Measuring EJ's progress

[John from Riverside]

So let me get your opinion straight...........you think EJ has the tools to make it but you could be wrong?

 

Me too.

 

If that's all you got then you really have no basis for arguing aside from being butt-hurt.

 

 

 

They didn't blow the roster up........not even close.......they added one full-time starter to the defense...Kiko Alonso. 4 of 5 OL starters returned, top 3 rushers returned, top 3 receivers returned.

 

More SHOULD have been done.......but the reality is that they changed coaching staffs but this is still year 4 of Buddy's plan personnel-wise.

 

Even when teams "blow teams up" they dont start from complete scratch their are too many players under contract......there are SEVERAL new player making contributions this year and that doesnt even take into account the complete coaching and management overhall?

 

Do you really want get into this? Because what you mentioned is about the only thing that DIDNT change

[BADOLBILZ]

Throughout the course if the season, EJ has looked better on throws to receivers that are from the right hash marks to the right sideline than he has on throws to the left side of the field. Today was no exception. Surely, we can all recall some good/great throws to the left side of the field...like the two long throws consecutively against the Jets down the left side for the TD drive. However, the general trend on EJ is he has thrown better to the right side of the field.

 

This is due to his mechanics and footwork issues. A right handed QB will naturally throw better to the right side then the left, especially if the QB has issues with mechanics. (Remember Fitzpatrick?).

 

The fact that this has not improved over the course of 10 starts is concerning. Is any one on the board able to think of a QB who has overcome these type of issues?

 

Frankly, we need EJ to be "the guy" at QB. We have enough other holes to deal with. Hope he is, but I can't think of a player who has overcome the mechanical issues/flaws that he has and become a franchise QB. Can anyone think of an example?

 

I gotta' say right side or not I was relieved to see a decent throw down the sideline to Goodwin after some awful throws that way in recent weeks. He definitely has shown a right-dominant tendency. He has thrown some absolute garbage to his left. I agree it is mechanical. He doesn't move well in the pocket. Watch Brady move in the pocket....when he throws, his feet and shoulders are in line with the target. EJ sometimes throws across his body when going left. His footwork is pathetic. It reminds me of former bust OT Mike Williams when the Bills drafted him. Williams came in and he actually crossed his feet when dropping in pass protection. Just something so basic you never see it at the pro level......but Williams played in a heavy run offense at Texas and was a physical mismatch at that level so he got away with it. McNally worked that out of him, but for a QB footwork is more about the brain connecting with the feet so it remains to be seen watch EJ can do.

 

Also, much like Fitz his best longer throws are over the middle. For Fitz, it was because he lacked range. Kind of like a guy who can hit a 15" jumper with ease but can't hit from 3 to save his life. The throw over the middle is the shortest "long throw".

[BillsVet]

So in order for it to be considered progress it has to be against one of the top teams? You can only play the opponent in front of you. How about because it was on the road and it happened even though the defense was giving up big plays.....

 

Lets keep in mind that this team has not been good on the road this year.....so yes any road win (even againt the jags) should be considered progress no matter how slight it is.

 

I remember reading on this very board about the concept of "progress" back in 2007. It was the feel-good mindset of the moment, which excused DJ's exasperating offenses and bend but don't break defenses. Yet, it didn't add up to anything because they didn't have a real QB, the coaching wasn't good, and the team didn't have a real GM. 6 years and zero playoff appearances later, the QB position remains in flux, the coaching isn't as solid as we'd hoped, and the GM just emerged from the shadow of Buddy Nix.

 

Drew Brees is 3-4 on the road. It's a different animal than playing at home.

 

Trash the W all you want but seeing EJ & the players smile was good to see.

 

This is sophistry. Referencing Drew Brees' road record after the bills won against one of the league's worst teams. Really?

[BADOLBILZ]

Even when teams "blow teams up" they dont start from complete scratch their are too many players under contract......there are SEVERAL new player making contributions this year and that doesnt even take into account the complete coaching and management overhall?

 

Do you really want get into this? Because what you mentioned is about the only thing that DIDNT change

 

The most important position was changed but overall the turnover at starting positions was not much different than the year before.

 

Denying that is just being stubborn.

 

The idea that the roster is too young to be expected to win or that the turnover was insurmountable is a built in defense mechanism for Bills fans who don't want to deal with the disappointment.

 

Nobody said the Bills blew up the roster when Gilmore, Glenn and Graham were starting as rookies and Mario and Mark Anderson were added as free agents. The anticipation was playoffs......actually.

