A Few Thoughts About The Game, in no particular order.....

[CardinalScotts]

1) Leodis McKelvin is a pleasure to watch. I am the very first to admit that I thought little of him before this season. This man can cover.

 

2) Cordy Glenn gets better each week. Yeah, he really does.

 

3) Early in the game I wrote in my notes that Mario was a non-factor. But he kept fighting and he made tackles, blocked a pass, and had a sack. He makes the big bucks and doesn't quit. He sure has my respect!

 

4) We have had a whole bunch of "apology threads" on this board. Who is going to be the first to apologize to BADOLBEELZ about his take on Stevie Johnson?

 

5) In the end there's just a song.

Comes crying like the wind.

Through all the broken dreams,

and vanished years.

Stella Blue.

 

6) EJ was awful today imo. He always seemed slow to make reads. His completion percentage was not good, and he didn't see several wide open receivers. That said, the best pass of his short career was fumbled away by Chandler.

 

7) Bradham didn't show up well on the stat sheet, but he had a KEY tackle on the punt return with 4:26 left in the 4th. This stuff matters.

 

8) Badol, I am not going to start a thread. What I WILL do is state that I am sorry that I AGREED with you. Yes, it's true. You said that you wanted to keep SJ on the team and got attacked. I also posted that I wanted to keep him. I take it back. He lost us another game, and I am at a loss to remember a game that he has won for us. It's a shame that we couldn't get a 3rd round pick for him. I would take it in a heartbeat.

 

9) Is Summers just a bit too quick to signal Goodwin to down kickoffs? Seriously, do the Bills have THAT much to lose by letting him try to run back kicks?

 

10) I gotta tip my hat to Spiller. Was he hurt or not? Either way, he had some splendid runs.

 

11) The Bills need to lock up Branch. He and Hughes were the best Bills defenders in this game in my very humble opinion. I will take it a step further and say that the Bills would not have been in the game without key tackles and pressure from Branch.

 

12) I take it back. Gilmore IS a "shutdown corner." His stupid, ill timed penalties, as well as his poor coverage helps to shut down the Bills ability to win football games.

 

13) Once again, EJ needs more called running plays. He is good at running the football.

 

14) Being a Bills Fan is equivalent to a life of pain, but it is one that I would not trade. We truly are great fans to endure this.

 

15) GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

15 for 15 this time around....weird how sometimes you can be way off on one, or two....then some weeks right in lock step

[LB3]

Guys the problem is not EJ.

Look no further then Hackett and thus Marrone.

Sorry but these guys will be here two more dreadful seasons and then be fired. They are both in way over their head. They will be here just long enough to ruin EJ's career and confidence. Then Marrone will be an OC back in college and Hackett his QB coach.

Sorry but they lost me yesterday.

I watch a lot of Falcons football. The Bills stunk and wher eunder prepaired after a bye. Inexcuseable.

I hated the Marrone hire when it was made and hate it more now. The guy stinks. Clueless. He is another Mularky, Williams. and Dickie J!!

 

WOW. Just WOW. Please elaborate on how Hackett called a bad game yesterday. Please elaborate on how he fumbled away two chances at winning. I'd love to hear how 400+ yards of offense is bad.

 

John Murphy hung up on every caller who blamed the loss on Hackett today. Wonder why???

 

 

 

This^ horrible coaching staff. Gailey would have two more wins if he was still around. Marrone is very bad.

 

Really?? With his best friend Wannstache as d coordinator? With Gailey and crew we might not have won one game.

Edited December 3, 2013 by KikoSeeBallKikoGetBall

[BADOLBILZ]

1) Leodis McKelvin is a pleasure to watch. I am the very first to admit that I thought little of him before this season. This man can cover.

 

2) Cordy Glenn gets better each week. Yeah, he really does.

 

3) Early in the game I wrote in my notes that Mario was a non-factor. But he kept fighting and he made tackles, blocked a pass, and had a sack. He makes the big bucks and doesn't quit. He sure has my respect!

 

4) We have had a whole bunch of "apology threads" on this board. Who is going to be the first to apologize to BADOLBEELZ about his take on Stevie Johnson?

 

5) In the end there's just a song.

Comes crying like the wind.

Through all the broken dreams,

and vanished years.

Stella Blue.

 

6) EJ was awful today imo. He always seemed slow to make reads. His completion percentage was not good, and he didn't see several wide open receivers. That said, the best pass of his short career was fumbled away by Chandler.

 

7) Bradham didn't show up well on the stat sheet, but he had a KEY tackle on the punt return with 4:26 left in the 4th. This stuff matters.

 

8) Badol, I am not going to start a thread. What I WILL do is state that I am sorry that I AGREED with you. Yes, it's true. You said that you wanted to keep SJ on the team and got attacked. I also posted that I wanted to keep him. I take it back. He lost us another game, and I am at a loss to remember a game that he has won for us. It's a shame that we couldn't get a 3rd round pick for him. I would take it in a heartbeat.

 

9) Is Summers just a bit too quick to signal Goodwin to down kickoffs? Seriously, do the Bills have THAT much to lose by letting him try to run back kicks?

 

10) I gotta tip my hat to Spiller. Was he hurt or not? Either way, he had some splendid runs.

 

11) The Bills need to lock up Branch. He and Hughes were the best Bills defenders in this game in my very humble opinion. I will take it a step further and say that the Bills would not have been in the game without key tackles and pressure from Branch.

 

12) I take it back. Gilmore IS a "shutdown corner." His stupid, ill timed penalties, as well as his poor coverage helps to shut down the Bills ability to win football games.

 

13) Once again, EJ needs more called running plays. He is good at running the football.

