Zip vs Loft on EJ's Throws

[BuffaloBaumer]

I have been noticing for a few weeks now that when EJ throws the ball, there is barely any zip on it. It always seems like he is rainbowing it to his receivers. For a QB that is supposed to have so much arm strength, what is the reason for this. It looks as though it takes forever to get there and I just pray that a defender is not running it down to intercept it. Did he throw this way in college as well and if so, I can't imagine this is what a franchise QB is supposed to look like. It seems to work from time to time but I have been waiting to see him really take command on these throws and it never happens......anybody?

[Hazed and Amuzed]

Because when he zips it the ball seems to hit the recievers in the head or go thru their hands.

[Guffalo]

I have noticed that too, I have made the same comment before, whether in person or on TV he seems to float them rather than fire them in there. I don't know if that is the result of coaching or his preferred delivery method, but I am always holding me breath waiting for it to land.

[8-8 Forever?]

Rookie. His in-game footwork will improve , the game will slow down, and you'll see the zip then. the kid is so in over his head right now… it will come… we knew we'd have to suffer through this. I just hope he is isn't Christian Ponder 2.0. He has some really fine traits that I hope he builds on. there's that word again….. hope.

[Dr. K]

I have been noticing for a few weeks now that when EJ throws the ball, there is barely any zip on it. It always seems like he is rainbowing it to his receivers. For a QB that is supposed to have so much arm strength, what is the reason for this. It looks as though it takes forever to get there and I just pray that a defender is not running it down to intercept it. Did he throw this way in college as well and if so, I can't imagine this is what a franchise QB is supposed to look like. It seems to work from time to time but I have been waiting to see him really take command on these throws and it never happens......anybody?

 

This is not true. He lofts some passes--as with the long one to Goodwin that he should have caught--it dropped perfectly into his hands, but Goodwin got destroyed by the safety and muffed it. But other passes, like the 28-yarder to Chandler down the middle (I believe on the same drive), or several of the middle-of-the field passes to Woods, he throws it much more on a line.

 

Go back and look at the tape if you don't believe me.

[Just in Atlanta]

Rookie. His in-game footwork will improve , the game will slow down, and you'll see the zip then. the kid is so in over his head right now… it will come… we knew we'd have to suffer through this. I just hope he is isn't Christian Ponder 2.0. He has some really fine traits that I hope he builds on. there's that word again….. hope.

What are his fine traits? I don't see many. Calm demeanor. He does seem to have the arm strength, especially compared to Fitz. Like you, I also hope, though.

 

But he honestly looks like he's playing in slow motion compared to even Chad Henne or Goofy Stork (Glennon). Even when he runs. Roethlisberger last night, watching him run around, no comparison...he's ferocious...EJ, like 3/4 speed. EJ's ball delivery is no different: Rainbows. I found myself calling him "Rainbow Bright" yesterday. Some analyst said he had "slow eyes." What an apt description.

 

Also, while he detected the rush better vs. the Jags, he still seems to not have that pocket presence that any starting QB needs to happen. Is this something you develop? Or just have? Have to think it's the latter.

 

Worst, he doesn't seem to be able to instinctively know how to take a hit or avoid one. One play yesterday, he slid 5 yards away from the nearest hit. Other times, he just seems to get hit awkwardly when he doesn't need to. It's tough to explain. Does anyone else see this?

[Max997]

He tends to aim his throws rather then firing it in there prob due to being inaccurate

[Dorkington]

Because when he zips it the ball seems to hit the recievers in the head or go thru their hands.

 

This is what I've noticed also. When he does put some zip on it, it seems to surprise our WRs more often than not.

[Boatdrinks]

He tends to aim his throws rather then firing it in there prob due to being inaccurate

I disagree. The inaccuracy stems from the mechanical issues. Not a lack of arm strength/physical talent a la Fitzpatrick This should be correctable, and the reason EJM was seen as unpolished. A real QB coach should be hired by the Bills if they wish to get the most out of Manuel. He appears to guide /aim his throws due to his lack of classic follow through. His feet get out of whack in the face of pressure. He would improve most by A. use a classic delivery with follow through to improve accuracy,placement. B) be mindful of footwork and step/climb pocket in face of rush. Many far less mobile QB's than EJM use this technique their whole careers, though the Bills LG issues allow too much pressure up the middle which is the one issue for pocket climbers. C. A big WR in the Jeffery/ Marshall model to create a matchup problem for defenses and allow EJM to be less concerned about being perfect/ just throw the ball up there and let WR make a play. This would do a lot for his confidence/ chemistry with a WR which has yet to develop.

