A Few Thoughts About The Game, in no particular order.....

[Coach Tuesday]

Who put the player on the field in the first place?

 

The do have tiers of ability, and its up to the coaches to evaluate the talent, and put the best players on the field.

 

Some players like LG Colin Brown or CB Justin Rodgers should have never been starters or even seen the field during a regular season game. Jeff Tuel should have never seen the field this year as the starting QB. Backup guard Sam young should have never seen the field. All but Tuel have been outright cut from the team, and Tuel is now 3rd string.

 

I get it that Marrone, Hackett are rookie NFL coaches at their jobs, and so is new GM Doug Whaley. So in my view they get more of a pass in their first year then both very NFL experienced Buddy Nix / Chan Gailey should have gotten. To their credit they have already equaled Nix / Gailey in their first 2010 season. Plus, this years Bills still have a chance to finish with a winning record, and they managed this with 3 very raw rookies at QB too.

 

Explain to me how the Bills can finish with a winning record?

[dave mcbride]

I've already read Adam Tooze's Wages of Destruction. One of the best history books I've ever encountered, on any subject. If the other two books you mentioned are anywhere near that category, I'll have to read them as well.

 

I've also read the book another poster recommended: William Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. That book had made a very favorable impression on me at the time. But the more I learned from other sources, the lower my opinion of it became. Ironically enough, one of those other sources was the aforementioned Wages of Destruction.

 

Hitler's Empire is just as good as Wages of Destruction. Strange Victory is excellent also, but not as highly recommended because it's not as expansive.

[Kemp]

Who put the player on the field in the first place?

 

The do have tiers of ability, and its up to the coaches to evaluate the talent, and put the best players on the field.

 

Some players like LG Colin Brown or CB Justin Rodgers should have never been starters or even seen the field during a regular season game. Jeff Tuel should have never seen the field this year as the starting QB. Backup guard Sam young should have never seen the field. All but Tuel have been outright cut from the team, and Tuel is now 3rd string.

 

I get it that Marrone, Hackett are rookie NFL coaches at their jobs, and so is new GM Doug Whaley. So in my view they get more of a pass in their first year then both very NFL experienced Buddy Nix / Chan Gailey should have gotten. To their credit they have already equaled Nix / Gailey in their first 2010 season. Plus, this years Bills still have a chance to finish with a winning record, and they managed this with 3 very raw rookies at QB too.

 

I would have thought that everyone here understood that coaches play the best players they have. A coach can make a mistake but good players will always get their deserved playing time.

 

The argument that coaches retard a player's growth and abilities is nonsensical to me. Saying that Tuel was a mistake or some of the others you mentioned does not address the central point that a coach can only play players on their roster.

 

If you are a coach and you are unhappy with a player, other than sitting him for another player, what other choice is there?

 

To answer your first question, the GM picks the players. A coach might have influence, but ultimately it is not his call. An exception exists somewhat in Dallas, but that is from the top, not to the top.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Kemp

[K-9]

I would have thought that everyone here understood that coaches play the best players they have. A coach can make a mistake but good players will always get their deserved playing time.

 

The argument that coaches retard a player's growth and abilities is nonsensical to me. Saying that Tuel was a mistake or some of the others you mentioned does not address the central point that a coach can only play players on their roster.

 

If you are a coach and you are unhappy with a player, other than sitting him for another player, what other choice is there?

 

There's always the woulda-coulda-shoulda choice. But you have to go into the future and come back before you can use it.

 

Bottom line is that the coaches rectified their mistakes after seeing what they had.

 

And they are far from finished.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[thebandit27]

There's always the woulda-coulda-shoulda choice. But you have to go into the future and come back before you can use it.

 

Bottom line is that the coaches rectified their mistakes after seeing what they had.

 

And they are far from finished.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

This is the point that seems to get horribly lost on some folks...guys can look really good in practice, TC, pre-season, and even in spot duty (i.e. Colin Brown's play at center in 2011). Until they play under live fire for at least a few games, there's no telling if they measure up.

 

Certain guys didn't (i.e. Brown, Young, Rodgers, etc.) and they've been released.

[chris heff]

 

 

Hitler's Empire is just as good as Wages of Destruction. Strange Victory is excellent also, but not as highly recommended because it's not as expansive.

For some controversy throw in Origins of the Second World War by A.J.P. Taylor.

