How Much is Russ Brandon to Blame for Bills' Current Plight?

[SRQ_BillsFan]

Excellent post!

 

Regarding the stadium location, RS was the last choice after the Erie County legislature vote down a domed stadium in Amherst. It was meant to be a cheap stadium on cheap and with all the seats possible. Ironically, if he dome in Amherst were built at that time, WNY would have had to build a new stadium 10-20 years ago as all the 70's era domes have been condemned by NFL economics. The Bill did not expect many sellouts but were surprised by the number and only then realized the impact of the Rochester market.

 

Lets not forget, Ralph Wilson was against the dome because it would not seat enough people. He was against the dome and the 3rd party management system that was put in place for it by Erie County. Ralph was flying to Seattle at the time and meeting with them about a possible relocation.

 

The dome for $50 Million approved in 1968/1969 by the county, at the time would have been approx 55,000 seats. The company building it would have managed the dome as well, as a 3rd party manager. There was no way they would go over this amount and in fact the bids for the 55,000 seat dome were over $50 Mil and rejected by the county. Ralph said he would not sign a lease with a stadium that small.

 

Ralph wanted an 80,000 seat outdoor stadium, and said he would refuse to sign any lease with a 3rd party management team. He would not consider a dome unless it would seat over 65,000, something that was impossible with the $50 Million the county had approved. Ralph said a 65,000 seat dome would not be his preference but he felt he could live with this.

 

Ironically, I just spent some time looking this up at Newspapers.com earlier this week for some reason.

[GA BILLS FAN]

He is responsible to hire the staff to build the roster. He has not had autonomy until this season (because of Littman not Ralph). Littman previously had to sign off on all decisions (and he is the worst).

 

My statement on where Russ ranks is based on the perception of his peers. The fact that his team is in the middle of league in sponsorship revenue in Buffalo is impressive.

 

Time will certainly tell on this staff and ultimately his legacy.

My issue with your logic is that you are defining success in terms of profits/losses and Brandon's ability to manage the team against that dimension, in my mind, that is flawed and the biggest issue I have with him -- he is not managing this team to win ---- I take exception to your point that he's only had control of the team for a year --- in that year, he cut Fitz and pushed $10M of his dead money into 2014 when the team has almost $20M in unspent cap money in 2013 -- so, in 2014, the Bills start out with $10M less in money to spend --- Kirby --- if you can give me ONE plausible reason why someone who wants to win would do this, please let all of us know --- I've challenged and posted that same question many times on this board and have yet to get a response that has any merit --- I want the Bills to win --- I think Brandon wants them to be profitable --- the two are not always consistent, when they are in conflict, I want him to error on the side of WINNING not making money --- to me, that defines an exceptional NFL (or other sports) executive

[Kirby Jackson]

 

My issue with your logic is that you are defining success in terms of profits/losses and Brandon's ability to manage the team against that dimension, in my mind, that is flawed and the biggest issue I have with him -- he is not managing this team to win ---- I take exception to your point that he's only had control of the team for a year --- in that year, he cut Fitz and pushed $10M of his dead money into 2014 when the team has almost $20M in unspent cap money in 2013 -- so, in 2014, the Bills start out with $10M less in money to spend --- Kirby --- if you can give me ONE plausible reason why someone who wants to win would do this, please let all of us know --- I've challenged and posted that same question many times on this board and have yet to get a response that has any merit --- I want the Bills to win --- I think Brandon wants them to be profitable --- the two are not always consistent, when they are in conflict, I want him to error on the side of WINNING not making money --- to me, that defines an exceptional NFL (or other sports) executive

 

Agree on the dead money, it was a mistake. It's the same money either way but it is cap space that was pushed back.

 

All that I am saying is that a president's job first and foremost is to maximize profit. We may not like to hear it but there is not an organization in sports where that is not the case. Now, typically winning takes care of those issues but I can think of a lot of situations where the president is good and the team stinks and visa versa. The Saints business people for example are a complete joke. They are functionally incompetent but the football people are good. Same goes for the Chicago Bulls. By the same token the Orlando Magic have always had a solid reputation.

