dezertbill Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 If you compare Jim Kelly's rookie season vs. EJ Manuel, here is where it stacks up so far.... Kelly 1986: 16 games Winning Pct: .250 Pass Yds/Gm: 224 Completion %: 59.4 Y/A: 7.49 TD/Int Ratio: 1.29 QB Rating: 83.3 Games in which offense scored 20 pts or more: 5 of 16 % of games with more interceptions than TD's: 31% Manuel 2013 9 games thus far Winning Pct: .333 Pass Yds/Gm: 198 Completion %: 57.8 Y/A: 6.31 TD/Int Ratio: 1.12 QB Rating: 75.4 Games in which offense scored 20 pts or more: 7 of 9 % of games with more interceptions than TD's: 22% In Jim Kelly's 8th game of his rookie campaign he was 13-26 for 166, 0 TD/ 2 INT in a 23-3 loss vs. Patriots. I'm sure there were people on talk shows then asking for the Bills to cut Kelly an draft Vinny Testaverde, the number 1 overall pick in 1987 from the same school that Kelly attended. Imagine had that happened???? Sunday was Manuel's 9th game. I'm not calling Manuel the next Jim Kelly. However this does put Manuel's start in perspective. I don't feel it's nearly as bad as a majority on this board is making it out to be. Mind you, this was a Jim Kelly that was older than Manuel, and actually had pro experience playing in the USFL prior to joining the Bills. I believe these stats clearly state the obvious, that half way through a players "rookie" season in the NFL is not enough time to make a judgement on how a player's career will end up, or whether they have the skillset or ability to lead the Bills to great things. No matter how horrible you make his performance out to be, it's too early to tell. In the following year 1987, Kelly's completion percentage was STILL below 60%, including the final two games in which his QB rating was in the 40s and the Bills were held to 7 points in both games, which were losses. Those two losses led the Bills to ANOTHER losing record. It's rare that champions are built overnight, especially teams that are starting from scratch as the Bills did this past year. Patience is required in situations such as ours. I said week one that it's going to take atleast a season and a half to get a feel for Manuel's growth, and I still believe that. I want to see him after an off season, where things slow down for him, he gets a full preseason and enters the year with his rookie season in the past. Thats when an honest assessment can be made about his progress. So, for now, history is just about repeating itself. Whether that continues or not, now is not the time to say. I like Manuel's attitude, his competitiveness, his humility, and his maturity. He's done some great things. He just needs to be more consistent. I'm thinking positive on this one, and I have history on my side.
Wayne Cubed Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 Yes, but but but but.... I've seen other teams QB's have amazing playoff type rookie seasons recently. Therefore the Bills have to have a winning/playoff season otherwise Manuel sucks.
maddenboy Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) This is dumb. Comparing stats of qbs is dumb. Stats do not make a franchise qb. Jimbo was the unquestioned leader from day one. EJ is just trying to fit in and get by and improve. Jimbo was trying his heart out to make plays all over the field. EJ is trying not to mess up Jimbo was trying to be the greatest QB in history, from day one. EJ is trying to do his best or something. You can tell when you have a real franchise QB, even in his rookie year. And you can usually tell when you dont. Edited December 10, 2013 by maddenboy
saundena Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 This is dumb. Comparing stats of qbs is dumb. Stats do not make a franchise qb. Jimbo was the unquestioned leader from day one. EJ is just trying to fit in and get by and improve. Jimbo was trying his heart out to make plays all over the field. EJ is trying not to mess up Jimbo was trying to be the greatest QB in history, from day one. EJ is trying to do his best or something. You can tell when you have a real franchise QB, even in his rookie year. And you can usually tell when you dont. Couldn't have said it any better.
