown he still has "it" I generally agree. We'd all be fools to not recognize Moorman's decline. But I suppose the Bills don't care if they have found a punter who fits the ST scheme. What's weird about Moorman's decline, though, is I find he still has a strong leg, but that his short punting is what has declined. He's not hitting those inside-the-10 punts he used to be so good at. You would think that age would hurt his distance, not his accuracy.
NoSaint Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) I generally agree. We'd all be fools to not recognize Moorman's decline. But I suppose the Bills don't care if they have found a punter who fits the ST scheme. What's weird about Moorman's decline, though, is I find he still has a strong leg, but that his short punting is what has declined. He's not hitting those inside-the-10 punts he used to be so good at. You would think that age would hurt his distance, not his accuracy. its not one of the prettier positions, so ive never see great breakdowns on the physical aspects of it - especially with age - beyond "strong legs kick far!" id imagine accuracy stretches beyond the mental side though, and perhaps theres some sort of joint wear that allows him to occasionally boom one, but makes it harder to really precisely replicate motion one kick to the next? Edited January 10, 2014 by NoSaint
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 Was Moorman ever that great of a pooch punter? I remember seeing a lot of touchbacks over the years, from here he seemed about average in terms of killing it down. It was those 60 yarders I loved about him.
YoloinOhio Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 We won't even need a punter next year! ~ Nate Hackett
GG Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 2) But the article makes clear that Crossman basically wanted Moorman to sacrifice distance for hang time. That was the message too when Moorman was signed, and why I said all season that Moorman was doing exactly as he was told to do--i.e., kick really high 40-yard punts with lots of hang time and no returns. I think it's clear that our coverage teams were terrible, so it was probably a good strategy. And I doubt that Chris Brown realized that he threw Crossman under the bus with these factoids. If your kicker is near the bottom on net punting average, but because you're asking him to sky the ball for hangtime at the expense of punting further, means that you're deathly afraid of your coverage units. Unlike Dehaven who got Moorman canned, Crossman needed Moorman to save his skin.
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 And I doubt that Chris Brown realized that he threw Crossman under the bus with these factoids. If your kicker is near the bottom on net punting average, but because you're asking him to sky the ball for hangtime at the expense of punting further, means that you're deathly afraid of your coverage units. Unlike Dehaven who got Moorman canned, Crossman needed Moorman to save his skin. To be fair to Crossman, Dehaven had a similar strategy last year. He wanted his punters to basically directionally kick the ball out of bounds or pretty close to it, in order to prevent returns of any kind. He thought Powell was better at that than Moorman. When your last two ST coaches are devising strategies to basically not cover kicks, then it makes you wonder whether Marrone is right, and that our ST players are generally terrible. I would like to think that if we had better ST coaches than Crossman and DeHaven--whom I think join Ronnie Jones as part of the worst ST coaches in franchise history-- we could coach some of these guys up in order to be more disciplined, better tacklers, and better in coverage.
GG Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 I would like to think that if we had better ST coaches than Crossman and DeHaven--whom I think join Ronnie Jones as part of the worst ST coaches in franchise history-- we could coach some of these guys up in order to be more disciplined, better tacklers, and better in coverage. It wasn't just mixed execution on the coverage side, what about all the stupid holding and blocking calls that took away a lot of the returns. A lot of mental errors on that team showed that the ST unit was disorganized.
NoSaint Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 It wasn't just mixed execution on the coverage side, what about all the stupid holding and blocking calls that took away a lot of the returns. A lot of mental errors on that team showed that the ST unit was disorganized. i mentioned it in the crossman thread, but his last year in detroit one of his returners downed a kickoff at the 5 yard line. i think thats a fitting symbol for the generally disorganized, and underwhelming units that he has run.
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 It wasn't just mixed execution on the coverage side, what about all the stupid holding and blocking calls that took away a lot of the returns. A lot of mental errors on that team showed that the ST unit was disorganized. You mean the stupid holding penalties on every good return we had? Not sure how I forgot about that. This is actually a great point. I am pretty sure getting 6 "core" players isn't going to do anything to fix that problem.
clayboy54 Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 To be fair to Crossman, Dehaven had a similar strategy last year. He wanted his punters to basically directionally kick the ball out of bounds or pretty close to it, in order to prevent returns of any kind. He thought Powell was better at that than Moorman. Powell was great at kicking the ball out of bounds. Unfortunately, he did it occasionally after only 10-15 yards.
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