[Dibs]

.....he cut Fitz and pushed $10M of his dead money into 2014 when the team has almost $20M in unspent cap money in 2013 -- so, in 2014, the Bills start out with $10M less in money to spend --- Kirby --- if you can give me ONE plausible reason why someone who wants to win would do this, please let all of us know --- I've challenged and posted that same question many times on this board and have yet to get a response that has any merit ---.....

 

That is incorrect.

The NFL now has rollover rules regarding the cap. The Fitz situation made no difference to the 2014 cap by putting the dead hit in 2014 rather than in 2013.

 

I have written this so many times this year that I feel that I'm crusading......

 

I'll draw a fictional example.....simplified.

 

Team A has 25M cap room in 2013.

They have a scheduled 20M cap room in 2014.

They have a dead cap hit from a player of 10M that they can either put in 2013 or 2014.

 

If they put the 10M into 2013.....that will leave 15M in cap room which they can roll over into 2014.....which makes the 2014 cap 35M(20M + 15M).

If they put the 10M into 2014.....that will leave 25M in cap room which they can roll over into 2014.....which makes the 2014 cap 35M(20M + 25M - 10M).

 

Agree on the dead money, it was a mistake.....

Not so.....see my explanation above.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Dibs

[SRQ_BillsFan]

 

 

That is incorrect.

The NFL now has rollover rules regarding the cap. The Fitz situation made no difference to the 2014 cap by putting the dead hit in 2014 rather than in 2013.

 

I have written this so many times this year that I feel that I'm crusading......

 

I'll draw a fictional example.....simplified.

 

Team A has 25M cap room in 2013.

They have a scheduled 20M cap room in 2014.

They have a dead cap hit from a player of 10M that they can either put in 2013 or 2014.

 

If they put the 10M into 2013.....that will leave 15M in cap room which they can roll over into 2014.....which makes the 2014 cap 35M(20M + 15M).

If they put the 10M into 2014.....that will leave 25M in cap room which they can roll over into 2014.....which makes the 2014 cap 35M(20M + 25M - 10M).

 

 

Not so.....see my explanation above.

 

 

Except they don't spend to the cap, it's actual dollars spent in a given year last I knew. So the Bills, using their philosophy, are $10 mil. closer to the cap. Since the bills don't believe in using the cap to their advantage.

 

Unless there was something in the new CBA that prohibits this, I have never heard that this was no longer the economics the team was working under.

 

 

[Dibs]

Except they don't spend to the cap, it's actual dollars spent in a given year last I knew. So the Bills, using their philosophy, are $10 mil. closer to the cap. Since the bills don't believe in using the cap to their advantage.

 

Unless there was something in the new CBA that prohibits this, I have never heard that this was no longer the economics the team was working under.

 

You are talking about the "Cash to Cap" philosophy which has no relation to the actual cap......which is what was being discussed. The dead Fitz money actually has nothing to do with C2C as there is no cash money associated with the $10m dead cap hit. It is all money that had been paid to Fitz in previous years(in the form of Signing Bonus etc).......so in that regard, again it has no impact on the 2014 season whether it was put in the 2013 or the 2014 year.

 

In regards to the C2C philosophy however.....as far as I'm aware, most teams follow a similar base concept(and that's all it is, a base concept to keep in mind when making transactions).......and according to this link: http://www.overthecap.com/nfl-cash-space.php?Year=2013 (though admittedly I don't fully understand it), the Bills spent 1.115 in cash to cap(12th in the NFL) in 2013.

[BADOLBILZ]

I think that you(and several posters after your post) are looking at things through brown coloured glasses.

 

The Bills were aggressive this off season in regards to QB. We determined that Fitz wasn't the answer, we aggressively went after Alex Smith, we brought in the best FA QB(of a very poor pool) and we spent a 1st round pick on the best(in the Bills eyes) QB in the draft.