[Jkgobills]

 

 

I gotta' say right side or not I was relieved to see a decent throw down the sideline to Goodwin after some awful throws that way in recent weeks. He definitely has shown a right-dominant tendency. He has thrown some absolute garbage to his left. I agree it is mechanical. He doesn't move well in the pocket. Watch Brady move in the pocket....when he throws, his feet and shoulders are in line with the target. EJ sometimes throws across his body when going left. His footwork is pathetic. It reminds me of former bust OT Mike Williams when the Bills drafted him. Williams came in and he actually crossed his feet when dropping in pass protection. Just something so basic you never see it at the pro level......but Williams played in a heavy run offense at Texas and was a physical mismatch at that level so he got away with it. McNally worked that out of him, but for a QB footwork is more about the brain connecting with the feet so it remains to be seen watch EJ can do.

 

Also, much like Fitz his best longer throws are over the middle. For Fitz, it was because he lacked range. Kind of like a guy who can hit a 15" jumper with ease but can't hit from 3 to save his life. The throw over the middle is the shortest "long throw".

 

Brady and P Manning are masters of pocket mobility while maintaining proper throwing mechanics and posture. It pains me to give Brady a compliment, but that SOB is good.

 

I have tried to block the horror that was Mike Williams from my mind. Your comparison of an O line player and a QB is intriguing and in this case quite valid. Both Williams and Manuel came into the league with the size, strength, and athletic skills that made the Bills spend high draft picks on them. Williams was undone by his poor technique, and a lack of passion for the game. Manuel has the passion, but is plagued similarly by technique issues.

 

 

 

 

[The Big Cat]

 

 

The most important position was changed but overall the turnover at starting positions was not much different than the year before.

 

Denying that is just being stubborn.

 

The idea that the roster is too young to be expected to win or that the turnover was insurmountable is a built in defense mechanism for Bills fans who don't want to deal with the disappointment.

 

Nobody said the Bills blew up the roster when Gilmore, Glenn and Graham were starting as rookies and Mario and Mark Anderson were added as free agents. The anticipation was playoffs......actually.

 

That's fine, but your claim that the D only added one starter in Kiko was patently false. Manny Lawson and Hughes: both starters. It also added consistent rotational guys Leonhard, Robey and Branch.

 

All told, the roster saw 50% turnover. Is that not blowing it up??

[BillsVet]

1) it was 3 tds

 

2) he left the NE game with the lead

 

3) he put up 296 against the #2 defense in Carolina.

 

1) Yes, 2 passing and 1 rushing TD's. Against the league's 27th best defense.

2) A loss is a loss is a loss. Russell Wilson beat NE in his first try for the record, which doesn't factor into this conversation, but it's a technique you've used frequently.

3) Doesn't matter. That was 3 months ago and it's his highest passing yardage game of the year. Makes the argument that the progress isn't there, especially when 5 of his 9 (completed) games featured 200 yards or less passing. If this were 1955, I'd be OK with that, but we're in a pass-happy era, as you undoubtedly know.

Edited December 16, 2013 by BillsVet

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

 

I honestly don't think EJ has it. I hope he does...but I just don't see it.

 

When you start talking about developing a guy or fixing an issue it never works out. The QBs that make it usually just have to learn how to slow the defense down, make reads etc...Physical tools and pocket movement are almost never fixed....maybe hidden or minimized by creative coaching, but here are you really going with that?

 

 

I honestly don't think EJ has it. I hope he does...but I just don't see it.

 

When you start talking about developing a guy or fixing an issue it never works out. The QBs that make it usually just have to learn how to slow the defense down, make reads etc...Physical tools and pocket movement are almost never fixed....maybe hidden or minimized by creative coaching, but here are you really going with that?

 

Drew Brees footwork and pocket movement was horrendous in San Diego, so was Keaps his first few starts. Brady was Barely a pro when he started.

 

Unlike what many think you don't drop from the womb a probowler. The best work their Arse off to fix flaws and get better. EJ will or he won't, but it's his choice how he spends his off season.

[Prickly Pete]

I think EJM played about as well as I expected, and don't think any conclusions can be reached from what we saw today. I didn't see any "progress" just a decent performance. I'm still looking for something from him that seems exceptional, some strength in his game to build upon.

 

I do think the next 2 games will give us a clearer picture of his potential.

 

Right now, I hope they draft another QB this coming draft. If a blue chip prospect is there in the 1st (doubt it. also doubt they would use the pick on one, unfortunately) I would like them to do it, regardless of how EJM plays.

 

More likely though, there will be a good 3rd/4th round prospect there, and I really hope they select one.

[Reed83HOF]

Drew Brees footwork and pocket movement was horrendous in San Diego, so was Keaps his first few starts. Brady was Barely a pro when he started.

 

Unlike what many think you don't drop from the womb a probowler. The best work their Arse off to fix flaws and get better. EJ will or he won't, but it's his choice how he spends his off season.

 

Players in this league usually have it or they don't. Once a blue moon you end up with a Brady or Montana; but you mostly get a Leaf or a Carr. The Qbs who do take a while to develop are players like Gannon who take years to develop and you get a couple good seasons - thanks but no thanks. If you want to win you keep going after that franchise guy...

