Measuring EJ's progress

[BigBuff423]

So if EJ has a good game against a good defense, it doesn't count. Got it.

 

And this whole win-loss thing entirely on a QB is so flawed. Brady led NE down the field and scored a td to put them up in the game late in the game. The defense then allowed Tannehill to drive and score the winning td. He passed for 364 yards, yet according to you, he's a loser. Alex Smith didn't led his offense to a td against the Bills and his offense was outgained by 200 yards by an offense led by Jeff Tuel. Yet, Smith is a winner?

 

Also, Russell Wilson (I know you knew he was great right away) passed for 205 or less in 10 of his 16 starts as a rookie. http://espn.go.com/n.../russell-wilson

 

 

 

It's to point out that one of the best QBs in the league can struggle on ths road.

 

 

 

The throw to Goodwin was beautiful. And his downfield passing definitely needs work but since the Jets game, I can see signs of improving. Some of you are underestimating how much practice means to a QB, especially a rookie. Manuel has missed a month and a half of practice. That means he hasn't been working on his timing with his receivers. Also, Stevie, Woods, and Goodwin have dealt with their own injuries.

 

All good and valid points for the argument that EJ simply needs more time and more experience. This, is the heartbeat of what BILLS' fans are missing due to their decade plus of frustration and disappointment. It's like trying to trust the next girlfriend after the last one was slappin nuts with one of your buddies, you "know" you can't distrust the current girl, but the horrific memory of your last girlfriend takin' it from your pal just won't leave your mind. EJ may very well be different, in terms of talent, leadership, and mental acumen to adjust to the NFL...problem is, too many times the previous QBs have left us jaded and unyielding in our ability to trust that EJ *CAN* be different...letting time tell this story is the hardest thing for a BILLS fan right now, because it's time and past experiences that have left us with utter disappointment.

[The Big Cat]

Lawson and Hughes share one position. Neither is a full time starter.....as I said. Branch was a reserve, but Carrington got hurt. Yeah, Leonhard and Robey have contributed but Searcy and Brooks did last year too and nobody was using that as an excuse for underachieving.

 

The offense has also turned over very few starting positions. In addition to QB, they have one new starting OL position....which they attempted to fill from within with Colin Brown.......a new starting WR in Woods.

 

I know people want to pretend that Goodwin is a starter but Graham gets most of the snaps.

 

Most of the time we are still looking at the same players Buddy(and in some cases Levy) brought to the team.

 

I really don't care that the reserves are new(or coming off IR like Easley)........in fact, it was just a flat out mistake to come in with that many young players in reserve roles.

 

I think you're kind of splitting hairs to make your point, and it's not really worth arguing whether or not the roster has been blown up.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I don't see much progress. He looks the same as he did against NE and CAR at the start of the season.

OK. So he doesn't look better than he did in one win against a SB contender and one tough loss in his pro debut against the perennial division champs?

 

I recall him looking pretty good in the Jets game, too, but let's not be objective here; the pitchforks are sharp and the torches have been lit.

[26CornerBlitz]

Manuel spoke to offense after Tampa loss

 

After one of their most embarrassing performances of the season the Bills’ captains addressed the team about their concerns with player accountability, professionalism and commitment to team. The players responded this week with a winning effort against the Jaguars. But it wasn’t just the captains who spoke early last week. EJ Manuel made a promise to his offensive teammates leading up to the Jacksonville game as well.

 

Making his weekly appearance on Bills flagship station WGR Sportsradio 550, Fred Jackson revealed that EJ Manuel got in front of his unit and assured them that he would redouble his efforts to be better on the field moving forward.

 

“He addressed the team last week, or the offense anyway and he told us he was going to work harder than he has ever worked before,” said Jackson. ”That showed this weekend. It showed that he knew what was going on in every situation. Anytime you get a young guy that’s willing to put in that extra work and knows that he has to it’s going to make him better. We saw that on the field this weekend. He played really well for us. There are always things that are going to need improvement, but it’s hard to play perfect in anything.”