 

The Seahawks were aggressive at not wanting to spend too much in finding their future QB. In effect, they were less aggressive than what the Bills have been in the past where we spent 3 1st rounders(Bledsoe, JP, Johnson) and a 3rd(Edwards)......and most people view our past desires for obtaining a Franchise QB to be quite minimal.

 

The Seahawks essentially went down a similar road to what the Bills have done in the past. Trading for QBs who have no chance to become stars(deluded perhaps as we were with Johnson over one good game)......and spending minimal draft picks on the position.

 

Had the situations been reversed and we lucked out with Edwards, and Wilson bombed out, it wouldn't change the facts that neither team aggressively tried to obtain their all important Franchise QB......though perhaps people would be shaking their heads and rolling their eyes at the Seahawks at this point and applauding the Bills.

 

Pure and simple, they got lucky......very lucky.

 

 

The Seahawks search for a QB lasted all of 2 years.

 

The Bills has lasted 14.

 

The Seahawks were bold and unwilling to settle. They took chances at many positions.......as evidenced by their fleecing of the Bills in the Marshawn Lynch trade.

 

Would the Bills have stuck with TJax after he lead them to a 7-7 record in his games in 2011? You bet.

 

But the Seahawks weren't going to settle, they went out and brought in the top free agent.......a very promising prospect in Matt Flynn.......and drafted Russell Wilson while two teams that were also in need of improved QB play drafted TJ Graham and a punter with the 2 picks just prior to Seattle's.

 

You are what your record says you are in the NFL.

 

When you fail to make the playoffs for 14 years......you have earned criticism.

 

When you fail to get a QB for 14 years......you have earned criticism.

 

When you draft RB's and DB's in the first round and repeatedly trade or let them walk in free agency......only to have to use a first round pick to replace them......you deserve criticism.

[GA BILLS FAN]

That is incorrect.

The NFL now has rollover rules regarding the cap. The Fitz situation made no difference to the 2014 cap by putting the dead hit in 2014 rather than in 2013.

 

I have written this so many times this year that I feel that I'm crusading......

 

I'll draw a fictional example.....simplified.

 

Team A has 25M cap room in 2013.

They have a scheduled 20M cap room in 2014.

They have a dead cap hit from a player of 10M that they can either put in 2013 or 2014.

 

If they put the 10M into 2013.....that will leave 15M in cap room which they can roll over into 2014.....which makes the 2014 cap 35M(20M + 15M).

If they put the 10M into 2014.....that will leave 25M in cap room which they can roll over into 2014.....which makes the 2014 cap 35M(20M + 25M - 10M).

 

 

Not so.....see my explanation above.

Are you sure ? I thought the last year for that provision was 2012 money rolling into 2013 --- I thought I read somewhere that teams can no longer rollover dollars ? --- can you refer to a source if you have one --

 

Agree on the dead money, it was a mistake. It's the same money either way but it is cap space that was pushed back.

 

All that I am saying is that a president's job first and foremost is to maximize profit. We may not like to hear it but there is not an organization in sports where that is not the case. Now, typically winning takes care of those issues but I can think of a lot of situations where the president is good and the team stinks and visa versa. The Saints business people for example are a complete joke. They are functionally incompetent but the football people are good. Same goes for the Chicago Bulls. By the same token the Orlando Magic have always had a solid reputation.

I think a smart executive would realize that winning WOULD maximize profits ---

[Kirby Jackson]

 

I think a smart executive would realize that winning WOULD maximize profits ---

 

Obviously, but that is the point. He is not the person in charge of building th roster. The people that he has hired are responsible for that. His responsibility is the owner's bottom line. All of these guys want to win and wan to win badly. I can attest to that. As hard as we take it as fans I can tell you that the people that make their living that way take it much harder.

 

The sign of a bad organization (business side) is one that relies strictly on winning to be profitable. That is something that is often out of your control. There are so many factors that go into wins and losses. The president's job is to make sure that regardless of the record the team turns a profit. Obviously when you win (usually) that number is higher.

