EJ Manuel IS our franchise QB

[Rob's House]

What I'm afraid of is these guys will buy into some outdated philosophy where they go all in on "their guy" and sit on their hands while he "develops" for 2-3 years when they should take the approach Seattle did.

 

Seattle didn't luck into a good QB. They played the numbers game and addressed the position aggressively until they got their guy. They took a few swings and misses along the way, but they kept on trying until they got it right. They traded a 4th for Charlie Whitehurst, brought in Tarvaris Jackson, took a shot at signing Peyton Manning, signed Matt Flynn, and drafted Russell Wilson. It didn't just happen by accident.

 

If you pick a guy and decide he gets 2-3 years to develop, you've decided there's a better than average chance your team won't be good for at least 3-4 years.. You got a guy you think can play? Great. Draft another one just in case. Bring in FA competition. If your guy works out then who cares. If he doesn't work out, you've got another guy or 2 that have been practicing with the team and learning the system so you're not starting back at square 1. The point is, you don't sit back and coast until you KNOW you have your guy - and even then it's nice to have a good back up.

[RuntheDamnBall]

What I'm afraid of is these guys will buy into some outdated philosophy where they go all in on "their guy" and sit on their hands while he "develops" for 2-3 years when they should take the approach Seattle did.

 

Seattle didn't luck into a good QB. They played the numbers game and addressed the position aggressively until they got their guy. They took a few swings and misses along the way, but they kept on trying until they got it right. They traded a 4th for Charlie Whitehurst, brought in Tarvaris Jackson, took a shot at signing Peyton Manning, signed Matt Flynn, and drafted Russell Wilson. It didn't just happen by accident.

 

If you pick a guy and decide he gets 2-3 years to develop, you've decided there's a better than average chance your team won't be good for at least 3-4 years.. You got a guy you think can play? Great. Draft another one just in case. Bring in FA competition. If your guy works out then who cares. If he doesn't work out, you've got another guy or 2 that have been practicing with the team and learning the system so you're not starting back at square 1. The point is, you don't sit back and coast until you KNOW you have your guy - and even then it's nice to have a good back up.

I'm a believer in Manuel, but I think you're right on here.

 

I do think it'd be folly to draft a QB round 1 in all but the luckiest scenarios, but otherwise, they shouldn't close the door. Manuel has the skill set and a great attitude, but he still has much to prove.

[C.Biscuit97]

What I'm afraid of is these guys will buy into some outdated philosophy where they go all in on "their guy" and sit on their hands while he "develops" for 2-3 years when they should take the approach Seattle did.

 

Seattle didn't luck into a good QB. They played the numbers game and addressed the position aggressively until they got their guy. They took a few swings and misses along the way, but they kept on trying until they got it right. They traded a 4th for Charlie Whitehurst, brought in Tarvaris Jackson, took a shot at signing Peyton Manning, signed Matt Flynn, and drafted Russell Wilson. It didn't just happen by accident.

 

If you pick a guy and decide he gets 2-3 years to develop, you've decided there's a better than average chance your team won't be good for at least 3-4 years.. You got a guy you think can play? Great. Draft another one just in case. Bring in FA competition. If your guy works out then who cares. If he doesn't work out, you've got another guy or 2 that have been practicing with the team and learning the system so you're not starting back at square 1. The point is, you don't sit back and coast until you KNOW you have your guy - and even then it's nice to have a good back up.

 

Whitehurst was actually traded for a 3rd & swap of 2nds. So in citing Seattle, you do realize they signed a couple of free agents and used a couple of 3rd picks? Hardly a big investment and a far cry from using a 1st & then another high pick the following year.

 

One of the biggest problems with the Bills is they let players walk & then have to use another high pick to replace a productive player. So the idea of using another high pick on a qb next year just blows my mind. 3rd or later, sure why not? But higher than that is flat out crazy and a product of our knee jerk society.

[BuffaloBill]

What I'm afraid of is these guys will buy into some outdated philosophy where they go all in on "their guy" and sit on their hands while he "develops" for 2-3 years when they should take the approach Seattle did.