[BADOLBILZ]

I get it that Marrone, Hackett are rookie NFL coaches at their jobs, and so is new GM Doug Whaley. So in my view they get more of a pass in their first year then both very NFL experienced Buddy Nix / Chan Gailey should have gotten. To their credit they have already equaled Nix / Gailey in their first 2010 season. Plus, this years Bills still have a chance to finish with a winning record, and they managed this with 3 very raw rookies at QB too.

 

To their credit they are 4-8? Of all the new coaching staffs only Jacksonville has fared worse. I think the personnel department was responsible for the slow start but the losses in Pittsburgh and Toronto were about coaching. Poor preparation, bad coaching decisions and in the case of Pittsburgh a poor effort. What is especially damning is that 7 of their first 12 games were played in non-hostile environments. And how often to you get to December and have 3 consecutive games against teams that had only 2-3 wins coming into that month? Their schedule was not an obstacle this year, to say the least.

[ganesh]

To their credit they are 4-8? Of all the new coaching staffs only Jacksonville has fared worse. I think the personnel department was responsible for the slow start but the losses in Pittsburgh and Toronto were about coaching. Poor preparation, bad coaching decisions and in the case of Pittsburgh a poor effort. What is especially damning is that 7 of their first 12 games were played in non-hostile environments. And how often to you get to December and have 3 consecutive games against teams that had only 2-3 wins coming into that month? Their schedule was not an obstacle this year, to say the least.

On the flip side, the same schedule did cause hurdles. How often do you play teams coming of their bye weeks on a week by week and then when you get your bye your opponent also gets 10 days to prepare for the game. The schedule did no favors by making it a tough schedule in the first 10 games.

[Fan in Chicago]

On the flip side, the same schedule did cause hurdles. How often do you play teams coming of their bye weeks on a week by week and then when you get your bye your opponent also gets 10 days to prepare for the game. The schedule did no favors by making it a tough schedule in the first 10 games.

 

We came out of a bye week against a 2-9 team and still lost

[BADOLBILZ]

On the flip side, the same schedule did cause hurdles. How often do you play teams coming of their bye weeks on a week by week and then when you get your bye your opponent also gets 10 days to prepare for the game. The schedule did no favors by making it a tough schedule in the first 10 games.

 

I don't think it caused the hurdles some were expecting it to. That would be like saying it was unfair to other teams that the Bills had all new coaches and schemes and that other teams had previous seasons of game film and stats for the Bills to prepare with all offseason. Or that having different QB's made it hard for teams to prepare. If it is a heavyweight matchup where one team gets a bye I can see an advantage but I don't think the byes set up teams to beat the Bills. I agree that the schedule shouldn't be that way but I don't think we saw refreshed teams playing against the Bills while the Bills were struggling or unprepared. The Bills themselves played worse after their bye. The Bills had some injuries very early, before the byes were involved but on the whole they may be the healthiest team in the NFL this season.

[1billsfan]

+1

 

I don't understand why many are so harsh on Manuel. If that was "awful" then there are no words for some QB performances. Again, I don't know if Manuel will be the long- term answer, but I've been generally pleased with his play so far (Pittsburgh game was tough to watch, though)

 

I think that Bill in NYC needs to seriously contemplate retiring his "A Few Thoughts" weekly thread. Calling EJ Manuel's performance against Atlanta "awful" is practically announcing you no longer have credibility to this Bills fan. In the Atlanta game, Manuel twice made huge plays to put the Bills in position to win the game. Many times during the game the defense failed to show up, yet Manuel was up to the task of bailing everyone out including Stevie. That's awful? Completion percentages?

 

In his seven starts to date, rookie QB EJ Manuel has only put up two "awful" performances. They are the Jets first game and the Steelers game. The other five games he's played well in, and in those games the Bills either won, were very close to winning or he left the game with an injury after putting his team in position for a go ahead score. What I see in EJ Manuel is a more athletic Ben Rothlesberger. He will put in the work to improve his mechanics and accuracy and a few years down the road I think he'll be one of the top five QBs in the NFL. He's got a ways to go, but calling his performance against Atlanta "awful" is ridiculous. With the game on the line, he twice put the Bills in position to win.

 

When I say he's played well, that's not judging him on the Brees, Manning, Brady HOF scale. He's a rookie QB. He's playing well for a first round "future franchise QB" pick. Can we give him a little time to iron out the wrinkles in his game so he can look pretty doing it a few years from now?

[K-9]

This is the point that seems to get horribly lost on some folks...guys can look really good in practice, TC, pre-season, and even in spot duty (i.e. Colin Brown's play at center in 2011). Until they play under live fire for at least a few games, there's no telling if they measure up.