[Jauronimo]

If we were to quantify the problem, I'd say EJ would benefit from 15% more zip at the expense of loft. I think he could still stand to benefit from increasing his touch to zip ratio on passes less than 10 yards, however. I think zip vs loft vs touch really depends on the route.

[Mr. WEO]

A real QB coach should be hired by the Bills if they wish to get the most out of Manuel.develop.

 

A guy like......David Lee.

 

I agree with the OP. Little zip on EJ's pass. Check out Kaep's TD pass to Davis yesterday. A laser. EJ doesn't have that kind of arm.

 

If we were to quantify the problem, I'd say EJ would benefit from 15% more zip at the expense of loft. I think he could still stand to benefit from increasing his touch to zip ratio on passes less than 10 yards, however. I think zip vs loft vs touch really depends on the route.

 

Awesome!

Edited December 16, 2013 by Mr. WEO

[5 Wide]

I disagree. The inaccuracy stems from the mechanical issues. Not a lack of arm strength/physical talent a la Fitzpatrick This should be correctable, and the reason EJM was seen as unpolished. A real QB coach should be hired by the Bills if they wish to get the most out of Manuel. He appears to guide /aim his throws due to his lack of classic follow through. His feet get out of whack in the face of pressure. He would improve most by A. use a classic delivery with follow through to improve accuracy,placement. B) be mindful of footwork and step/climb pocket in face of rush. Many far less mobile QB's than EJM use this technique their whole careers, though the Bills LG issues allow too much pressure up the middle which is the one issue for pocket climbers. C. A big WR in the Jeffery/ Marshall model to create a matchup problem for defenses and allow EJM to be less concerned about being perfect/ just throw the ball up there and let WR make a play. This would do a lot for his confidence/ chemistry with a WR which has yet to develop.

You're definitely spot on about the footwork issues, however to me, it's both. His footwork is bad, and he's not cutting loose. He doesn't need to step perfectly into every throw to put some heat on it. His follow through looks abbreviated to me because he is aiming.

[Dan]

 

What are his fine traits? I don't see many. Calm demeanor. He does seem to have the arm strength, especially compared to Fitz. Like you, I also hope, though.

 

But he honestly looks like he's playing in slow motion compared to even Chad Henne or Goofy Stork (Glennon). Even when he runs. Roethlisberger last night, watching him run around, no comparison...he's ferocious...EJ, like 3/4 speed. EJ's ball delivery is no different: Rainbows. I found myself calling him "Rainbow Bright" yesterday. Some analyst said he had "slow eyes." What an apt description.

 

Also, while he detected the rush better vs. the Jags, he still seems to not have that pocket presence that any starting QB needs to happen. Is this something you develop? Or just have? Have to think it's the latter.

 

Worst, he doesn't seem to be able to instinctively know how to take a hit or avoid one. One play yesterday, he slid 5 yards away from the nearest hit. Other times, he just seems to get hit awkwardly when he doesn't need to. It's tough to explain. Does anyone else see this?

A lot of that, I attribute to being a rookie and the game moving to fast for him. It looks to me like he's trying to process everything rather than just play... which is to be expected from a rookie. But, hopefully, he makes strides in reading defenses and understamding what he has to do and adjusting to his receivers and the current game situation and all else.

[chris heff]

He tends to aim his throws rather then firing it in there prob due to being inaccurate

I been saying this since preseason. You know when he doesn't aim? In the two minute drill.

Edited December 16, 2013 by chris heff

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

This is not true. He lofts some passes--as with the long one to Goodwin that he should have caught--it dropped perfectly into his hands, but Goodwin got destroyed by the safety and muffed it. But other passes, like the 28-yarder to Chandler down the middle (I believe on the same drive), or several of the middle-of-the field passes to Woods, he throws it much more on a line.