 

Seattle didn't luck into a good QB. They played the numbers game and addressed the position aggressively until they got their guy. They took a few swings and misses along the way, but they kept on trying until they got it right. They traded a 4th for Charlie Whitehurst, brought in Tarvaris Jackson, took a shot at signing Peyton Manning, signed Matt Flynn, and drafted Russell Wilson. It didn't just happen by accident.

 

If you pick a guy and decide he gets 2-3 years to develop, you've decided there's a better than average chance your team won't be good for at least 3-4 years.. You got a guy you think can play? Great. Draft another one just in case. Bring in FA competition. If your guy works out then who cares. If he doesn't work out, you've got another guy or 2 that have been practicing with the team and learning the system so you're not starting back at square 1. The point is, you don't sit back and coast until you KNOW you have your guy - and even then it's nice to have a good back up.

 

amen...

 

Look at the opposite .. Trade for Rob Johnson nope, get flutie nope, trade for Bledsoe, nope draft Losman nope, draft Trentative, nope, Try a bunch of retreads including Fitzy nope, draft EJ ....

 

How long does this need to go on?

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

amen...

 

Look at the opposite .. Trade for Rob Johnson nope, get flutie nope, trade for Bledsoe, nope draft Losman nope, draft Trentative, nope, Try a bunch of retreads including Fitzy nope, draft EJ ....

 

How long does this need to go on?

 

Losman was the only 1st round qb they drafted. And he was far worse than EJ was & he didn't play until his 2nd year.

 

 

[FireChan]

What I'm afraid of is these guys will buy into some outdated philosophy where they go all in on "their guy" and sit on their hands while he "develops" for 2-3 years when they should take the approach Seattle did.

 

Seattle didn't luck into a good QB. They played the numbers game and addressed the position aggressively until they got their guy. They took a few swings and misses along the way, but they kept on trying until they got it right. They traded a 4th for Charlie Whitehurst, brought in Tarvaris Jackson, took a shot at signing Peyton Manning, signed Matt Flynn, and drafted Russell Wilson. It didn't just happen by accident.

 

If you pick a guy and decide he gets 2-3 years to develop, you've decided there's a better than average chance your team won't be good for at least 3-4 years.. You got a guy you think can play? Great. Draft another one just in case. Bring in FA competition. If your guy works out then who cares. If he doesn't work out, you've got another guy or 2 that have been practicing with the team and learning the system so you're not starting back at square 1. The point is, you don't sit back and coast until you KNOW you have your guy - and even then it's nice to have a good back up.

 

This guy gets it, go send a resume to Ralph ASAP.

[Leelee Phoenix]

What I'm afraid of is these guys will buy into some outdated philosophy where they go all in on "their guy" and sit on their hands while he "develops" for 2-3 years when they should take the approach Seattle did.

 

Seattle didn't luck into a good QB. They played the numbers game and addressed the position aggressively until they got their guy. They took a few swings and misses along the way, but they kept on trying until they got it right. They traded a 4th for Charlie Whitehurst, brought in Tarvaris Jackson, took a shot at signing Peyton Manning, signed Matt Flynn, and drafted Russell Wilson. It didn't just happen by accident.

 

If you pick a guy and decide he gets 2-3 years to develop, you've decided there's a better than average chance your team won't be good for at least 3-4 years.. You got a guy you think can play? Great. Draft another one just in case. Bring in FA competition. If your guy works out then who cares. If he doesn't work out, you've got another guy or 2 that have been practicing with the team and learning the system so you're not starting back at square 1. The point is, you don't sit back and coast until you KNOW you have your guy - and even then it's nice to have a good back up.

Fully agreed, especially when there's not much invested in EJ. I'd like to have 2 capable QBs here even if EJ was great.

 

And I'm afraid that EJ has been "their guy" since Day 1 and that it hasn't changed. Kolb probably was never planned to be serious competition as the starter. They've been very protective of him and that appears to continue with Marrone "simplifying" things for EJ. Along with listening to interviews with Marrone and various players, especially Eric Wood, constant mentions that EJ is "their QB".

[Wesdawg]

I maintain this....I seriously dont think the plan from the jump was to start EJ Manuel.....I think they wanted to start Kolb and ease Manuel in.......

