RevWarRifleman Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 dezertbill, good post & thanks for putting it on the board. It does 'put things in perspective' which is important not to lose sight of during these times. And of course, I like how you used history to prove your point! Go Bills!
8-8 Forever? Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 This is dumb. Comparing stats of qbs is dumb. Stats do not make a franchise qb. Jimbo was the unquestioned leader from day one. EJ is just trying to fit in and get by and improve. Jimbo was trying his heart out to make plays all over the field. EJ is trying not to mess up Jimbo was trying to be the greatest QB in history, from day one. EJ is trying to do his best or something. You can tell when you have a real franchise QB, even in his rookie year. And you can usually tell when you dont. This is what I am concerned about. EJ is just a great guy, but I want an edgy guy who wants to win more than anything is the world. Give me Johnny Football. And his WR Evans as well. Not sure EJ is the guy.
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 and yet that team was 4-12, with Kelly throwing crucial 4th qtr picks in at least 3 games that i remember. Wonder what this board would have done to him with those picks The same thing they are doing with EJ. In his 3rd year, Kelly threw 15 tds and 17 tds! And he was 28! He also didn't complete 60% of his passes until his 5th year when he was 30! http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00.htm
dave mcbride Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 The same thing they are doing with EJ. In his 3rd year, Kelly threw 15 tds and 17 tds! And he was 28! He also didn't complete 60% of his passes until his 5th year when he was 30! http://www.pro-footb.../K/KellJi00.htm You can't compare the 80s with now so much. The rules favor the QB far more than they did back then, and there were far more INTs thrown in that era. Anyway, Kelly's YPA was 7.5 that season.
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 This is what I am concerned about. EJ is just a great guy, but I want an edgy guy who wants to win more than anything is the world. Give me Johnny Football. And his WR Evans as well. Not sure EJ is the guy. Joe Montana was nicknamed Joe Cool. I like fire too but you're Qb can't lose his cool. Brady got ripped for that earlier this year. Cutler shoves his o linemen. I think Johnny Football's teammates like him but there are a lot of stories about how he is a total d bag. I'm fine with EJ's personality. youtube some of his pregame speeches at FSU.
plenzmd1 Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 You can't compare the 80s with now so much. The rules favor the QB far more than they did back then, and there were far more INTs thrown in that era. Anyway, Kelly's YPA was 7.5 that season. I agree Dave..but i think as an old timer one would have to agree Kelly had his faults in his first two years with the Bills.Prolly the opposite of EJ...Kelly willing to take too many risks, EJ not enough. I also think Kelly was the better pure passer, but I am willing to see if EJ can get his mechanics fixed...BTW, i only get the mechanics thing from listening to other people..i am no expert in that category
GG Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 The same thing they are doing with EJ. In his 3rd year, Kelly threw 15 tds and 17 tds! And he was 28! He also didn't complete 60% of his passes until his 5th year when he was 30! http://www.pro-footb.../K/KellJi00.htm Kelly also didn't have much talent to work with. The OL was raw, Greg Bell was his RB, and the WRs sucked, including a 2nd year Reed and underachieving Burckett. But the main difference was that Kelly got his INTs by stubbornly forcing the ball upfield. EJ has nowhere near the confidence of Kelly in '86.
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 Kelly also didn't have much talent to work with. The OL was raw, Greg Bell was his RB, and the WRs sucked, including a 2nd year Reed and underachieving Burckett. But the main difference was that Kelly got his INTs by stubbornly forcing the ball upfield. EJ has nowhere near the confidence of Kelly in '86. Like I said, he was really young during those days so I'll defer to you. But honest question: do you think EJ would benefit from being 26 and having played 2 years of pro football before he started a game in the NFL like Kelly? Kurt Warner said the best thing to happen to him was to start and play pro football even though he wasn't in the NFL. EJ is learning on job after missing 2 weeks of his first NFL training camp and a month of his first season. Call them excuses if you want but it's the truth. IF he looks like this next year, sure, draft another guy. But to have a mindset right now that he flat out isn't the guy is foolish IMO.
GG Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 Like I said, he was really young during those days so I'll defer to you. But honest question: do you think EJ would benefit from being 26 and having played 2 years of pro football before he started a game in the NFL like Kelly? Kurt Warner said the best thing to happen to him was to start and play pro football even though he wasn't in the NFL. EJ is learning on job after missing 2 weeks of his first NFL training camp and a month of his first season. Call them excuses if you want but it's the truth. IF he looks like this next year, sure, draft another guy. But to have a mindset right now that he flat out isn't the guy is foolish IMO. Yes, it's too early to give up on him. But the Bills would be foolish not to have a better backup plan than a Kevin Kolb next year. It's doubtful they will draft high enough to land one of the top 4 QBs, but they most absolutely have to take another QB early next year.
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 Yes, it's too early to give up on him. But the Bills would be foolish not to have a better backup plan than a Kevin Kolb next year. It's doubtful they will draft high enough to land one of the top 4 QBs, but they most absolutely have to take another QB early next year. Agreed on the Kolb part. Don't agree on the taking the QB early part. IF the choice is between a good TE in the 2nd or a Qb, I'm going TE. If in the 3rd, a guy like Aaron Murray is around, then I'm cool with it. But why will you be more patient with another guy if they struggle, like all rookies do?