 

Certain guys didn't (i.e. Brown, Young, Rodgers, etc.) and they've been released.

 

In addition, Tuel is a spot removed from the backup role as well.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Orton's Arm]

Hitler's Empire is just as good as Wages of Destruction. Strange Victory is excellent also, but not as highly recommended because it's not as expansive.

 

One of the things I liked about Wages of Destruction was its description of Germany's food situation. Do the other two books you mentioned contain similar descriptions?

[dave mcbride]

One of the things I liked about Wages of Destruction was its description of Germany's food situation. Do the other two books you mentioned contain similar descriptions?

 

Hitler's Empire does. It covers a lot of things, but it focuses primarily on the logistical and demographic problems the Nazi rulers created for themselves due to their ad hoc and byzantine structure of imperial governance: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/books/review/Sheehan-t.html?pagewanted=all . Strange Victory is about why France fell in 1940, but it has a lot on pre-war diplomacy that touches on Poland/Russia. It's a very different book, and focuses on the role of intelligence (May's forte).

[southtampacane]

1) Leodis McKelvin is a pleasure to watch. I am the very first to admit that I thought little of him before this season. This man can cover.

 

2) Cordy Glenn gets better each week. Yeah, he really does.

 

3) Early in the game I wrote in my notes that Mario was a non-factor. But he kept fighting and he made tackles, blocked a pass, and had a sack. He makes the big bucks and doesn't quit. He sure has my respect!

 

4) We have had a whole bunch of "apology threads" on this board. Who is going to be the first to apologize to BADOLBEELZ about his take on Stevie Johnson?

 

5) In the end there's just a song.

Comes crying like the wind.

Through all the broken dreams,

and vanished years.

Stella Blue.

 

6) EJ was awful today imo. He always seemed slow to make reads. His completion percentage was not good, and he didn't see several wide open receivers. That said, the best pass of his short career was fumbled away by Chandler.

 

7) Bradham didn't show up well on the stat sheet, but he had a KEY tackle on the punt return with 4:26 left in the 4th. This stuff matters.

 

8) Badol, I am not going to start a thread. What I WILL do is state that I am sorry that I AGREED with you. Yes, it's true. You said that you wanted to keep SJ on the team and got attacked. I also posted that I wanted to keep him. I take it back. He lost us another game, and I am at a loss to remember a game that he has won for us. It's a shame that we couldn't get a 3rd round pick for him. I would take it in a heartbeat.

 

9) Is Summers just a bit too quick to signal Goodwin to down kickoffs? Seriously, do the Bills have THAT much to lose by letting him try to run back kicks?

 

10) I gotta tip my hat to Spiller. Was he hurt or not? Either way, he had some splendid runs.

 

11) The Bills need to lock up Branch. He and Hughes were the best Bills defenders in this game in my very humble opinion. I will take it a step further and say that the Bills would not have been in the game without key tackles and pressure from Branch.

 

12) I take it back. Gilmore IS a "shutdown corner." His stupid, ill timed penalties, as well as his poor coverage helps to shut down the Bills ability to win football games.

 

13) Once again, EJ needs more called running plays. He is good at running the football.

 

14) Being a Bills Fan is equivalent to a life of pain, but it is one that I would not trade. We truly are great fans to endure this.

 

15) GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

We don't need more called running plays for EJ. Are you kidding me? Let him have a good solid run of 8-10 games without getting hurt first.

 

If you think the pass to Chandler (wide open, easy throw that any QB could make) was EJ's best you have missed several other much more impressive throws (the bomb to Goodwin where he threw him open into the wind, the long TD to Woods...)

[JohnC]

 

 

To their credit they are 4-8? Of all the new coaching staffs only Jacksonville has fared worse. I think the personnel department was responsible for the slow start but the losses in Pittsburgh and Toronto were about coaching. Poor preparation, bad coaching decisions and in the case of Pittsburgh a poor effort. What is especially damning is that 7 of their first 12 games were played in non-hostile environments. And how often to you get to December and have 3 consecutive games against teams that had only 2-3 wins coming into that month? Their schedule was not an obstacle this year, to say the least.

 

I don't understand your hyper-criticism of this coaching staff, especially considering what preceded them. Is there any doubt that this defensive staff is better than its predecessors? The OC has done a solid job with what he was working with at qb. Calling games for backup caliber qbs (Lewis and Tiel) and then calling games for a rookie qb who has missed practice time prior to the season and during the season is not an easy task.