 

but....here we are......so.......

I believe this to be true as well. I think their plan all along was to have Kolb start this season and have EJ sit out until he seemed fully capable of coming in and taking over.

[maddenboy]

What I'm afraid of is these guys will buy into some outdated philosophy where they go all in on "their guy" and sit on their hands while he "develops" for 2-3 years when they should take the approach Seattle did.

 

Seattle didn't luck into a good QB. They played the numbers game and addressed the position aggressively until they got their guy. They took a few swings and misses along the way, but they kept on trying until they got it right. They traded a 4th for Charlie Whitehurst, brought in Tarvaris Jackson, took a shot at signing Peyton Manning, signed Matt Flynn, and drafted Russell Wilson. It didn't just happen by accident.

 

If you pick a guy and decide he gets 2-3 years to develop, you've decided there's a better than average chance your team won't be good for at least 3-4 years.. You got a guy you think can play? Great. Draft another one just in case. Bring in FA competition. If your guy works out then who cares. If he doesn't work out, you've got another guy or 2 that have been practicing with the team and learning the system so you're not starting back at square 1. The point is, you don't sit back and coast until you KNOW you have your guy - and even then it's nice to have a good back up.

 

Not only are you 100% correct, but another thought occurs to me.

 

Since this is clearly a QB league, and since drafted QBs dont cost an arm and a leg anymore, smart teams should draft one in the first round EVERY year. (unless you truly are just a player away from the SB, or a superstar talent is available other than a QB [Jadeveon maybe])

 

Why not? Develop QBs EVERY year and trade them. Develop them and keep them. Develop them and start them. Or wash them out, rinse, repeat. Since QB is the top commodity by far, smart teams should do this.

 

Why not?

Edited December 12, 2013 by maddenboy

[Boludo]

the bill are dumber than dirt do you REALLY think they will use a 3rd round or higher pick on a QB?!

 

PUH-LEEZE

[MDH]

What I'm afraid of is these guys will buy into some outdated philosophy where they go all in on "their guy" and sit on their hands while he "develops" for 2-3 years when they should take the approach Seattle did.

 

Seattle didn't luck into a good QB. They played the numbers game and addressed the position aggressively until they got their guy. They took a few swings and misses along the way, but they kept on trying until they got it right. They traded a 4th for Charlie Whitehurst, brought in Tarvaris Jackson, took a shot at signing Peyton Manning, signed Matt Flynn, and drafted Russell Wilson. It didn't just happen by accident.

 

If you pick a guy and decide he gets 2-3 years to develop, you've decided there's a better than average chance your team won't be good for at least 3-4 years.. You got a guy you think can play? Great. Draft another one just in case. Bring in FA competition. If your guy works out then who cares. If he doesn't work out, you've got another guy or 2 that have been practicing with the team and learning the system so you're not starting back at square 1. The point is, you don't sit back and coast until you KNOW you have your guy - and even then it's nice to have a good back up.

 

You notice in Seattle's scenario they didn't bring in a bunch of rookies who all needed snaps and game time to get to an acceptable level. They brought in a bunch of vets and drafted Wilson. It looks smart in the end because Wilson has turned into a top flight QB while riding a dominant D and running game in his first few seasons.

 

One could look at the Bills and say they did the same thing as Seattle. They brought in Kolb, Leinart, Lewis, drafted EJ, picked up a rookie prospect in Tuel and took a shot at signing Alex Smith. The difference here is that none of them have produced on the field yet. I have no doubt they'll bring in somebody else next year, either a rookie they draft (though not in the first round) or another vet. All the while EJ will be getting live reps.

 

Personally I just don't think brining in another 1st round pick is the answer. Both guys need reps and live action to get to the point where they need and only one of them is going to get it. Along the way that guy is going to make all kinds of mistakes - it's what rookies do. If you have a QB who is looking over his shoulder he's not going to be confident and he's going to be afraid of making mistakes and those mistakes, like it or not, are what enable QBs to get better. In any facet of life it's the mistakes that you learn from. Get two QBs on the roster who aren't getting the reps they need and are afraid of making mistakes when they do get reps and it's a recipe for neither guy developing. And then what do you do, turn around and draft another QB in the 1st because those guys aren't panning out?