[Dibs]

Are you sure ? I thought the last year for that provision was 2012 money rolling into 2013 --- I thought I read somewhere that teams can no longer rollover dollars ? --- can you refer to a source if you have one --

 

....

 

Not to my knowledge......it is in the CBA without an end date.

 

Page 96 under " (v) Carry over room"

link to pdf CBA: http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

(Sorry, it won't cut and paste)

 

The only part that I am unsure of is whether a team can re-roll already rolled over monies into the next season. Though the language of the CBA seems quite clear that this is not allowed, several examples were pointed out to me by other posters which implied that this had previously occurred. I am waiting for this season to finish so I can look at the new numbers for next season......and obtain the definitive answer.

[Dibs]

Your response really makes me wonder if you actually read my post....

The Seahawks search for a QB lasted all of 2 years.

 

The Bills has lasted 14.

 

What's that got to do with anything. They got lucky.....and without much effort.

 

The Seahawks were bold and unwilling to settle. Is it bold to obtained a couple of guys that haven't proven anything? If they were bold doing that, you must have considered the Bills to be courageous champions to spend 1st round picks on Bledsoe and Johnson. Is it bold to not draft anybody except for in the 3rd round? If Wilson hadn't been a miraculous success......then they would have had to settle on Flynn.

 

They took chances at many positions.......as evidenced by their fleecing of the Bills in the Marshawn Lynch trade. What's that got to do with the discussion about whether they "aggressively" addressed their QB situation?

 

Would the Bills have stuck with TJax after he lead them to a 7-7 record in his games in 2011? You bet. Okay.....if you say so.

 

But the Seahawks weren't going to settle, they went out and brought in the top free agent.......a very promising prospect in Matt Flynn.......and drafted Russell Wilson while two teams that were also in need of improved QB play drafted TJ Graham and a punter with the 2 picks just prior to Seattle's. As I said.....they brought in a guy who hadn't proven anything.....a one game wonder.....just as the Bills brought in Johnson off of one good game. And they spent a 3rd round draft pick on a QB. Again I say that this isn't aggressive at all......in fact it is fairly sedate for a team looking to find a Franchise QB.

 

You are what your record says you are in the NFL. Really? Again.....what has that got to do with the situation at hand?

 

When you fail to make the playoffs for 14 years......you have earned criticism. Aside from the concept that I wasn't commenting on the Bills as such, I was commenting on the inaccuracy of stating that Seattle aggressively went after a Franchise QB......what you are implying here is that one shouldn't try to look at each situation based upon its own merits and should instead place a bias on the assessment.

 

When you fail to get a QB for 14 years......you have earned criticism. See my previous statement.

 

When you draft RB's and DB's in the first round and repeatedly trade or let them walk in free agency......only to have to use a first round pick to replace them......you deserve criticism. I don't actually disagree with this concept at all......but again, it has nothing to do with the discussion about how Seattle aggressively set out to obtain a Franchise QB.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Dibs

[BADOLBILZ]

Your response really makes me wonder if you actually read my post....

 

I read your post.

 

You basically believe the Seahawks just got lucky.

 

Luck is where preparation meets opportunity.

 

The Bills are notoriously unprepared.

 

They have not been without opportunity.

 

I mentioned TJax 7-7 2011 season because the Bills have kept the likes of JP, Edwards and Fitz in starting roles despite similarly discouraging seasons.

 

I understand that pointing out that you are wrong is just making you a more furious apologist of the team but it is what it is.

Edited December 22, 2013 by BADOLBEELZ

[Dibs]

I read your post.

 

You basically believe the Seahawks just got lucky.

 

Luck is where preparation meets opportunity.

 

The Bills are notoriously unprepared.

 

They have not been without opportunity.

 

I mentioned TJax 7-7 2011 season because the Bills have kept the likes of JP, Edwards and Fitz in starting roles despite similarly discouraging seasons.

 

I understand that pointing out that you are wrong is just making you a more furious apologist of the team but it is what it is.

 

You have misunderstood the discussion.

