VanCity Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 As a former Torontonian, I will say unequivocally that Toronto fans, in the large majority, are NFL fans not Bills fans. I grew up as the lone Bills fan amongst my friends, many of whom played high school football and were dedicated NFL fans. As such, kill the series. Who needs a bunch of people at their "home game" cheering for the other team while barely filling a stadium? it is a failed experiment. And, while we are on the topic, never move the Bills to Toronto. If they HAVE (worst case scenario) to move to Southern Ontario, move them to St Catherines or Burlington, an intermediate locale so they can never, ever play in the stupid Rogers Center again. I worked there during the Jays World Series years and it's a giant mausoleum. Cold, spiritless and not aesthetically pleasing in the least.
Campy Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 (edited) Sorry, I don't subscribe to filler media babble. Just because a player is a Bill, it doesn't mean they instantly perform better in colder weather. Which is rarely even below freezing in Buffalo (average high isn't below freezing in Orchard Park until 28 December). That's a fair statement, but I wouldn't call late-season home field advantage "filler media babble" either. Peyton Manning has notoriously spotty performance in cold weather games, but it likely has less to do with his opponents going all diesel in the cold than it does how the cold effects him and his play. It matters. Edited December 4, 2013 by Campy
FireChan Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 That's a fair statement, but I wouldn't call late-season home field advantage "filler media babble" either. Peyton Manning has notoriously spotty performance in cold weather games, but it likely has less to do with his opponents going all diesel in the cold than it does how the cold effects him and his play. It matters. It matters to Peyton. Next time he comes to play us in Toronto, I'll agree the Ralph could help us. Against a battered, injured, and hopeless 2-9 Falcons team, are we so bad that we need more advantages to keep our playoff chances alive?
dezertbill Posted December 4, 2013 Author Posted December 4, 2013 (edited) Playing at home in December is an absolute advantage. Last Sunday we had a 4-7 Buffalo team desperate for a win in order to stay in the playoff hunt playing a home game against a dome team who has been struggling all year...IN A DOME in front of a mixed crowd. I'm not guaranteeing that the Bills would have won this game. However, a 14-0 lead at the Ralph in December amidst the cold and noise against a dome team who has packed it in this year in a game that meant everything to a Bills team trying to break a 13 year playoff drought is a huge deal. The MERE CHANCE that playing at the Ralph could have kept the Bills playoff chances alive this year is enough reason to prove how damaging this series is. What rubs salt in our wound is that every team we needed to lose Sunday did. I think that fires me up as much as the loss. I agree that the answer to this for Russ Brandon is better attendance during the regular season so that Buffalo doesn't get tempted by deals like this. I also believe the flip side for fans is that "play better football and the masses will come", ALA what was done in the 90s. Bottom line, this is a new era for Brandon. He has a new coach, new QB, new coordinators, basically a new GM, and alot of young talent that has made the Bills look promising for the future...and the fans are starting to buy in. Brandon has to have faith that this team, under his direction, will improve. By believing that and putting a better product out on the field, he knows the fans will begin to show up again like they did before. Buffalo is a huge football town, and even when the Bills were struggling in the late 90s and early 2000s, the sellouts kept coming as a residual effect of the Super Bowl years. You play bad football for 13 straight years while making it more costly to attend games, and Brandon can't be confused as to why the attendance is shrinking. He can't punish the fans by moving a game to Toronto. He needs to take acountability as the man in charge and put a better product out on the field and make fans want to come out and watch. Blaming fans for not spending their hard earned dollars for his subpar product is pure arrogance. Show your fans that you aren't putting dollars over wins and cancel this Toronto fiasco. The players and fans will buy in, and as this team grows and improves you'll see an increase in attendance. People will be willing to spend money for the opporunity to experience something great. If they feel there isn't anything great to experience, they won't spend. It's a simple sales equation. If you thumb your nose at fans who no longer are willing to pay for a subpar experience, and feel that playing a game in Toronto will make up for the financial shortcomings your poor product is making revenue wise at the expense of giving your football team every advantage to win, than you are running nothing less than a "dictatorship", and will quickly lose the allegiance of some extremely passionate fans whose allegiance is extremely difficult to lose. At that point, Mr. Wilson's decision to place you in charge will be a regretable one. It's that simple. Edited December 4, 2013 by dezertbill
Utah John Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Brandon is now saying he's reviewing the Toronto plan, implying that it's possible it will be scaled back or terminated. I give Brandon a lot more credit than other posters here. He actually cares about winning, not like the bean counters like Jeff Littman who are after more and more money. I don't think Nix would have come out in public questioning a financial winner for the Bill. I give Brandon credit. Of course this could be mere PR to assuage the anger after the Falcons game. To me, the everlasting villain in the Bills organization is Littman. Bill Polian was forced out by Littman in 1993. Twenty years later the Bills have made money but have become persistent losers. Polian has been a success wherever he's gone.