 

Go back and look at the tape if you don't believe me.

Goodwin has great speed. He's almost always gonna be faster than the db trying to cover him. If you're gonna throw it to him deep, the longer the ball is in the air, the more separation Goodwin will usually get (assuming the ball is not under thrown).

 

Laser would be appropriate if you were trying to hit him in the window behind the corner but in front of the safety, but Goodwin is fast enough to get behind a lot of safeties, too, because they will underestimate his speed.

[chris heff]

 

I disagree. The inaccuracy stems from the mechanical issues. Not a lack of arm strength/physical talent a la Fitzpatrick This should be correctable, and the reason EJM was seen as unpolished. A real QB coach should be hired by the Bills if they wish to get the most out of Manuel. He appears to guide /aim his throws due to his lack of classic follow through. His feet get out of whack in the face of pressure. He would improve most by A. use a classic delivery with follow through to improve accuracy,placement. B) be mindful of footwork and step/climb pocket in face of rush. Many far less mobile QB's than EJM use this technique their whole careers, though the Bills LG issues allow too much pressure up the middle which is the one issue for pocket climbers. C. A big WR in the Jeffery/ Marshall model to create a matchup problem for defenses and allow EJM to be less concerned about being perfect/ just throw the ball up there and let WR make a play. This would do a lot for his confidence/ chemistry with a WR which has yet to develop.

I don't get the no QB coach.

[zow2]

If we were to quantify the problem, I'd say EJ would benefit from 15% more zip at the expense of loft. I think he could still stand to benefit from increasing his touch to zip ratio on passes less than 10 yards, however. I think zip vs loft vs touch really depends on the route.

 

I disagree to an extent. His deep passes need more loft to allow the WR's to run under the ball. He did this perfectly on that pass to Goodwin that was dropped. Earlier in the year his deep passes had such a low trajectory they would sail out of bounds.

As for zip, he threw a nice one to Woods in the middle of the field early in the 4th for about 20 yards. That was maybe his best and hardest pass into a window.

 

Overall though, he does kind of aim the ball and takes something off it on many passes. Rodgers and Brady throw with much more zip. Hopefully when the game slows down for EJ he will start playing instictive football and chuck the ball instead of aiming and trying to limit every little mistake (that tends to backfire).

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

I have been noticing for a few weeks now that when EJ throws the ball, there is barely any zip on it. It always seems like he is rainbowing it to his receivers. For a QB that is supposed to have so much arm strength, what is the reason for this. It looks as though it takes forever to get there and I just pray that a defender is not running it down to intercept it. Did he throw this way in college as well and if so, I can't imagine this is what a franchise QB is supposed to look like. It seems to work from time to time but I have been waiting to see him really take command on these throws and it never happens......anybody?

I've ben saying this all year. Why take something off the ball if you have a great arm? Only increases chances of something bad happening if you are accuaate throwing the ball....

[Jauronimo]

I disagree to an extent. His deep passes need more loft to allow the WR's to run under the ball. He did this perfectly on that pass to Goodwin that was dropped. Earlier in the year his deep passes had such a low trajectory they would sail out of bounds.

As for zip, he threw a nice one to Woods in the middle of the field early in the 4th for about 20 yards. That was maybe his best and hardest pass into a window.

 

Overall though, he does kind of aim the ball and takes something off it on many passes. Rodgers and Brady throw with much more zip. Hopefully when the game slows down for EJ he will start playing instictive football and chuck the ball instead of aiming and trying to limit every little mistake (that tends to backfire).

In my opinion the deep balls which sailed out of bounds would not have benefited from more loft unless he was trying to play a high fade and let the wind shape the pass back into the field of play. From the way his feet are lined up, I don't think EJ is attempting to shape his passes like that. I would concede as much as 25% more zip to loft, but thats as far as I'm willing to go.

 

As far as EJ's intermediate outs to Woods, I'll have to take another look at the coverage and see if he had to drop the ball over an LB or man in zone. Since the ball was an easy catch for Woods, didn't disrupt his timing and was in no danger of being picked off, I don't think it warrants much criticism.

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

I never get the "Wow" effect watching EJ throw the ball like I do for other QBs that have strong arms, or at least show it during games....