 

An honest question; do you think our current coaching staff can help him with this? I have little faith in them on the offensive side of the ball...

[BADOLBILZ]

That's fine, but your claim that the D only added one starter in Kiko was patently false. Manny Lawson and Hughes: both starters. It also added consistent rotational guys Leonhard, Robey and Branch.

 

All told, the roster saw 50% turnover. Is that not blowing it up??

 

Lawson and Hughes share one position. Neither is a full time starter.....as I said. Branch was a reserve, but Carrington got hurt. Yeah, Leonhard and Robey have contributed but Searcy and Brooks did last year too and nobody was using that as an excuse for underachieving.

 

The offense has also turned over very few starting positions. In addition to QB, they have one new starting OL position....which they attempted to fill from within with Colin Brown.......a new starting WR in Woods.

 

I know people want to pretend that Goodwin is a starter but Graham gets most of the snaps.

 

Most of the time we are still looking at the same players Buddy(and in some cases Levy) brought to the team.

 

I really don't care that the reserves are new(or coming off IR like Easley)........in fact, it was just a flat out mistake to come in with that many young players in reserve roles.

[BADOLBILZ]

Drew Brees footwork and pocket movement was horrendous in San Diego, so was Keaps his first few starts. Brady was Barely a pro when he started.

 

Unlike what many think you don't drop from the womb a probowler. The best work their Arse off to fix flaws and get better. EJ will or he won't, but it's his choice how he spends his off season.

 

If it was a simple as a "choice" then Ivy League educated Ryan Fitzpatrick would have been able to convert David Lee's work into results.

 

Fitz didn't have the physical talent to pull it off.

 

EJ has a different skill set.......he shouldn't be limited in the long game by arm strength the way Fitz was.......but if it was easy for him he would have done it by now.

 

It's not like he got discovered tossing luggage around at the airport last spring......this guy was part of the national football camp system thru HS and played a ton at FSU over 4 years. Like I said, if it was easy for him he would have cleaned it up by now.

 

Hopefully he does it this offseason but I don't think putting another prospect of simialar promise into competition with him will do anything but help.

[ColdBlueNorth]

So let me get your opinion straight...........you think EJ has the tools to make it but you could be wrong?

 

Me too.

 

If that's all you got then you really have no basis for arguing aside from being butt-hurt.

 

Who's arguing?

 

Butt-hurt? From you disagreeing with my opinion earlier in the thread - seriously?

 

I was just commenting on someone's ridiculous statement, "Badol is one of the smartest posters on this or any football board. You know it. Everyone knows it.". I mean, c'mon...that is some funny stuff as clearly not "Everyone" agrees with that sentiment.

 

Sure, you have had some good insights and I have even enjoyed reading the emotional outbursts, but you have had your share of wide-rights just like the rest of us who have been here for longer than we care to admit.

 

Not sure what you mean by "If that's all you got". I have already stated my reasons in other posts for thinking that Manuel has the tools to become a solid QB, why rehash my own opinions when I believe that the only way to make more informed observations on whether he is progressing or regressing as a QB is to revisit this next year when he has more games under his belt. You have obviously made up your mind, so what's the point of arguing with you?

 

You do not seem to be the type of person that will change their opinion by simply engaging in more argument, so why waste my time providing more arguments?

 

Brady and P Manning are masters of pocket mobility while maintaining proper throwing mechanics and posture. It pains me to give Brady a compliment, but that SOB is good.

 

I have tried to block the horror that was Mike Williams from my mind. Your comparison of an O line player and a QB is intriguing and in this case quite valid. Both Williams and Manuel came into the league with the size, strength, and athletic skills that made the Bills spend high draft picks on them. Williams was undone by his poor technique, and a lack of passion for the game. Manuel has the passion, but is plagued similarly by technique issues.

 

Mike Williams was undone by KFC... the dude could not get down to playing weight which made him too slow and I believe he even tipped the scales at over 400 pounds at one point in his brief and dismal NFL career.

[QCity]

I don't see much progress. He looks the same as he did against NE and CAR at the start of the season.

[BADOLBILZ]

Who's arguing?

 

Butt-hurt? From you disagreeing with my opinion earlier in the thread - seriously?

 

I was just commenting on someone's ridiculous statement, "Badol is one of the smartest posters on this or any football board. You know it. Everyone knows it.". I mean, c'mon...that is some funny stuff as clearly not "Everyone" agrees with that sentiment.

 

Sure, you have had some good insights and I have even enjoyed reading the emotional outbursts, but you have had your share of wide-rights just like the rest of us who have been here for longer than we care to admit.