A Dog Named Kelso Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 (edited) Playing at home in December is an absolute advantage. Last Sunday we had a 4-7 Buffalo team desperate for a win in order to stay in the playoff hunt playing a home game against a dome team who has been struggling all year...IN A DOME in front of a mixed crowd. I'm not guaranteeing that the Bills would have won this game. However, a 14-0 lead at the Ralph in December amidst the cold and noise against a dome team who has packed it in this year in a game that meant everything to a Bills team trying to break a 13 year playoff drought is a huge deal. The MERE CHANCE that playing at the Ralph could have kept the Bills playoff chances alive this year is enough reason to prove how damaging this series is. What rubs salt in our wound is that every team we needed to lose Sunday did. I think that fires me up as much as the loss. You don't know they get a 14 point lead if they played at the Ralph. I am not disagreeing that there in advantage just that the dynamics of the whole game changes. We have no idea how the Bills would play in that weather and if they would score 31 points. Edited December 4, 2013 by cklapka
KollegeStudnet Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Imagine a fan base that for decades has been told that there team is in limbo and might move... From reading Brandon's interview today about how this team is having troubles selling 70,000 seats/sellouts this past year... 14 years of consistent losing and watching a horrendous product over and over again and all we get as fans is "When Ralph Dies" and "Move The Team" BRANDON IT SHOULD BE ALOT WORSE! Put together a Winning Team and stop beating the dead horse that is Toronto! The Bills fans are loyal enough to shell out money hand over fist to see this team crumble every year. Put together a winning season and sellouts will come!
xsoldier54 Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Generalize much? I realize it is a generalization, but in general, from my experience Toronto Maple Leaf Fans hate the Sabres and I believe this sentiment carries over to the Bills games. They root against Buffalo simply because they are Buffalo. I live in Canada and hockey is way more important to these people than football. Hard to explain, but I just get the feeling that the hockey rivalry carries over to the Bills games. Toronto fans can't stand the thought of Buffalo winning at anything.
dezertbill Posted December 4, 2013 Author Posted December 4, 2013 (edited) I realize it is a generalization, but in general, from my experience Toronto Maple Leaf Fans hate the Sabres and I believe this sentiment carries over to the Bills games. They root against Buffalo simply because they are Buffalo. I live in Canada and hockey is way more important to these people than football. Hard to explain, but I just get the feeling that the hockey rivalry carries over to the Bills games. Toronto fans can't stand the thought of Buffalo winning at anything. I've heard this from many Bills fans who live in the Toronto area. Based on the crowd reaction Sunday, I believe it. Edited December 4, 2013 by dezertbill
xsoldier54 Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 It matters to Peyton. Next time he comes to play us in Toronto, I'll agree the Ralph could help us. Against a battered, injured, and hopeless 2-9 Falcons team, are we so bad that we need more advantages to keep our playoff chances alive? It matters to Peyton. Next time he comes to play us in Toronto, I'll agree the Ralph could help us. Against a battered, injured, and hopeless 2-9 Falcons team, are we so bad that we need more advantages to keep our playoff chances alive? Just give it up. You have no argument here. The Rogers Centre definitely contributed to the loss last weekend. If it's played outdoors, there is absolutely no way Atlanta wins this game. The series is a failure for a number of reasons and it needs to go away. The Falcons BTW are a talented team that had a lot of injuries early in the year. They almost beat the Saints the previous week and they are not nearly as hapless as you make them out to be. Just give it up. The series in Toronto needs to go away.
bills_fan_in_raleigh Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 I like that Russ today said everything will be reevaluated. also with scraping Toronto need to move training camp back toe FREDONIA haven't been in playoffs since they left Fredonia!!!
SoulMan Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Stop wining about Toronto and start winning about football.