Beerball made comment on how Seattle was aggressive in how they tried to find their Franchise QB. I disagreed with this and we discussed it back and forth over a couple of posts. You then waded in with all sorts of irrelevancies......with an obvious beef that somehow I was being an apologist(which had nothing to do with the discussion).

 

Apart from pointing out the Bills aggressiveness in regards to finding a QB this last off-seasons, I in fact made it quite clear that I believe the Bills have indeed lacked aggressiveness in the past in regards to the important QB position.

 

Perhaps there is a reason why you continually see others who say anything different from yourself as being apologists.

[thewildrabbit]

We are stuck with Brandon as long as Ralph is the owner.

 

What fans can do is ACT --- write letters to Brandon and others in Buffalo front offices and ask them the tough questions -- we as fans want a WINNING first philosophy --- put pressure on the media and sponsors to hold the organization accountable to their supposed stated goal (winning) and the actions they take (Toronto series, underspent CAP) --- and stop going to games until they win --- I know it's hard to get over the FEAR factor of losing the team if attendance truly drops, but that's the only way to send the message --- Whaley, the coaches and players are giving it 100% to win -- Brandon must do the same for it to work ---

I don't believe that for a second, as history has shown us that when fans stop buying season tickets, and the team is in actual danger of not making a profit. That this owner will make the necessary changes to the team, and improve them enough to get them in a winning direction again. This has happened to this franchise on several occasions in the past, and in each time this owner opted to find the right leadership, pay top players or do whatever it would take to correct the ticket sales.

 

I do believe that should Brandon fail in his marketing schemes to keep the fan base buying seats, then he will be replaced by someone who can. But, so far he has proven to be in an elite master class of marketing men who can keep this fan base coming back year after year despite all the losing. Should Brandon ultimately lose this lucrative CEO job with the Buffalo Bills, he should seriously contemplate going into politics. Just think, this team has been kept profitable through some of the most troubling economic times since the great depression.

 

For 2013 all it took was for this franchise to finally draft a QB with a #1 pick, which gives fans hope. A new coaching staff gives fans new hope, even if they are from the college ranks with no history of great success.

"Season-ticket sales are up to 43,267, the team said.“Season ticket holders continue to be the building blocks of our franchise,” said a statement from CEO Russ Brandon. “A strong season ticket base is the ultimate home field advantage.” http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/news/2012/08/21/bills-season-ticket-sales-up-team-has.html

Bills fans just want to keep their team in their city.

[SRQ_BillsFan]

 

 

You are talking about the "Cash to Cap" philosophy which has no relation to the actual cap......which is what was being discussed. The dead Fitz money actually has nothing to do with C2C as there is no cash money associated with the $10m dead cap hit. It is all money that had been paid to Fitz in previous years(in the form of Signing Bonus etc).......so in that regard, again it has no impact on the 2014 season whether it was put in the 2013 or the 2014 year.

 

In regards to the C2C philosophy however.....as far as I'm aware, most teams follow a similar base concept(and that's all it is, a base concept to keep in mind when making transactions).......and according to this link: http://www.overthecap.com/nfl-cash-space.php?Year=2013 (though admittedly I don't fully understand it), the Bills spent 1.115 in cash to cap(12th in the NFL) in 2013.

 

 

You are correct, my bad. I did not think that through far enough.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Obviously, but that is the point. He is not the person in charge of building th roster. The people that he has hired are responsible for that. ...

 

There were a few press activities last spring where Buddy Nix stated that there were daily meetings to discuss personnel (as well as other things) and they were attended by Doug Marrone, Russ Brandon, and himself.

[GA BILLS FAN]

Not to my knowledge......it is in the CBA without an end date.

 

Page 96 under " (v) Carry over room"

link to pdf CBA: http://nfllabor.file...t-2011-2020.pdf

(Sorry, it won't cut and paste)

 

The only part that I am unsure of is whether a team can re-roll already rolled over monies into the next season. Though the language of the CBA seems quite clear that this is not allowed, several examples were pointed out to me by other posters which implied that this had previously occurred. I am waiting for this season to finish so I can look at the new numbers for next season......and obtain the definitive answer.