Edited December 16, 2013 by 26CornerBlitz

[Not at the table Karlos]

 

 

Lawson and Hughes share one position. Neither is a full time starter.....as I said. Branch was a reserve, but Carrington got hurt. Yeah, Leonhard and Robey have contributed but Searcy and Brooks did last year too and nobody was using that as an excuse for underachieving.

 

Lawson is a full time starter and Hughes plays the other OLB position on the opposite side. We don't play a straight up 3-4, 4-3 or any other combination so who starts and where all depends on the personnel group we use. But Lawson has been the starter at one OLB(I want to sayROLB)for a majority of the games.

[BillsVet]

So if EJ has a good game against a good defense, it doesn't count. Got it.

 

It counts, but not as much as some would like it to be in their continued attempt to defend all things Bills. I just subscribe to the notion it's acceptable to criticize a franchise that is either rebuilding for the second time in 4 seasons or still on rebuild 1 extension 2. Either way, I'll be objective until they string more than 1 win in a row together, which they haven't done at all this season.

 

And this whole win-loss thing entirely on a QB is so flawed. Brady led NE down the field and scored a td to put them up in the game late in the game. The defense then allowed Tannehill to drive and score the winning td. He passed for 364 yards, yet according to you, he's a loser. Alex Smith didn't led his offense to a td against the Bills and his offense was outgained by 200 yards by an offense led by Jeff Tuel. Yet, Smith is a winner?

 

What does Alex Smith, Ryan Tannehill, Tom Brady, and Jeff Tuel have to do with any of this?

 

Also, Russell Wilson (I know you knew he was great right away) passed for 205 or less in 10 of his 16 starts as a rookie. http://espn.go.com/n.../russell-wilson

 

QB's aren't judged on stats, but some of them can serve as metrics to indicate where they're trending. Yet, W's and L's are assigned more to the QB than any other individual or unit on the field. Besides, Wilson's improvement within the season was tremendous, while Manuel's is no more than pedestrian if at all.

 

It's to point out that one of the best QBs in the league can struggle on ths road.

 

A conflation of the argument. Road teams typically are at a disadvantage, which is an even greater conflation than your example. LOL.

[Leelee Phoenix]

Also, Russell Wilson (I know you knew he was great right away) passed for 205 or less in 10 of his 16 starts as a rookie. http://espn.go.com/n.../russell-wilson

Please PLEASE stop with the Wilson comparisons. You're banging against a wall.

[Thurmal34]

Lawson and Hughes share one position.

 

Incorrect.

 

This must be one of those "rare occasions".

[John from Riverside]

Lawson and Hughes share one position. Neither is a full time starter.....as I said. Branch was a reserve, but Carrington got hurt. Yeah, Leonhard and Robey have contributed but Searcy and Brooks did last year too and nobody was using that as an excuse for underachieving.

 

The offense has also turned over very few starting positions. In addition to QB, they have one new starting OL position....which they attempted to fill from within with Colin Brown.......a new starting WR in Woods.

 

I know people want to pretend that Goodwin is a starter but Graham gets most of the snaps.

 

Most of the time we are still looking at the same players Buddy(and in some cases Levy) brought to the team.

 

I really don't care that the reserves are new(or coming off IR like Easley)........in fact, it was just a flat out mistake to come in with that many young players in reserve roles.

 

You are totally cherry picking there and you know it

 

1) Yes, 2 passing and 1 rushing TD's. Against the league's 27th best defense.

2) A loss is a loss is a loss. Russell Wilson beat NE in his first try for the record, which doesn't factor into this conversation, but it's a technique you've used frequently.

3) Doesn't matter. That was 3 months ago and it's his highest passing yardage game of the year. Makes the argument that the progress isn't there, especially when 5 of his 9 (completed) games featured 200 yards or less passing. If this were 1955, I'd be OK with that, but we're in a pass-happy era, as you undoubtedly know.

 

1 - Its still an NFL defense...for a team that had won 3 straight

2 - So let me see if I have this straight.....a win is not a win unless its a top opponenet......and a loss is just a loss. JESUS. We are trying to evaluate PROGRESS here not if they are gonna win the super bowl

3 - ALL games matter.......