FireChan Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Just give it up. You have no argument here. The Rogers Centre definitely contributed to the loss last weekend. If it's played outdoors, there is absolutely no way Atlanta wins this game. The series is a failure for a number of reasons and it needs to go away. The Falcons BTW are a talented team that had a lot of injuries early in the year. They almost beat the Saints the previous week and they are not nearly as hapless as you make them out to be. Just give it up. The series in Toronto needs to go away. Jets beat the Saints, Jets beat the Falcons. You obviously haven't looked up the Bills home game record late in the year, have you?
xsoldier54 Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Jets beat the Saints, Jets beat the Falcons. You obviously haven't looked up the Bills home game record late in the year, have you? Again, you have no argument. Have you ever been to the Ralph for a game in December? This is not the past, this is 2013, and this team, this year absolutely wins the game if it's played at the Ralph. You have no argument and the ones you have proposed show no logic. Again, just give it up. The series in Toronto is a dismal failure, the fans there suck and the series needs to go away. You will never convince me otherwise so why do you keep trying. I am not buying what you are selling don't you understand? Are you Canadian or something?
FireChan Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 (edited) Again, you have no argument. Have you ever been to the Ralph for a game in December? This is not the past, this is 2013, and this team, this year absolutely wins the game if it's played at the Ralph. You have no argument and the ones you have proposed show no logic. Again, just give it up. The series in Toronto is a dismal failure, the fans there suck and the series needs to go away. You will never convince me otherwise so why do you keep trying. I am not buying what you are selling don't you understand? Are you Canadian or something? Absolutely wins the game if it's played at the Ralph Prove it. I understand what you're trying to say, you just need to understand it's so unrealistic and sad. Coming off an extra week to prepare after dominating the Jets, with this game being our last hope at the playoffs, and we still lose? How is that not an indictment of the Bills themselves instead of the location? The Toronto series was put in place to increase Bills fandom, as well as put another chip in the pile of worth of the franchise in Buffalo. I'd take the Bills staying here for just about anything. I'm not trying to target you specifically, but this thread is dedicated to people over reacting and projecting the misery of the franchise on one stupid "half away" game. We sold the Ralph out just once this year. Just once. And Toronto is the major concern? How does a Toronto game in December take away ticket sales in September, October and November? Even if we won this game, which is a huge IF, seeing as "must-win" games are historically horrific in the recent history of the franchise, would the Phins game be sold out later this year? I'm betting it wouldn't. I'm more worried about the Bills consistently not being able to stop the run, an offense that hits the skids for about 2 quarters a game, and a special teams unit that can't do anything positive, than this stupid series. Edited December 4, 2013 by FireChan
Garion Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Absolutely agree with the above. If you think Toronto is the problem you are missing way too many issues with this teams performance and the viability of this franchise. I want to keep theBills in Bufflo and the Toronto series helps.
KRT88 Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 (edited) Dear Mr. Brandon: When you took over full control of the franchise earlier this year, one statement you echoed throughout was "doing everything in your power to bring a championship football team to Buffalo." Yet Mr. Brandon, I find this laughable in the midst of the worst decision a Bills executive has ever made for this franchise by giving up 1 home game a year during the regular season to a city that could care less about our proud franchise. Yes Mr. Brandon, you heard me. The City of Toronto could care less. They showed it through their attendance, through their in-game reaction and participation, the condition of the field, and they even showed it through the multiple jerseys the fans were wearing from other teams. The sports writers in Buffalo don't understand it, and can clearly see how losing 1 game a year in the Ralph is a clear disadvantage for a franchise whose each and every home game is critical for a playoff run. The sports writers in Toronto straight up disrespect our proud franchise, making cases through their columns as to why Toronto would even want a "sorry" and “losing” team like the Bills in their city. Yet you could care less who disgraces us. Bills fans hate it, the coaches and players I can tell loathe playing in front of an indifferent crowd “at home”. There are only three people that LOVE this relationship, and that's the people that make money off of it. That's you, Edward Rogers, and MLSE exec Larry Tanenbaum who puts this on in the hopes that one day they steal this proud franchise from the hearts of its fans….with you cheering all along the way. The series is a disgrace, and you should be ashamed of robbing your fans and football team of every advantage possible that makes EVERY GAME so critical every