Call Ralph's Bluff

[Meatloaf Sandwich]

OP welcome to the PRIVILEGE of being a city with a team. Just like your license is a privilege and can be taken away so can the team. Be happy you have a team b.c maybe one day you won't and then you can't make a thread like this.

[8-8 Forever?]

I certainly hope it is.

Not a chance. NYS , and especially WNY has no ability to bankroll a $1B facility used a maybe 20 times per year. Not a chance. NYS is a dead state financially. Can you say "peace bridge"? So unless the next owner of the Bills is willing to build a stadium a la Jerry Jones, it is not happening.

 

Fewer than half of the teams sell PSLs and most of them contributed to their stadium construction and commit that money to debt repayment.

 

 

 

Were the late 90's that long ago?

 

No chance of selling PSLs in WNY. So that source of financing for a stadium is gone.

[OldTimer1960]

 

So tell me then why is the status quo OK with everyone. I'd like to hear your take.

 

Nobody is happy that the team has been bad for a long time. But I don't see their failings as a lack of effort or a secret plan to suck in order to torture and rip off the fan base. The organization has tried to get credible football people to run the front office. I remember thinking that the hiring of Tom Donahoe was going to work very well. I still think that Buddy Nix significantly upgraded the talent level on the team over the past 3 years.

 

Basically, the team went through an awful period prior to Nix' arrival and the cupboard was completely bare. Importantly, they have been unable to find a good QB since Jim Kelly left - that by itself was the single biggest problem.

 

I hope that they have finally found a good long term answer at QB and I think that there is young talent to develop. I believe that they are finally headed in the right direction.

 

My main point through all of this rambling is that placing all blame on Mr Wilson is way off base (IMHO).

[Kirby Jackson]

 

So tell me then why is the status quo OK with everyone. I'd like to hear your take.

 

I don't think that status quo is okay with anyone; I just don't think a boycott will serve any purpose.

 

I do feel fortunate to have been raised in one of the 32 cities to have an NFL franchise. I have many great memories as a child in that stadium and from that team. I take losses as bad (or worse) than anyone but by no means am I going to stop caring.

 

As someone said earlier the Bills do not have some scheme to lose and suck money out of you. They have spent in free agency and drafted well last year. They are trying to turn the corner and have lots of young talent. They just need to learn how to win. That is a mentality.

[Mr. WEO]

.

This link really does not discuss or refer to any threat that Ralph made to leave town.

 

Wow, you would think an article entitled "Bills to Remain in Buffalo" would have led you to that conclusion even if you were completely unaware of the backstory.

 

"With a flurry of faxes and phone calls in the final hours, the Bills narrowly beat Tuesday's noon deadline for selling $11 million in premium seats. That ensures the team will stay in Buffalo for at least another five years. -- the Bills beat the clock to win perhaps the greatest off-field struggle in their history."

 

"When Houston lost their franchise, when Los Angeles lost their franchise, and now Boston loses its franchise, the Buffalo Bills are staying in Buffalo and western New York," said Erie County Executive Dennis Gorski."

 

 

"We were down to fourth-and-inches ... given the time of day," said Erkie Kailbourne, chairman of Business Backs the Bills. "But this is a great day for western New York."

Sales of outdoor club seats, which cost $4,300 to $6,300 on a five-year lease, took off after the Bills started winning under quarterback Doug Flutie."

 

Perhaps not in Houston, but this was a huge story up in these parts at that time. If the deadline for luxury seat sales was not met, state funds would not be released for the renovatiosn Ralph demanded and he made it clear he was not going to renew the stadium lease.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Mr. WEO

[CodeMonkey]

They just need to learn how to win. That is a mentality.

Ugggggg. That statement makes me crazy. Everyone on this team, and every NFL main team, knows how to win. Their entire lives they have been winning at football. From pee-wee through college. They clearly already KNOW how to win. What they need is enough talent on the field and on the sidelines (coaching) to win, period. Nothing personal, but the headshrinker horse#$@! drives me a little crazy (a short drive admittedly ).

Edited December 4, 2013 by CodeMonkey

[Kirby Jackson]

 

Ugggggg. That statement makes me crazy. Everyone on this team, and every NFL main team, knows how to win. Their entire lives they have been winning at football. From pee-wee through college. They clearly already KNOW how to win. What they need is enough talent on the field and on the sidelines (coaching) to win, period. Nothing personal, but the headshrinker horse#$@! drives me a little crazy (a short drive admittedly ).

 

It is reality though. Look at that Baltimore team. They took their share of playoff lumps (see Lee Evans) before getting per the top.

 

Also, you need players that are winners. No offense to Stevie and Chandler but the mistakes they make are at the worst time. Certain guys deliver in the clutch and others don't. With the game on the line the other day Fitz threw a pick for the Titans; have you very seen that before?