 

Most important post I've seen, someone who was actually at the game. Shame we will be picking 10th and miss out on Bridgewater and Manziel. Typical Bills. Just good enough to not get any better.

 

Its a shame that he was only missing players for a quarter......

[Ozymandius]

I was just commenting on someone's ridiculous statement

 

I am hardly the first person on this board to point out that Badol is one of our smartest posters.

 

What's actually "ridiculous" is you focusing so much on that compliment. Is your self esteem so low that you can't handle when someone else receives praise? There, there, son. I'll keep an eye on you, and when you start posting insightful material, I'll throw a compliment your way as well. Don't commit suicide over this.

[John from Riverside]

You are confused if you think I am emotional about it. But why is it *ridiculous* for someone to say I am "one of the smartest posters on this or any football board"? Because now, not only must you be a mensa member to understand the complexities of the game of football.....but you ALSO have to be a genius to be one of the smartest posters on a football board?

 

As for my wide-right opinions......by all means, point them out. I've been wrong before but it's pretty rare. And there is an underlying reason for that.....I don't interject my opnion about everything like a lot of the posters here. If I don't have an educated opinion on it.....I don't jump into an argument. Some people have to have a take on everything even if it is just to be contrary or nitpick because they don't like how the message was presented.

 

To take the negative side of a team that hasnt made the playoffs for a decade really isnt that difficult my fellow bills brethren.....

[The Big Cat]

You are totally cherry picking there and you know it

 

 

 

1 - Its still an NFL defense...for a team that had won 3 straight

2 - So let me see if I have this straight.....a win is not a win unless its a top opponenet......and a loss is just a loss. JESUS. We are trying to evaluate PROGRESS here not if they are gonna win the super bowl

3 - ALL games matter.......

 

 

 

Its a shame that he was only missing players for a quarter......

 

Yeah, try telling the Panthers how much that game didn't matter. It's not like a win there would put them at the top of their division with a first round bye heading into week 16...

[John from Riverside]

I am hardly the first person on this board to point out that Badol is one of our smartest posters.

 

What's actually "ridiculous" is you focusing so much on that compliment. Is your self esteem so low that you can't handle when someone else receives praise? There, there, son. I'll keep an eye on you, and when you start posting insightful material, I'll throw a compliment your way as well. Don't commit suicide over this.

 

I find it interesting that you approach your response to the topic with an attack......its interesting how some posters can only do that in response.

[dave mcbride]

Back to the issue at hand: all things Manuel. An interesting factoid: the guy that replaced him at FSU this season, Jameis Winston, pitches for the FSU baseball team as a reliever (27 innings in 17 games as a freshman). FSU is a very good program. His fastball is 92 mph, which is good for that level, although he allegedly topped out at 100 mph once. My point is that it's far harder to be regarded as an accurate pitcher than an accurate QB, and the fact that he had a 3.00 ERA last season in a stacked ACC conference is impressive. That guy is the real deal, and if he plays in the NFL it's very likely that he'll be great. He was drafted by the Rangers in the 15th round last season, but I can see him going higher the next time he comes up. The question is whether he'll play baseball or football. I suspect the latter given that he'll likely go #1 overall, but if I was equally good in both sports I'd definitely choose the former - longer career, more money, and fewer injuries. We'll know more after this coming college baseball season. It's worth keeping an eye on.

Edited December 16, 2013 by dave mcbride

[Thurmal34]

Back to the issue at hand: all things Manuel. An interesting factoid:

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/factoid?s=t

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

 

Players in this league usually have it or they don't. Once a blue moon you end up with a Brady or Montana; but you mostly get a Leaf or a Carr. The Qbs who do take a while to develop are players like Gannon who take years to develop and you get a couple good seasons - thanks but no thanks. If you want to win you keep going after that franchise guy...

 

An honest question; do you think our current coaching staff can help him with this? I have little faith in them on the offensive side of the ball...

 

Start naming the QBs who were great as rookies. I'll help.

 

http://www.sportingcharts.com/articles/nfl/top-20-rookie-passing-seasons-of-last-20-years.aspx

 

The "have it or you don't" perspective is just not consistant with reality.