year. Did you even listen to the Falcons post game comments, saying how it felt like a home game, how they could hear the fans cheering for them, all the Atlanta jerseys they saw, and how it helped them feel “more at home in a dome?” Did that make you smile playing such an accommodating host??? You don't care, do you Mr. Brandon? Of course not. You'll give us some corporate bologna about how you want to "bring the game to Canada" and "spread the Bills brand across the border and beyond". That's all crap. The only reason why you do it is for money. Just be up front about it. The crowds are declining, interest is falling, the result is awful…and you don’t care. Let’s extend another 30 years! Let’s decrease our games at the Ralph to 7 home games, 6 home games. Heck, let’s play them all in Toronto! Perhaps you should promote a Peyton Manning Jersey give away at the gate. That should increase attendance!!! So the next time you pull up in front of a microphone Mr. Brandon and talk about how “it’s all about bringing a championship football team to Buffalo” be sure to place your hand behind your back and cross your fingers to form a dollar sign. Remember that you are robbing your football team of a competitive advantage that 95% of all NFL teams have (minus those that have to play a “home” game in London once every 10-15 years....not EVERY YEAR!). If you care about the Bills and its fans, stop this Toronto series immediately. It's deplorable. The players, writers, and fans in both cities know it. And you know it too. Give the Bills every advantage they can have to be successful. Give us 8 high energy home games. Anything else is a clear indication that winning isn't important to you, and will lend zero credibility to any comments you say to the contrary. Thank you for your time. Post this on social media and every where you can think of. This was well written and very accurate. Edited December 4, 2013 by KRT88
xsoldier54 Posted December 5, 2013 Posted December 5, 2013 Absolutely wins the game if it's played at the Ralph Prove it. I understand what you're trying to say, you just need to understand it's so unrealistic and sad. Coming off an extra week to prepare after dominating the Jets, with this game being our last hope at the playoffs, and we still lose? How is that not an indictment of the Bills themselves instead of the location? The Toronto series was put in place to increase Bills fandom, as well as put another chip in the pile of worth of the franchise in Buffalo. I'd take the Bills staying here for just about anything. I'm not trying to target you specifically, but this thread is dedicated to people over reacting and projecting the misery of the franchise on one stupid "half away" game. We sold the Ralph out just once this year. Just once. And Toronto is the major concern? How does a Toronto game in December take away ticket sales in September, October and November? Even if we won this game, which is a huge IF, seeing as "must-win" games are historically horrific in the recent history of the franchise, would the Phins game be sold out later this year? I'm betting it wouldn't. I'm more worried about the Bills consistently not being able to stop the run, an offense that hits the skids for about 2 quarters a game, and a special teams unit that can't do anything positive, than this stupid series. Okay, I have tried my best to be polite. You are showing your ignorance about the Toronto series. I am not talking about any other games. I am not talking about anything else that may or may not be wrong with the team. I am talking specifically about the games in Toronto. They suck and the fans suck. Is that clear enough for you? There are other issues with the team, but that is not what I was talking about in any of my posts. I am talking only about the games in Toronto. Anyone who cannot see that they are a colossal failure is either a fool or an idiot. Not sure which category you may fall into, but it's obviously one or the other.
Garion Posted December 5, 2013 Posted December 5, 2013 "Southern Ontario fans account for nearly 20 percent of the Bills ticket base." Seriously you think the Toronto series has been a failure. . .how many black outs would this team have had over the last few years without the growth of the Canadian fan base. What would the Raplh's home field advantage be like with twenty percent less fans . . . We get it the home field advantage disapears in Toronto, and it makes a game somewhat less likely to be won no one disagrees with that. But the Toronto series is about maintaining a viable fan/sponsor base as Buffalos population and sponsor base declines.
uncle flap Posted December 5, 2013 Posted December 5, 2013 So if the Bills had won does Russ even bring this up? Because despite all the things we are (rightfully) complaining about, they almost did. And FWIW, Toronto doesn't want the series either: http://www.torontosun.com/2013/12/04/buffalo-bills-toronto-series-simply-a-bad-idea http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/2013/12/04/nfl_picks_buffalo_bills_need_a_new_dance_partner_kelly.html Also, I mentioned this in another thread, but I find it hilarious that one of the writers is knocking the Bills for having 20k unsold for the phins game while completely ignoring that means that 50k have been sold. Which is 10k more than their pathetic turnout. If you picked the 6 lowest attended games at the Ralph over the past 6 years, you'd still put the Toronto series attendance to shame.
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