[Coach Tuesday]

I don't think that status quo is okay with anyone; I just don't think a boycott will serve any purpose.

 

I do feel fortunate to have been raised in one of the 32 cities to have an NFL franchise. I have many great memories as a child in that stadium and from that team. I take losses as bad (or worse) than anyone but by no means am I going to stop caring.

 

As someone said earlier the Bills do not have some scheme to lose and suck money out of you. They have spent in free agency and drafted well last year. They are trying to turn the corner and have lots of young talent. They just need to learn how to win. That is a mentality.

 

I'm sorry but that's garbage. They don't fully invest in their roster. They still don't pay for veteran depth, especially after mid-August. They don't make investments in trainining and conditioning that could help level the playing field for their relatively weak and underpaid roster. They talk about retaining their young talent and then they don't do it. They greedily pocket Toronto cash and then do nothing to help ensure that the environment is conducive to winning games. They replaced Chan freakin' Gailey with a guy who was coaching at Syracuse last year, and allow him to roll with a rookie OC/QB coach and crony special teams coach, both of whom have seriously underperformed as many predicted. There are many, many other examples of what I'm getting at - I can't and won't list them all now.

 

This team doesn't just need to "learn to win" - the organization as a whole needs to "want to win" and commit to making the investments necessary to make that happen. It's not going to happen during Ralph Wilson's lifetime.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

I'm sorry but that's garbage. They don't fully invest in their roster. They still don't pay for veteran depth, especially after mid-August. They don't make investments in trainining and conditioning that could help level the playing field for their relatively weak and underpaid roster. They talk about retaining their young talent and then they don't do it. They greedily pocket Toronto cash and then do nothing to help ensure that the environment is conducive to winning games. They replaced Chan freakin' Gailey with a guy who was coaching at Syracuse last year, and allow him to roll with a rookie OC/QB coach and crony special teams coach, both of whom have seriously underperformed as many predicted. There are many, many other examples of what I'm getting at - I can't and won't list them all now.

 

This team doesn't just need to "learn to win" - the organization as a whole needs to "want to win" and commit to making the investments necessary to make that happen. It's not going to happen during Ralph Wilson's lifetime.

 

They have arguably the best training facility in the NFL so they certainly invested there. I am not sure what investments you want in training and conditioning. They have had issues staying healthy but I don't know where you want them to throw money. New training staff or strength and conditioning staff I guess?

 

They have changed their philosophy from plugging holes with the Nick Barnett's and Drayton Florence's of the world to using young players as your depth. I see no issue with that. For years they plugged holes with mediocre veterans and how did that work out?

 

What young talent did they let walk? They got a 1st for Peters, everyone ran lynch out of town. Evans was done when the rightfully let him walk. The last young player toward away that they should have kept was Winfield and that was a long time ago.

 

The whole "they don't want to win" argument is dumber than the "trade Mario for Skelton" argument. Of course they want to win. Their jobs depend on it. They have spent on scouting which is one area that "cheap teams" haven't (see Bengals).

 

I am as frustrated as anyone but let's point to the real issues. They have lacked talent for years. It appears to be better now than they have had in years past. They swung and missed on draft picks, it was not from being cheap. They made bad football decisions. Do they have a QB? Who knows but they certainly took their shot.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Kirby Jackson

[thebandit27]

I'm sorry but that's garbage. They don't fully invest in their roster. They still don't pay for veteran depth, especially after mid-August. They don't make investments in trainining and conditioning that could help level the playing field for their relatively weak and underpaid roster. They talk about retaining their young talent and then they don't do it. They greedily pocket Toronto cash and then do nothing to help ensure that the environment is conducive to winning games. They replaced Chan freakin' Gailey with a guy who was coaching at Syracuse last year, and allow him to roll with a rookie OC/QB coach and crony special teams coach, both of whom have seriously underperformed as many predicted. There are many, many other examples of what I'm getting at - I can't and won't list them all now.

 

This team doesn't just need to "learn to win" - the organization as a whole needs to "want to win" and commit to making the investments necessary to make that happen. It's not going to happen during Ralph Wilson's lifetime.

 

You're a bit off here Coach. For the last 10 years, the team has ranged from top 5 in cap space used to bottom 5 and everywhere in between; they do invest in their roster.

 

They also retain young talent routinely...since Nix/Whaley took over, they've re-signed far, far more young players than they've failed to. Just look at guys like Kyle Williams, Stevie, Freddie, Chandler, Urbik, Pears, Wood, McKelvin (not to mention guys like Florence, Wilson, and Fitz who probably shouldn't have gotten the money). You can argue they've spent poorly, but they've kept way more than they've lost.

 

As for Marrone, he was interviewed by a number of teams this off-season; you can hardly blame Brandon for going with a guy he knows that is on the coaching radar across the NFL.