 

As of this moment, EJ has the tenth best rookie QB performance in over 20 years for QBs with over 300 attempts. There is absolutely no evidence, 0, zilch, none that he cannot be a very successful NFL QB. In fact where he appears on this list suggests his odds are not so bad.

 

IMO, There is no evidence that his rookie campaign to date validates any projection, other than he is among players that have went on to be very good and players whose careers have fizzled. And yes I've seen him play too.

 

 

 

 

[The Big Cat]

Start naming the QBs who were great as rookies. I'll help.

 

http://www.sportingc...t-20-years.aspx

 

The "have it or you don't" perspective is just not consistant with reality.

 

As of this moment, EJ has the tenth best rookie QB performance in over 20 years for QBs with over 300 attempts. There is absolutely no evidence, 0, zilch, none that he cannot be a very successful NFL QB. In fact where he appears on this list suggests his odds are not so bad.

 

IMO, There is no evidence that his rookie campaign to date validates any projection, other than he is among players that have went on to be very good and players whose careers have fizzled. And yes I've seen him play too.

 

Ha...So you're telling me, EJ, having already broken the Bills rookie TD record, is well on his way to a top-20--may be even top-10--all-time NFL QB performance?

 

According to 20 years' list, if the season ended today, EJ (without adding in other rookies this year) would be:

 

QB Rating--10th

Comp. Pct--9th

YPA--18th

YPG--13th

AYA--6th

TD/INT--T8th (ish)

[Dorkington]

When it comes to the critics, being in the middle of the pack in those rankings won't really matter. The only three people he'll get compared to are Luck, Wilson and RGIII. All made the playoffs in their first year. Two of them repeated (while RGIII is dealing with drama/slump). EJ has gotten injured twice, and lead the Bills to another losing record while playing on a team with a "dominant defense" (according to certain experts). In the end, it doesn't look good for him.

 

Personally, I see bits and pieces of a good QB. But then I also see a lot of problems. I'm all for giving him time, but I also don't want to sit back and "settle" on him. So if the Bills have the opportunity, either in the draft, or FA, to get a QB that is either better, or equal to him, they should take that opportunity and let there be a QB competition next year. EJ hasn't earned the "unquestioned starter" title, yet.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

 

If it was a simple as a "choice" then Ivy League educated Ryan Fitzpatrick would have been able to convert David Lee's work into results.

 

Fitz didn't have the physical talent to pull it off.

 

EJ has a different skill set.......he shouldn't be limited in the long game by arm strength the way Fitz was.......but if it was easy for him he would have done it by now.

 

It's not like he got discovered tossing luggage around at the airport last spring......this guy was part of the national football camp system thru HS and played a ton at FSU over 4 years. Like I said, if it was easy for him he would have cleaned it up by now.

 

Hopefully he does it this offseason but I don't think putting another prospect of simialar promise into competition with him will do anything but help.

 

It absolutely is a choice and Fitz is a poor example to attempt backing up your stance.

 

None of these guys make the nfl without some physical talent. While Brady has been spending his offseason with his own QB coach every day perfecting mechanics and technique, Fitz liked to spend offseasons "away" for the game to recharge. He admitted this openly that he'd hold a few workouts with teammates but wouldn't be working perpetually and obsessively to get better.

 

Fitz never even worked with a mechanics and technique guy, by his own admission, until his last season as a Bill.

 

I am not faulting anyone for their choices, but to be the best in a league of the best it takes a burning desire to win and a lot of confidence.

 

 

[ColdBlueNorth]

I am hardly the first person on this board to point out that Badol is one of our smartest posters.

 

What's actually "ridiculous" is you focusing so much on that compliment. Is your self esteem so low that you can't handle when someone else receives praise? There, there, son. I'll keep an eye on you, and when you start posting insightful material, I'll throw a compliment your way as well. Don't commit suicide over this.

 

Just thought it was a bit over the top and funny - still do BTW.

 

Not fishing for compliments from you, but you can feel free to agree or disagree with my posts - its all good.