 

Not sure what you mean by "If that's all you got". I have already stated my reasons in other posts for thinking that Manuel has the tools to become a solid QB, why rehash my own opinions when I believe that the only way to make more informed observations on whether he is progressing or regressing as a QB is to revisit this next year when he has more games under his belt. You have obviously made up your mind, so what's the point of arguing with you?

 

You do not seem to be the type of person that will change their opinion by simply engaging in more argument, so why waste my time providing more arguments?

 

 

 

Mike Williams was undone by KFC... the dude could not get down to playing weight which made him too slow and I believe he even tipped the scales at over 400 pounds at one point in his brief and dismal NFL career.

 

You are confused if you think I am emotional about it. But why is it *ridiculous* for someone to say I am "one of the smartest posters on this or any football board"? Because now, not only must you be a mensa member to understand the complexities of the game of football.....but you ALSO have to be a genius to be one of the smartest posters on a football board?

 

As for my wide-right opinions......by all means, point them out. I've been wrong before but it's pretty rare. And there is an underlying reason for that.....I don't interject my opnion about everything like a lot of the posters here. If I don't have an educated opinion on it.....I don't jump into an argument. Some people have to have a take on everything even if it is just to be contrary or nitpick because they don't like how the message was presented.

[ColdBlueNorth]

I did not say you were emotional about this particular topic, OCD maybe.

 

However, we can use this topic as your game-deciding Superbowl kick - you are either on target, or wide right.

 

I will add your most derogatory EJ evaluation to my signature line for posterity.

 

You will either look like a rock star down the road and I will have to bear the burden of having your accurate opinion tattooed onto my posts for as long as you feel it is needed (got a feeling it would be there forever), or if I am right you will have a regular reminder that a few of your Mensa-like assessments do not pan out.

 

With all the odds stacked up against EJ (most rookie QB's don't pan out), how can you pass up a friendly bet like this.... fair enough?

[Buffalo Barbarian]

needs more consistency and to hit deep throws.

[8-8 Forever?]

I was at the game. For the first time I got to see the whole field as plays developed. EJ is worse than I thought. TJ, and Chandler spent the first half open. EJ dosent see wide open guys. WIDE OPEN. and if he does, you can't count on a good ball.

Most important post I've seen, someone who was actually at the game. Shame we will be picking 10th and miss out on Bridgewater and Manziel. Typical Bills. Just good enough to not get any better.

[K-9]

Drew Brees footwork and pocket movement was horrendous in San Diego, so was Keaps his first few starts. Brady was Barely a pro when he started.

 

Unlike what many think you don't drop from the womb a probowler. The best work their Arse off to fix flaws and get better. EJ will or he won't, but it's his choice how he spends his off season.

 

Good point.

 

I was pleased to see the way EJ responded to adversity yesterday. Perhaps the most important character aspect a QB can possess. EVERY quarterback is gonna face adversity in games at one point or another. From play to play, series to series, etc. The good ones tend to bounce back.

 

I don't know if EJ will ever develop into the QB we'd all like to see. That remains in the future to find out. But I would guarantee he will put in the work required to do so.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[C.Biscuit97]

1) Yes, 2 passing and 1 rushing TD's. Against the league's 27th best defense.

2) A loss is a loss is a loss. Russell Wilson beat NE in his first try for the record, which doesn't factor into this conversation, but it's a technique you've used frequently.

3) Doesn't matter. That was 3 months ago and it's his highest passing yardage game of the year. Makes the argument that the progress isn't there, especially when 5 of his 9 (completed) games featured 200 yards or less passing. If this were 1955, I'd be OK with that, but we're in a pass-happy era, as you undoubtedly know.

 

So if EJ has a good game against a good defense, it doesn't count. Got it.

 

And this whole win-loss thing entirely on a QB is so flawed. Brady led NE down the field and scored a td to put them up in the game late in the game. The defense then allowed Tannehill to drive and score the winning td. He passed for 364 yards, yet according to you, he's a loser. Alex Smith didn't led his offense to a td against the Bills and his offense was outgained by 200 yards by an offense led by Jeff Tuel. Yet, Smith is a winner?

 

Also, Russell Wilson (I know you knew he was great right away) passed for 205 or less in 10 of his 16 starts as a rookie. http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/14881/year/2012/russell-wilson

 

This is sophistry. Referencing Drew Brees' road record after the bills won against one of the league's worst teams. Really?

 

It's to point out that one of the best QBs in the league can struggle on ths road.

 

needs more consistency and to hit deep throws.

 

The throw to Goodwin was beautiful. And his downfield passing definitely needs work but since the Jets game, I can see signs of improving. Some of you are underestimating how much practice means to a QB, especially a rookie. Manuel has missed a month and a half of practice. That means he hasn't been working on his timing with his receivers. Also, Stevie, Woods, and Goodwin have dealt with their own injuries.