 

There's a reason NFL guys do it the way they do and not the way impatient fans on this board are clamoring for.

Edited December 12, 2013 by MDH

[billsfan714]

You notice in Seattle's scenario they didn't bring in a bunch of rookies who all needed snaps and game time to get to an acceptable level. They brought in a bunch of vets and drafted Wilson. It looks smart in the end because Wilson has turned into a top flight QB while riding a dominant D and running game in his first few seasons.

 

One could look at the Bills and say they did the same thing as Seattle. They brought in Kolb, Leinart, Lewis, drafted EJ, picked up a rookie prospect in Tuel and took a shot at signing Alex Smith. The difference here is that none of them have produced on the field yet. I have no doubt they'll bring in somebody else next year, either a rookie they draft (though not in the first round) or another vet. All the while EJ will be getting live reps.

 

Personally I just don't think brining in another 1st round pick is the answer. Both guys need reps and live action to get to the point where they need and only one of them is going to get it. Along the way that guy is going to make all kinds of mistakes - it's what rookies do. If you have a QB who is looking over his shoulder he's not going to be confident and he's going to be afraid of making mistakes and those mistakes, like it or not, are what enable QBs to get better. In any facet of life it's the mistakes that you learn from. Get two QBs on the roster who aren't getting the reps they need and are afraid of making mistakes when they do get reps and it's a recipe for neither guy developing. And then what do you do, turn around and draft another QB in the 1st because those guys aren't panning out?

 

There's a reason NFL guys do it the way they do and not the way impatient fans on this board are clamoring for.

 

I dont think what the Bills did is even close to the same. Leinart and Thad were brougt in after injuries to Kolb and EJ, and Leinart was here less than a week. Seattle signed Flynn for 3 years 26 million, had Jackson as a backup and still used a 3rd rounder on Wilson, A move I dont ever seeing the Bills making.

[Bufcomments]

What I'm afraid of is these guys will buy into some outdated philosophy where they go all in on "their guy" and sit on their hands while he "develops" for 2-3 years when they should take the approach Seattle did.

 

Seattle didn't luck into a good QB. They played the numbers game and addressed the position aggressively until they got their guy. They took a few swings and misses along the way, but they kept on trying until they got it right. They traded a 4th for Charlie Whitehurst, brought in Tarvaris Jackson, took a shot at signing Peyton Manning, signed Matt Flynn, and drafted Russell Wilson. It didn't just happen by accident.

 

If you pick a guy and decide he gets 2-3 years to develop, you've decided there's a better than average chance your team won't be good for at least 3-4 years.. You got a guy you think can play? Great. Draft another one just in case. Bring in FA competition. If your guy works out then who cares. If he doesn't work out, you've got another guy or 2 that have been practicing with the team and learning the system so you're not starting back at square 1. The point is, you don't sit back and coast until you KNOW you have your guy - and even then it's nice to have a good back up.

Good post.

 

Keep on drafting them until you find one. I have no problem with them taking another QB early.

 

But this is the Bills we talking about. They like to put their eggs in one basket and hope it turns out right. You really can't do that with a franchise that has been out the playoffs for so long.

 

Say we get a chance to draft high and a good QB is there. I like EJ and all but its all about upgrading any position you can. If a QB is on the board that is better than E.J. well you be doing yourself a disservice by passing him up.

[C.Biscuit97]

Good post.

 

Keep on drafting them until you find one. I have no problem with them taking another QB early.

 

But this is the Bills we talking about. They like to put their eggs in one basket and hope it turns out right. You really can't do that with a franchise that has been out the playoffs for so long.

 

Say we get a chance to draft high and a good QB is there. I like EJ and all but its all about upgrading any position you can. If a QB is on the board that is better than E.J. well you be doing yourself a disservice by passing him up.

 

How do you know a QB is going to be better at the NFL level than EJ? Because he was good in college??? That's my whole problem with this draft another QB high scenario. If the new guy was a guaranteed Hall of Famer, sure draft him. But what if he struggles like all rookie QBs do? Draft another the following year? When you pick a guy in the 1st, you don't give up on him after one year. It's foolish.