I read it the same way, which is encouraging if Bills do in fact, rollover the unspent portion --- I also have the same ?? on whether they can re-roll $$ from 2012 into 2013 and then into 2014 --- stay tuned, but at least there is hope they can use that money --- let's see if they do

 

Obviously, but that is the point. He is not the person in charge of building th roster. The people that he has hired are responsible for that. His responsibility is the owner's bottom line. All of these guys want to win and wan to win badly. I can attest to that. As hard as we take it as fans I can tell you that the people that make their living that way take it much harder.

 

The sign of a bad organization (business side) is one that relies strictly on winning to be profitable. That is something that is often out of your control. There are so many factors that go into wins and losses. The president's job is to make sure that regardless of the record the team turns a profit. Obviously when you win (usually) that number is higher.

I have no doubt that Brandon wants to WIN --- my issue is when the smartest short-term business decision conflicts with winning, I expect him to always pick winning --- the long-term smart moves are to do the things that help you win --- I don't believe other owners and presidents operate this way with teams that win --- I'm sure it happens with Jags, Bengals and Raiders --- as well as Royals in baseball and others in that sport --- but that is NOT what happens with perennial championship teams like Pats, Steelers, Yankees, Red Sox etc ---- I realize this is Buffalo, but the NFL has stacked the deck in a way that a small city team can compete --- and make money --- also, why in the hell does a 93-year old owner care about profit ?

[jester43]

It seems for some inexplicable reason that Ralph Wilson decided to hand over the keys to the current Bills' "kingdom" to a person who has not demonstrated anything significant, short of following Boss Ralph's orders. And now it appears he is even wavering on his lone signinicant "accomplishment", by publicly acknowledging he is reconsidering the infamous "Bills Toronto" series, which on both sides of the Peace Bridge, has been doomed since its very inception. We only need to look back at his short lived stint as interim GM, following TD's dismissal, to see firsthand that Russ is clearly not a "football man"then . But exactly what is he? He doesn't appear to be a marketing genius either. He does have a resonant voice, perhaps he was really destined to replace the iconic John Facenda on NFL films. Otherwise I am at a loss?

 

it always astonishes me how many pollyannas are out there ready to make excuses for this organization. this jerk-off was put in charge because he is a good beancounter for Ralph, nothing more. no team has done more to alienate their fan base than the Bills and russ Brandon has been front and center of the whole mess with his "Toronto initiative." He also WAS the general manager when Jauron was coach, that is a fact. for anyone to say he had nothing to do with personnel during that time is an insult. Maybe he'll get lucky with marrone/whaley like ralph did with Marv/Polian, but long-tme fans have very good reason not to trust his judgment. there really aren't words to describe how diabolical and offensive the Toronto series is.

[thebandit27]

 

 

it always astonishes me how many pollyannas are out there ready to make excuses for this organization. this jerk-off was put in charge because he is a good beancounter for Ralph, nothing more. no team has done more to alienate their fan base than the Bills and russ Brandon has been front and center of the whole mess with his "Toronto initiative." He also WAS the general manager when Jauron was coach, that is a fact. for anyone to say he had nothing to do with personnel during that time is an insult. Maybe he'll get lucky with marrone/whaley like ralph did with Marv/Polian, but long-tme fans have very good reason not to trust his judgment. there really aren't words to describe how diabolical and offensive the Toronto series is.

 

Once again (sorry if I sound like a broken record), nobody said that Brandon didn't make personnel decisions at that time--we're saying that he quickly gave up control of those decisions when Nix was hired.

 

That is absolutely what happened.

 

And by the way, it's not only okay for someone to have a different take than you, but it's also possible for them to do so without bring a "Pollyanna". There really doesn't need to be an us vs them mentality to this discussion.

 

And perhaps try to keep it classy with regard to the way you refer to Brandon. I can understand being upset, but you undermine your otherwise very relevant point(s) when you go that route.

[jester43]

whatever. he treats the fans like chumps. freaking stockholm syndrome around here.