[stony]

I'm sorry but that's garbage. They don't fully invest in their roster. They still don't pay for veteran depth, especially after mid-August. They don't make investments in trainining and conditioning that could help level the playing field for their relatively weak and underpaid roster. They talk about retaining their young talent and then they don't do it. They greedily pocket Toronto cash and then do nothing to help ensure that the environment is conducive to winning games. They replaced Chan freakin' Gailey with a guy who was coaching at Syracuse last year, and allow him to roll with a rookie OC/QB coach and crony special teams coach, both of whom have seriously underperformed as many predicted. There are many, many other examples of what I'm getting at - I can't and won't list them all now.

 

This team doesn't just need to "learn to win" - the organization as a whole needs to "want to win" and commit to making the investments necessary to make that happen. It's not going to happen during Ralph Wilson's lifetime.

 

What is so bad about their training and conditioning? That's a broad statement, I'm sure you have many examples of what's so piss-poor about it.

 

Rookie OC: He'll take his lumps, I can deal with it. Special Teams: ehhh, they've been average. They certainly haven't lost us numerous games as you seem to be implying.

 

I'm sure you'll quote the "ridiculous" amount of injuries we've sustained over the years, but contrary to Bills fan's memories, other teams (every team) suffers tons of injuries too. It's so natural for Bills fans to play the injury card, it's become this generation's "fisherman's story." Every year, the injury list just gets larger...

 

Other widely held beliefs by Bills fans...1) Bruce Smith dominated on every single play (that's why Mario is a bust), 2) It was -10 degrees at every Bill's home game in Dec from 1990-1993 (naw) 3) The Bill's used to sell out every -10 degree home game (couldn't even sell out a Bill's playoff game) 4) Jim Kelly used to drink a fifth of Jack on the way to the stadium (well...)

Edited December 4, 2013 by stony

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

I am not so sure TO is such a foregone conclusion.

(1) You have a solid base of fans that buy tickets and watch games no how bad the team is. Why mess with that?

 

(2) Toronto has it's own team, Canada has it's own league and there will be resistance to any perceived "take over" of thier own cultural identity

 

(3) so if you take western New York as a fan base with like 2 million people and say 30% are bills fans vs TO with 6 million you'd need to convert at least 10% (in a vacuum) to get the same fan base which is a calulated risk that might not pan out. In aggregate you have a market of 8-10 million people which seems about average for the league. Hence regionalization

 

(4) land in Niagara Falls or elsewhere for a new stadium on the us side is likely much cheaper than anywhere in Canada.

 

 

[stony]

Ugggggg. That statement makes me crazy. Everyone on this team, and every NFL main team, knows how to win. Their entire lives they have been winning at football. From pee-wee through college. They clearly already KNOW how to win. What they need is enough talent on the field and on the sidelines (coaching) to win, period. Nothing personal, but the headshrinker horse#$@! drives me a little crazy (a short drive admittedly ).

 

Totally agree. The winning mentality cliche is one of the most-overused in sports.

 

Great organizations we associate with winning take their lumps just like the crappy ones do when they don't have good players.

 

If anything, I'd argue the phrase could best be applied to the front office/owner more than the players.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

Totally agree. The winning mentality cliche is one of the most-overused in sports.

 

Great organizations we associate with winning take their lumps just like the crappy ones do when they don't have good players.

 

If anything, I'd argue the phrase could best be applied to the front office/owner more than the players.

 

There is a reason that the Patriots and their mediocre talent win close games. There is also a reason that the Bills lose close games (New England, Atlanta, Cincy, KC). Obviously talent and coaching are needed but teams that have succeeded in high pressure situations are less likely to make mistakes in those same high pressure situations. Teams that have a history of losing continually make crucial mistakes in clutch situations. They press and it usually doesn't work out. I do not think that it is a coincidence.

[CodeMonkey]

There is a reason that the Patriots and their mediocre talent win close games. There is also a reason that the Bills lose close games (New England, Atlanta, Cincy, KC). Obviously talent and coaching are needed but teams that have succeeded in high pressure situations are less likely to make mistakes in those same high pressure situations. Teams that have a history of losing continually make crucial mistakes in clutch situations. They press and it usually doesn't work out. I do not think that it is a coincidence.

If that is what you are calling learning to win, then we are just arguing semantics. I call this learning to be a better player. I haven't seen all the the NE comebacks this season (thank god), but they seem to be in large part due to Brady .... not only a great player but one of the best of all time. Now please pardon me while I go wash my mouth out with soap.

Edited December 4, 2013 by CodeMonkey

[Kirby Jackson]

 

If that is what you are calling learning to win, then we are just arguing semantics. I call this learning to be a better player. I haven't seen all the the NE comebacks this season (thank god), but they seem to be in large part due to Brady .... not only a great player but one of the best of all time. Now please pardon me while I go wash my mouth out with soap.