 

There is a delicate balance that Hackett has to always keep in mind when calling plays for Manuel: He hss to call plays that the rookie qb is able to make at his experience level. You don't think there is a difference calling plays for a Brees or Brady? The repertoire of plays at their disposal is significantly larger than what a rookie qb can handle.

 

When you are a defensive or offensive coordinator you are at the mercy of your talent level. The success of most plays has more to do with the talent of players executing the play (offense and defense) than the play itself.

 

In general, I think the coaching staff is demonstrably better than the prior coaching staffs. Very often what is lost is the player development aspect of their job. It is more than working up a game plan. It is also about developing your younger talent. There again I think they have done a good job.

 

It was very evident to me when the season started that this roster was very limited. This year was mostly dedicated to rebuilding a lackluster roster. In almost every game the team gave a good effort. The team, with the exception of the Steeler and away Jets game, was never outclassed. In general my view is that the HC and his staff have done a quality job.

Edited December 3, 2013 by JohnC

[thewildrabbit]

I would have thought that everyone here understood that coaches play the best players they have. A coach can make a mistake but good players will always get their deserved playing time.

 

The argument that coaches retard a player's growth and abilities is nonsensical to me. Saying that Tuel was a mistake or some of the others you mentioned does not address the central point that a coach can only play players on their roster.

 

If you are a coach and you are unhappy with a player, other than sitting him for another player, what other choice is there?

 

To answer your first question, the GM picks the players. A coach might have influence, but ultimately it is not his call. An exception exists somewhat in Dallas, but that is from the top, not to the top.

For the life of me I can't ever recall a "good" Bills team just outright cutting the starting players after five games or more. These last two regimes both did that very thing with the starting QB Trent Edwards, and then RT Cornell Green who they brought in and paid 2 mill per to take over the RT spot.

 

I have to think that Edwards looked even worse then usual at the start of that year, and result of his being cut was probably because of the poor performance of that 2010 starting O line. They started 0-8 that year, and once Fitz took over he was literally running for his life at times because that line was so bad. Buddy Nix managed to pull Erik Pears, Kraig Urbik off the waiver wire and make them starters.

 

That year Cornell Green had 5 starts at RT, Mansfield Wrotto had 7 starts, and Pears finished up the season. If I recall correctly the starting center Hangartner had back problems,so Wood moved over to center and Urbik started at guard.

 

I can recall players being benched, but not outright cut and replaced with unknowns right off the waiver wire. Because the 2010 debacle happened under Nix I can't help but think he probably reassured Whaley those players I mentioned on this years team could do the job. I followed the Knox, Levy, Phillips teams pretty closely and I don't recall seeing mistakes as glaring as those.

 

 

 

Another something I just don't get, Is why Bills fans continuously have made excuses for the last GM / HC in Nix / Gailey and their many, many mistakes, and now it starts anew.

Edited December 4, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[southtampacane]

I know it des sound a tad crazy & my guess is the Bills will never hve the guts to do it & they would get lambasted for doing it. But here is the thing. The Bills have not had good play from the QB position since Flutie was here. Manuel may or may not be the guy but if a guy like Bridgewater is out there I say the Bills pull the trigger. At the worst we are hedging our bets that Manel does not work out.

 

Barring an injury to EJ, there is zero chance the Bills take a QB next year. We drafted this guy in the first half of the first round. He is ours for at least 4 years.

 

Forget about Bridgewater. He is going to be gone in the first 3 picks.

[southtampacane]

EJ is another Cam Newton its going to take another 2 year for him to have this offense running smooth !

 

Wishful thinking but I hope you are right. I do not see a lot of comparison. Cam is way too cocky for my taste but you cannot deny his dynamic ability. He has played lights out in 2 of his 3 seasons and decent in the other. And now he's winning games.

 

EJ doesn't have nearly as much big play making ability when things break down, and Cam seems a lot more durable.

 

I'd love to see EJ rise to the level of competent QB that can win us a lot of games, but Cam Newton is a freak of nature and EJ is just a big guy with questionable skills.

[Garranimal]

Barring an injury to EJ, there is zero chance the Bills take a QB next year. We drafted this guy in the first half of the first round. He is ours for at least 4 years.

 

Forget about Bridgewater. He is going to be gone in the first 3 picks.

What about blake bortles in the second round......that kid has franchise potential.