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 This is dumb. Comparing stats of qbs is dumb. Stats do not make a franchise qb. Jimbo was the unquestioned leader from day one. EJ is just trying to fit in and get by and improve. Jimbo was trying his heart out to make plays all over the field. EJ is trying not to mess up Jimbo was trying to be the greatest QB in history, from day one. EJ is trying to do his best or something. You can tell when you have a real franchise QB, even in his rookie year. And you can usually tell when you dont. Not only that, but Kelly's numbers in this scenario are significantly better than EJ's. YPA, QB Rating and TD/INT ratio. And that was back when defenders were allowed to touch the QB and WRs too.
nucci Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 If you compare Jim Kelly's rookie season vs. EJ Manuel, here is where it stacks up so far.... Kelly 1986: 16 games Winning Pct: .250 Pass Yds/Gm: 224 Completion %: 59.4 Y/A: 7.49 TD/Int Ratio: 1.29 QB Rating: 83.3 Games in which offense scored 20 pts or more: 5 of 16 % of games with more interceptions than TD's: 31% Manuel 2013 9 games thus far Winning Pct: .333 Pass Yds/Gm: 198 Completion %: 57.8 Y/A: 6.31 TD/Int Ratio: 1.12 QB Rating: 75.4 Games in which offense scored 20 pts or more: 7 of 9 % of games with more interceptions than TD's: 22% In Jim Kelly's 8th game of his rookie campaign he was 13-26 for 166, 0 TD/ 2 INT in a 23-3 loss vs. Patriots. I'm sure there were people on talk shows then asking for the Bills to cut Kelly an draft Vinny Testaverde, the number 1 overall pick in 1987 from the same school that Kelly attended. Imagine had that happened???? Sunday was Manuel's 9th game. I'm not calling Manuel the next Jim Kelly. However this does put Manuel's start in perspective. I don't feel it's nearly as bad as a majority on this board is making it out to be. Mind you, this was a Jim Kelly that was older than Manuel, and actually had pro experience playing in the USFL prior to joining the Bills. I believe these stats clearly state the obvious, that half way through a players "rookie" season in the NFL is not enough time to make a judgement on how a player's career will end up, or whether they have the skillset or ability to lead the Bills to great things. No matter how horrible you make his performance out to be, it's too early to tell. In the following year 1987, Kelly's completion percentage was STILL below 60%, including the final two games in which his QB rating was in the 40s and the Bills were held to 7 points in both games, which were losses. Those two losses led the Bills to ANOTHER losing record. It's rare that champions are built overnight, especially teams that are starting from scratch as the Bills did this past year. Patience is required in situations such as ours. I said week one that it's going to take atleast a season and a half to get a feel for Manuel's growth, and I still believe that. I want to see him after an off season, where things slow down for him, he gets a full preseason and enters the year with his rookie season in the past. Thats when an honest assessment can be made about his progress. So, for now, history is just about repeating itself. Whether that continues or not, now is not the time to say. I like Manuel's attitude, his competitiveness, his humility, and his maturity. He's done some great things. He just needs to be more consistent. I'm thinking positive on this one, and I have history on my side. Technically Kelly wasn't a rookie in '86
Rico Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 This is dumb. Comparing stats of qbs is dumb. Stats do not make a franchise qb. Jimbo was the unquestioned leader from day one. EJ is just trying to fit in and get by and improve. Jimbo was trying his heart out to make plays all over the field. EJ is trying not to mess up Jimbo was trying to be the greatest QB in history, from day one. EJ is trying to do his best or something. You can tell when you have a real franchise QB, even in his rookie year. And you can usually tell when you dont. Absolutely correct. Once again, stats are for losers. Anyone who watched Jimbo's 1st season on the Bills instead of reading about it would know it.