GG Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 Agreed on the Kolb part. Don't agree on the taking the QB early part. IF the choice is between a good TE in the 2nd or a Qb, I'm going TE. If in the 3rd, a guy like Aaron Murray is around, then I'm cool with it. But why will you be more patient with another guy if they struggle, like all rookies do? There's more leeway for players at any other position to struggle. If the Bills decided to give the job to Manuel, then he better perform like a starting NFL QB. I have a hunch that a big part of his troubles is his belief that he has the job locked down and doesn't need to prove it every week. He needs solid competition in camp next year.
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) There's more leeway for players at any other position to struggle. If the Bills decided to give the job to Manuel, then he better perform like a starting NFL QB. I have a hunch that a big part of his troubles is his belief that he has the job locked down and doesn't need to prove it every week. He needs solid competition in camp next year. I really disagree with that. Everything I've heard about his character and his work ethic disputes that. He won the job over Kolb before he got injured. Edited December 10, 2013 by C.Biscuit97
GG Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 I really disagree with that. Everything I've heard about his character and his work ethic disputes that. He won the job over Kolb before he got injured. We're probably talking to different people then. Ask yourself why Hackett had completely different game plans for Lewis/Tuel than for EJ.
GunnerBill Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 I actually used to think like that but it's just not logical. What if the next guy you drafts struggles, as all rookies do? You just draft another one? At what point do you stop and say maybe we should give a guy more than a year to prove himself? San Diego got nothing for Brees. Now, you couldn't trade Brees for 3 1st rounders. Rivers is a pretty good QB and that's eased the blow a little bit. But how many SD fans wish they would have been a little more patient with Brees right now? P.S. In no way am I comparing EJ to Brees. But in Brees' first year as a starter (his 2nd year in the NFL), he threw 17 tds and 16 Ints. Correct. I made the point in another thread that you'd have been hard pushed to say after Peyton Manning's rookie year that he WAS the guy in Indi. They went 3-13 and he threw 28 INTs... if you draft another Quarterback in round 1 the next year you maybe end up with a competition that takes development time away from both guys and you fail to put a key piece of the puzzle in place.... the Colts got their running back for the next 6-7 years in round 1 the year after they drafted Peyton and then traded Marshall Faulk away for more picks that went on solid guys who contrivuted. If you just keep drafting Quarterbacks in Round 1 then hoping that they look like Franchise guys in year 1 it will be a never ending cycle. Although EJ was bad on Sunday, no doubt about that.
MarkyMannn Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 This is dumb. Comparing stats of qbs is dumb. Stats do not make a franchise qb. Jimbo was the unquestioned leader from day one. EJ is just trying to fit in and get by and improve. Jimbo was trying his heart out to make plays all over the field. EJ is trying not to mess up Jimbo was trying to be the greatest QB in history, from day one. EJ is trying to do his best or something. You can tell when you have a real franchise QB, even in his rookie year. And you can usually tell when you dont. This response should be a sticky for all the EJ apologists to refer to. Jimbo, you could tell from the beginning, was special. Ej shows little to nothing. All rookie QB's that become great show at least SOMETHING in their first year. No one is asking him to set the world on fire
todd Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 Jimbo was never a rookie with the Bills. He had two years of professional experience in the USFL before he stepped foot on a field in a Bills uniform. He was far more experienced than EJ in his "rookie" season. So the comparison, if anything, favors EJ because he's a less experienced QB performing at a similar level.
plenzmd1 Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 This response should be a sticky for all the EJ apologists to refer to. Jimbo, you could tell from the beginning, was special. Ej shows little to nothing. All rookie QB's that become great show at least SOMETHING in their first year. No one is asking him to set the world on fire I get what your saying, but recent ones who turned out different than their first year suggested Brees RG111(jury still out I agree) Eli Manning Payton Manning Vince Young Sanchez Henne Cassel Freeman OTOH, plenty of others who stunk it up and never got better...so i get both sides
Rubes Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 and yet that team was 4-12, with Kelly throwing crucial 4th qtr picks in at least 3 games that i remember. And the next year 7-8 in a strike shorten season...but they did not fire the whole damn team.. scoring only 7 in the last two games of the year when they still had a shot at the playoffs..again this place would have exploded! Wonder what this board would have done to him with those picks But you could tell...YOU COULD TELL
K D Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 I hope i am wrong, and happily for all concerned i am wrong all the #$%%$%@ time...but nonetheless, it is hard to imagine EJ making most of these plays. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvCqe0ulFWw Every one of these plays came from under center. Has Manuel ever even taken a snap under center in his life? Maybe we need to switch it up every now and then
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 But you could tell...YOU COULD TELL It's so easy to say that now. Could you tell after his 3rd season when he threw 15 tds, 17 ints? Of course Manuel won't be as good as Kelly. Very few QBs are. But people who can say one way or another at this point are full of it.
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