 

Yeah, the one against New Orleans was particularly painful (as was Denver).

 

We are pretty much saying the same thing. I am a Yankee fan and there is a reason that I want Derek Jeter batting with the game on the line and not A Rod. One has proven that they can produce with the game on the line in many situations and one has done the opposite. Unfortunately the Bills are ARod.

[BillnutinHouston]

.

 

 

Wow, you would think an article entitled "Bills to Remain in Buffalo" would have led you to that conclusion even if you were completely unaware of the backstory.

 

"With a flurry of faxes and phone calls in the final hours, the Bills narrowly beat Tuesday's noon deadline for selling $11 million in premium seats. That ensures the team will stay in Buffalo for at least another five years. -- the Bills beat the clock to win perhaps the greatest off-field struggle in their history."

 

"When Houston lost their franchise, when Los Angeles lost their franchise, and now Boston loses its franchise, the Buffalo Bills are staying in Buffalo and western New York," said Erie County Executive Dennis Gorski."

 

 

"We were down to fourth-and-inches ... given the time of day," said Erkie Kailbourne, chairman of Business Backs the Bills. "But this is a great day for western New York."

Sales of outdoor club seats, which cost $4,300 to $6,300 on a five-year lease, took off after the Bills started winning under quarterback Doug Flutie."

 

Perhaps not in Houston, but this was a huge story up in these parts at that time. If the deadline for luxury seat sales was not met, state funds would not be released for the renovatiosn Ralph demanded and he made it clear he was not going to renew the stadium lease.

 

I was a WNY resident and season ticket holder (and still am) at the time of that "dance", and while I recall the situation to be dicey with respect to the lease, I do not ever recall any public statement made by Wilson or the Bills about specific places they would relocate to. I'd still like to see a link with quotes from Mr. Wilson or a team spokesman stating a threat to relocate.

 

But giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you are correct that Mr. Wilson was vocal with threats to leave...did the stadium NOT need renovations to (among other things) increase the number of boxes? If you were the Bills owner at the time, how would you have persuaded NYS to get off the dime and put a miniscule $60 million into the stadium when your counterparts are getting $500 million - $1 billion dollar palaces left and right? Wilson was playing relative softball compared to what he could have done. Again I say, if he really was going to "bluff" WNY, he would have simply asked for a new stadium, then watched the mayhem as he easily built his case for relocating. We all know he did no such thing.

[stony]

There is a reason that the Patriots and their mediocre talent win close games. There is also a reason that the Bills lose close games (New England, Atlanta, Cincy, KC). Obviously talent and coaching are needed but teams that have succeeded in high pressure situations are less likely to make mistakes in those same high pressure situations. Teams that have a history of losing continually make crucial mistakes in clutch situations. They press and it usually doesn't work out. I do not think that it is a coincidence.

 

I didn't mean to dismiss your entire point regarding a winning culture. I think a winning mindset can be ingrained on a team's collective identity, but sometimes the talking heads overuse the cliche in describing why a team stinks. But I do think the ownership and front office are responsible for creating this identity more so than the players themselves.

 

I think the 49s are a great example of this. Look at their record from 2003 to 2010. What changed in 2010? Aggressive new (kind of new, at least younger) ownership, new coach with winning pedigree, comes into a team that stunk. Alex Smith was a has been but begins playing well, all of a sudden our favorite whipping boy Donte Whitner is a Pro Bowler (BS by the way) and the team returns to prominence in a very short period of time. I can't say for sure what or who was responsible for the rapid transformation, but it's an interesting topic to ponder.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

I didn't mean to dismiss your entire point regarding a winning culture. I think a winning mindset can be ingrained on a team's collective identity, but sometimes the talking heads overuse the cliche in describing why a team stinks. But I do think the ownership and front office are responsible for creating this identity more so than the players themselves.

 

I think the 49s are a great example of this. Look at their record from 2003 to 2010. What changed in 2010? Aggressive new (kind of new, at least younger) ownership, new coach with winning pedigree, comes into a team that stunk. Alex Smith was a has been but begins playing well, all of a sudden our favorite whipping boy Donte Whitner is a Pro Bowler (BS by the way) and the team returns to prominence in a very short period of time. I can't say for sure what or who was responsible for the rapid transformation, but it's an interesting topic to ponder.

 

Winning culture is probably a better way to put it. I am with you that a winning culture is inclusive from the top down. I am just of the mindset that it starts from the bottom up. I think that it starts with some hard fought wins. In order to do that they need to rise to the occasion in big moments instead of fumbling those moments away (literally).

Edited December 4, 2013 by Kirby Jackson

[stony]

Winning culture is

 

Care to expand? What is this winning culture you speak of? Is it talented players? Fancy locker room signs that get you pumped up before a game? Good coaching? An owner who makes your locker room the nicest in the league?

 

"Winning culture" is a broad term.