dave mcbride Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 If you compare Jim Kelly's rookie season vs. EJ Manuel, here is where it stacks up so far.... Kelly 1986: 16 games Winning Pct: .250 Pass Yds/Gm: 224 Completion %: 59.4 Y/A: 7.49 TD/Int Ratio: 1.29 QB Rating: 83.3 Games in which offense scored 20 pts or more: 5 of 16 % of games with more interceptions than TD's: 31% Manuel 2013 9 games thus far Winning Pct: .333 Pass Yds/Gm: 198 Completion %: 57.8 Y/A: 6.31 TD/Int Ratio: 1.12 QB Rating: 75.4 Games in which offense scored 20 pts or more: 7 of 9 % of games with more interceptions than TD's: 22% In Jim Kelly's 8th game of his rookie campaign he was 13-26 for 166, 0 TD/ 2 INT in a 23-3 loss vs. Patriots. I'm sure there were people on talk shows then asking for the Bills to cut Kelly an draft Vinny Testaverde, the number 1 overall pick in 1987 from the same school that Kelly attended. Imagine had that happened???? Sunday was Manuel's 9th game. I'm not calling Manuel the next Jim Kelly. However this does put Manuel's start in perspective. I don't feel it's nearly as bad as a majority on this board is making it out to be. Mind you, this was a Jim Kelly that was older than Manuel, and actually had pro experience playing in the USFL prior to joining the Bills. I believe these stats clearly state the obvious, that half way through a players "rookie" season in the NFL is not enough time to make a judgement on how a player's career will end up, or whether they have the skillset or ability to lead the Bills to great things. No matter how horrible you make his performance out to be, it's too early to tell. In the following year 1987, Kelly's completion percentage was STILL below 60%, including the final two games in which his QB rating was in the 40s and the Bills were held to 7 points in both games, which were losses. Those two losses led the Bills to ANOTHER losing record. It's rare that champions are built overnight, especially teams that are starting from scratch as the Bills did this past year. Patience is required in situations such as ours. I said week one that it's going to take atleast a season and a half to get a feel for Manuel's growth, and I still believe that. I want to see him after an off season, where things slow down for him, he gets a full preseason and enters the year with his rookie season in the past. Thats when an honest assessment can be made about his progress. So, for now, history is just about repeating itself. Whether that continues or not, now is not the time to say. I like Manuel's attitude, his competitiveness, his humility, and his maturity. He's done some great things. He just needs to be more consistent. I'm thinking positive on this one, and I have history on my side. 7.49 to 6.31. That's the number I always focus on.
GG Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 Just wondering if you actually watched Kelly in 1986 or decided to pick up the stat book? Earlier in the season I entertained the notion that this team resembles the 86 Bills team. I think I was very wrong, because there's a huge gulf in QB ability.
paupmvp1995 Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 If you compare Jim Kelly's rookie season vs. EJ Manuel, here is where it stacks up so far.... Kelly 1986: 16 games Winning Pct: .250 Pass Yds/Gm: 224 Completion %: 59.4 Y/A: 7.49 TD/Int Ratio: 1.29 QB Rating: 83.3 Games in which offense scored 20 pts or more: 5 of 16 % of games with more interceptions than TD's: 31% Manuel 2013 9 games thus far Winning Pct: .333 Pass Yds/Gm: 198 Completion %: 57.8 Y/A: 6.31 TD/Int Ratio: 1.12 QB Rating: 75.4 Games in which offense scored 20 pts or more: 7 of 9 % of games with more interceptions than TD's: 22% In Jim Kelly's 8th game of his rookie campaign he was 13-26 for 166, 0 TD/ 2 INT in a 23-3 loss vs. Patriots. I'm sure there were people on talk shows then asking for the Bills to cut Kelly an draft Vinny Testaverde, the number 1 overall pick in 1987 from the same school that Kelly attended. Imagine had that happened???? Sunday was Manuel's 9th game. I'm not calling Manuel the next Jim Kelly. However this does put Manuel's start in perspective. I don't feel it's nearly as bad as a majority on this board is making it out to be. Mind you, this was a Jim Kelly that was older than Manuel, and actually had pro experience playing in the USFL prior to joining the Bills. I believe these stats clearly state the obvious, that half way through a players "rookie" season in the NFL is not enough time to make a judgement on how a player's career will end up, or whether they have the skillset or ability to lead the Bills to great things. No matter how horrible you make his performance out to be, it's too early to tell. In the following year 1987, Kelly's completion percentage was STILL below 60%, including the final two games in which his QB rating was in the 40s and the Bills were held to 7 points in both games, which were losses. Those two losses led the Bills to ANOTHER losing record. It's rare that champions are built overnight, especially teams that are starting from scratch as the Bills did this past year. Patience is required in situations such as ours. I said week one that it's going to take atleast a season and a half to get a feel for Manuel's growth, and I still believe that. I want to see him after an off season, where things slow down for him, he gets a full preseason and enters the year with his rookie season in the past. Thats when an honest assessment can be made about his progress. So, for now, history is just about repeating itself. Whether that continues or not, now is not the time to say. I like Manuel's attitude, his competitiveness, his humility, and his maturity. He's done some great things. He just needs to be more consistent. I'm thinking positive on this one, and I have history on my side. What GREAT things r u r talking about that Manuel has done? I haven't seen any greatness... I think he plays the game w absolutely no emotion. And who wants humility from their QB? I want a cockiness that spreads throughout the team.. This is football, not student government. The problem w EJ besides his horrible accuracy and total lack of feel for the position is that he HAS NO ATTITUDE! That the team did not see this when scouting him is absolutely astounding. Bring on Johnny Football!!