 

Negatives outweigh the positives in life. 2 games ago, EJ had his best game in the NFL. 1 game ago, he led the Bills to 31 points, left the field with a lead, then was potentially leading 2 game winning drives before guys fumbled. Now after a terrible game, he is a bum???

[Bufcomments]

How do you know a QB is going to be better at the NFL level than EJ? Because he was good in college??? That's my whole problem with this draft another QB high scenario. If the new guy was a guaranteed Hall of Famer, sure draft him. But what if he struggles like all rookie QBs do? Draft another the following year? When you pick a guy in the 1st, you don't give up on him after one year. It's foolish.

 

Negatives outweigh the positives in life. 2 games ago, EJ had his best game in the NFL. 1 game ago, he led the Bills to 31 points, left the field with a lead, then was potentially leading 2 game winning drives before guys fumbled. Now after a terrible game, he is a bum???

First I like EJ, he's a good kid. and no I 'm not giving up on him.

 

But last year was a weak QB class, everybody knows this. EJ was part of that class.

 

If this years QB class is stronger, and you have a top 5 draft pick and you see a guy you like and you think he upgrades the position I say I would not have a problem with it.

 

Say if the guy comes in and he is Russell Wilson 2.0. Now you have 2 good QB's which is way better than having 1 you think- hope- maybe able to do it.

 

The Bills at this point have to look at all options is what I'm saying.

[thebandit27]

If you watched both teams play I don't think you can honestly say that. You can enumerate all the points you want, but that team was horrible. Stafford had no protection. Sure, there have been a couple of games this year where the protection broke down for the Bills, but nothing like that Lions team saw week in week out. And touting Roy Williams as a positive on account of his draft status is a stretch.

 

I did watch both teams play, and yes, I can honestly say that. Simply tossing out "You can enumerate all the points you want, but that team was horrible" is basically saying "no matter what the facts are, my opinion supersedes them", which I don't really think is an objective way of looking at it.

 

You say that Stafford had no protection, but in reality, the Detroit offense allowed 95 QB hits that season according to NFL.com

 

http://www.nfl.com/s...qualified=false

 

That's only 6 more QB hits than the Bills have allowed through 13 games

 

http://www.nfl.com/s...qualified=false

 

And as I'm sure you know, often times QB hits allowed are a function of the QB. They're also a function of blitz-heavy defensive schemes that rookies commonly face...let's be honest, the more untested the QB, the more blitzes he'll face; since a defense can always send more pressure than the offense can block, more blitzes will almost always mean more QB hits.

 

Lastly, I wasn't "touting Roy Williams", as he wasn't on the team in 2009 when Stafford was drafted. The team did, however, sign Bryant Johnson in free agency, who was a former 1st round pick. The team's top 3 targets were Calvin, Bryant, and Pettigrew, all 1st round picks. To say Stafford wasn't surrounded with talent would be inaccurate.

 

He was, arguably, surrounded with more offensive talent than EJ from top to bottom.

 

Again though, none of this excuses EJ's level of play last week; we all agree that he needs to show more in the next 3 weeks.

 

I disagree.

Players get hurt. Even if they are taken in round 2, players such as Murray and/or McCarron would almost certainly see playing time, this if they don't win the starting job in camp.

Also, nobody has a higher trade value than a quarterback. It was like this even before the rule changes (Schuab, RJ, etc.). Drafting a good quarterback simply cannot hurt a football team. It's a sound investment. I am guessing that Green Bay wishes they had one on the bench.

 

On a year-to-year basis, I absolutely agree.

 

I'm simply saying that there's a point of diminishing returns in drafting QBs. For example, if the team plans to bring back both Manuel (a definite) and Lewis (a likelihood) in 2014, and they draft another QB in the early rounds, then those 3 guys need to get a lot of snaps in order to assess their ability.

 

If that plan is repeated in 2015, you're now talking about the likelihood of 4 QBs that need snaps.

 

I'm simply saying that repeating the process over-and-over forces decisions to be made perhaps before they should be; that's all.

 

Now, drafting another QB in 2014? Not a bad idea at all.

 

Fully agreed, especially when there's not much invested in EJ. I'd like to have 2 capable QBs here even if EJ was great.

 

And I'm afraid that EJ has been "their guy" since Day 1 and that it hasn't changed. Kolb probably was never planned to be serious competition as the starter. They've been very protective of him and that appears to continue with Marrone "simplifying" things for EJ. Along with listening to interviews with Marrone and various players, especially Eric Wood, constant mentions that EJ is "their QB".

 

Honestly, what do you expect them to say?

 

"EJ's not really our guy yet; we need to see him play better before we get behind the idea that he's our QB"?

 

Not gonna happen.

 

That doesn't mean they won't consider bringing in competition.

Edited December 12, 2013 by thebandit27

[Sisyphean Bills]

I believe this to be true as well. I think their plan all along was to have Kolb start this season and have EJ sit out until he seemed fully capable of coming in and taking over.

 

This may be the case or not. Either way, it is really difficult to support. One could point to Manuel being the starter at the beginning of the pre-season, but then Kolb had slipped and tweaked a knee on a rubber mat. So one could point to that and say Kolb started the next couple of pre-season games. But, Manuel was injured and out for one of those.

 

But, here's the kicker. If you believe there is more or less a dead heat in pre-season between Kevin Kolb, EJ Manuel, and Jeff Tuel at your QB derby, how can anyone think there was adequate competition at the position? (When you take an objective look at how Tuel's career went after he had to take the field when Manuel went down, it's not exactly inspiring.)

 

It seems obvious that the Bills need to elevate that competition. They haven't landed the Brees or Mannings in free agency, so they just may have to go back to the draft to find it. Adding more guys that have at least two previous failures (Flynn, Kolb, Jackson, Leinart, etc.) or UDFAs like Tuel has not been a recipe for creating competition and great QB play for this franchise.

[BarleyNY]

This arguement seems to be devolving into a "You're with us or you're against us!" format. That isn't what I believe. Manuel should get is chance to develop and to try and prove himself - and I think he'll get that opportunity. But it shouldn't be without competition, whether that is from free agency, the draft or even a trade. He may prove himself, but he hasn't yet and putting all of the team's eggs into that one basket looks very unwise at the moment. Besides, a starting NFL QB should be able to handle some competition. If they can't, then that tells you all you need to know about them.

[hondo in seattle]

What I'm afraid of is these guys will buy into some outdated philosophy where they go all in on "their guy" and sit on their hands while he "develops" for 2-3 years when they should take the approach Seattle did.

 

Seattle didn't luck into a good QB. They played the numbers game and addressed the position aggressively until they got their guy. They took a few swings and misses along the way, but they kept on trying until they got it right. They traded a 4th for Charlie Whitehurst, brought in Tarvaris Jackson, took a shot at signing Peyton Manning, signed Matt Flynn, and drafted Russell Wilson. It didn't just happen by accident.

 

If you pick a guy and decide he gets 2-3 years to develop, you've decided there's a better than average chance your team won't be good for at least 3-4 years.. You got a guy you think can play? Great. Draft another one just in case. Bring in FA competition. If your guy works out then who cares. If he doesn't work out, you've got another guy or 2 that have been practicing with the team and learning the system so you're not starting back at square 1. The point is, you don't sit back and coast until you KNOW you have your guy - and even then it's nice to have a good back up.

 

This says it perfectly. This is what the Bills need to do. Keep swinging - and missing - until finally we find the right guy. I really want to draft another QB next year. I'm not saying EJ isn't the future face of the Bills but right now no one can know that.

[Iraq Vet]

Just keep drafting QB.... 7th round or 2nd round. It does not matter. Every year you draft one. If EJ becomes great, you at least have a good back up. Kevin Kolb would have won at least 1 or 2 of those 4 games EJ was out. Just like a stable of running backs... until you find a stud QB. Keep filling up the stable.

 

Jeff Tuel and Lewis are not the answer. a 7th or 5th round QB next year might not be either... but you keep trying.