Storm Front Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 Even in his first year with the Bills, you could tell that Kelly was a franchise QB. Manuel looks terrible. We haven't even seen a glimpse of anything to get excited. Manziel's attitude sort of reminds me of Kelly's. You can tell a winner when you see it.
H2o Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 This is dumb. Comparing stats of qbs is dumb. Stats do not make a franchise qb. Jimbo was the unquestioned leader from day one. EJ is just trying to fit in and get by and improve. Jimbo was trying his heart out to make plays all over the field. EJ is trying not to mess up Jimbo was trying to be the greatest QB in history, from day one. EJ is trying to do his best or something. You can tell when you have a real franchise QB, even in his rookie year. And you can usually tell when you dont. Aaaaand you user name tells the whole story.
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 EJ in home games: 3-2 record, 91.8 rating, 62.8%, 7 TD, 3 INT, 7.22 ypa, 213 ypg
BigBuff423 Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 I'm not going to jump on the "stats lie" bandwagon, but I will say we're trying to compare apples and really old apples here...I'm not ready to toss Manuel out on the street, but comparing Jim Kelly's "rookie" season to EJ's would be ignoring a whole host of other X-factors that play into, namely the era of the NFL Jimbo played in versus now. As alluded to in an earlier post, the rules were different, the passing game was different, heck - the entire NFL and its culture was different. What I truly blame for the way the season has gone are three things: 1. Hackett's play-calling - at times its been horrendous, others it's been boring, and others it's just been "ok", but it has consistently lacked in imagination and audacity and sometimes, reasonable football intelligence; 2. ST has been abysmal, and you could argue that Marrone shouldn't have hired the ST's coach from Detroit when that ST squad did NOT play well last year, fair point, but rookie NFL coach and with Pettine's hire I'll give him a pass on this one; 3. Injuries...yes, every team has injuries, but this team is thin at depth (thank you Marv Levy and Dick-less Jauron), and the men who were starting are very young in some spots not to mention some turnover and Byrd being out for half the year. These three things in my mind contribute to the woes of the Buffalo BILLS this year. Now, if either Hackett doesn't get fired (which he won't) or Marrone take over for a couple games and show him how it's done so Hackett can improve too, then I put that on Marrone. If the ST's coach isn't fired, I put that on Marrone and injuries, well...we know how that goes. But comparing Jim Kelly in a different era of football is unfair to Kelly, not Manuel...because saying that EJ is having a similar rookie campaign as Kelly, is myopic and over generalized in comparisons.
PaattMaann Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 What GREAT things r u r talking about that Manuel has done? I haven't seen any greatness... I think he plays the game w absolutely no emotion. And who wants humility from their QB? I want a cockiness that spreads throughout the team.. This is football, not student government. The problem w EJ besides his horrible accuracy and total lack of feel for the position is that he HAS NO ATTITUDE! That the team did not see this when scouting him is absolutely astounding. Bring on Johnny Football!! johnny manziel will be a used car salesman in Texas by 2017
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 Technically Kelly wasn't a rookie in '86 He was 26 and already had 2 years of pro football under his belt. I think anyone saying EJ will be the next Kelly is dumb. At the same point, anyone saying EJ is done after 1 year is also dumb.
jester43 Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) I hope i am wrong, and happily for all concerned i am wrong all the #$%%$%@ time...but nonetheless, it is hard to imagine EJ making most of these plays. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvCqe0ulFWw Edited December 10, 2013 by jester43
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 I hope i am wrong, and happily for all concerned i am wrong all the #$%%$%@ time...but nonetheless, it is hard to imagine EJ making most of these plays. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvCqe0ulFWw Comparing any Qb to the best Qb in our franchise history is silly. But do I expect EJ to be a better QB at 26 with a few seasons under his belt (like Jimbo)? Yes, I do. But it's hard to imagine the Bills having another Kelly or even being in the playoffs at this point.
Recommended Posts