 

14) Being a Bills Fan is equivalent to a life of pain, but it is one that I would not trade. We truly are great fans to endure this.

 

15) GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

1) Leodis deserves the praise. He has been excellent.

 

2) Agreed on Cordy Glenn. He is playing like a $10M LT.

 

3)Mario brings it but teams have just started gameplanning around him. When Pettine lined him up over center twice he absolutely floored Peter Konz. A sack and a QB hit. With an immobile QB I want to see my best pass rusher on the worst pass blocker a lot. You want someone to set the edge in place of Mario then move Dareus out wide on those snaps. Dareus had a rough day yesterday. Not sure why he is so up and down.

 

4)Apologies aren't going to bring the playoffs back unfortunately. Stevie is who he is. Good player but his problems are real.

 

6)I agree that EJ was awful. It really comes down to whether or not you think struggling to hit open receivers is acceptable because he is a rookie. I am not giving up on him, but I want to see Hackett open it up more so we can see what EJ can do when he gets in a rhythm.

 

7)Bradham is legitimate depth. Hopefully the days of having to carry a Chris White on the roster are over for a while.

 

8)I still think sticking with SJ is the best solution. There isn't a precise parallel by any means but McKelvin used to kill us too. Marrone definitely needs to figure out a way to get his attention though.

 

9)I think from here on out they should be quicker to take back those kicks. They need to work on their special teams the rest of this season just like everything else. Taking an knee ain't getting it done.

 

10)Yesterday was a good CJ day. He is still a liability in the pass game and he gives you some no gains on plays that Fred Jackson will consistently get you some yardage. The Bills have two good backs and no great one. Fred is the Flutie and CJ is the Rob Johnson. If we were getting excellent QB play the RB play would be more respected. Too bad Fred is getting so long in the tooth. They need to work on finding value at RB in the middle rounds in this coming draft before it becomes a need.

 

11)Branch is playing at a high level. His length is a great fit in Pettines defense. The Bills ran into an OL that could handle the shorter, stouter interior DL today. Hughes is a high quality 3rd down rusher. Glad they have him for another year.

 

12)Gilmore has been a huge disappointment. It's kind of annoying when you are seeing players get cramps too. That is a matter of hydration. The Bills just consistently seem less prepared to play than good teams. I am not done with Marrone yet, but if this doesn't get turned around with all the talent this team has now accumulated then the next hire needs to be a proven winner who can command the respect and attention of the players. The culture of losing is tough to turn around. If I am Marrone, I am asking the scouts to find me the best QB prospect in this upcoming draft and don't be shy about drafting him in round 1. Marrone's personality alone hasn't changed the ways of this team. Nothing has changed and now they are used to losing with Marrone so it's not going to get any easier for him to convey his message. He needs a game-changing QB, IMO. EJ may eventually be that guy but right now the only consistent positive in his game has been not turning the ball over. QB's like that can win enough to get you to the playoffs, but you need to have the better roster week in and week out to succeed with a true game manager.

 

13) I agree that EJ should be allowed to run. He isn't a sacred cow. I think running some would open up the field a bit for him, possibly simplify some of his decisions and help him get in a rhythm early. I'd rather see him tuck and run a couple out of the read option than watch him tentatively throw poor passes for much of the game. On a positive note, he looks much sharper in the clutch. But in all fairness, the aforementioned Rob Johnson had some great moments in the clutch....game winning scrambles, setting up the should have been game winning FG in TN, the epic battle with Flutie in SD.....but he could rarely get the fire burning earlier in games. What I am getting at is that just because he shows focus in the clutch doesn't mean EJ will ever become a consistent 60 minute QB.

Edited December 3, 2013 by BADOLBEELZ

[Al Cowlings]

 

 

WOW. Just WOW. Please elaborate on how Hackett called a bad game yesterday. Please elaborate on how he fumbled away two chances at winning. I'd love to hear how 400+ yards of offense is bad.

 

John Murphy hung up on every caller who blamed the loss on Hackett today. Wonder why???

 

 

 

Really?? With his best friend Wannstache as d coordinator? With Gailey and crew we might not have won one game.

 

They won more games with Fitztrajic as QB! Look at Buffalo's team defense stats this year-they are terrible. Keep drinking the Kool Aide.

[LB3]

 

 

They won more games with Fitztrajic as QB! Look at Buffalo's team defense stats this year-they are terrible. Keep drinking the Kool Aide.

 

You should look at the stats as well. We are better in yards allowed per game and points allowed per game. We are also number one in the league in sacks and near the top in turnovers. So keep drinking your own ill informed Kool aid.

 

Also. Unbelievable! They've won less games while not having played all 16 games. Great analysis.

Edited December 3, 2013 by KikoSeeBallKikoGetBall

[K-9]

> My posting history here suggest otherwise. I've disagreed with countless opinions around here over the years and have benefitted greatly from different points of view.

 

For every time I've seen you engage in the kind of interaction you've described above, there have been at least five times when you've acted condescending toward someone for having a different opinion than yours. You may not realize how dogmatic you come across.

 

Take last year's discussion about Wannestedt for example. It was crystal clear to you that the problem with last year's defense was the players. Not the coaching by any means. The players only. To your credit, you did say a few things in support of that point, instead of just presenting an unsupported opinion. But you came across as though your own arguments were the only thing you could see. When others pointed out that the defense might have benefited from a little extra creativity or unpredictability, the point didn't seem to register with you. Or if it did register, you didn't communicate that fact. You seemed just as frustrated with those who disagreed with you as you would have been with someone who believed that 2 + 2 = 5.

 

The problem with committing so firmly to such a one-sided view is that if you're wrong--as you were about last year's defense--it's hard to backtrack. I'm not trying to suggest that I'm right 100% of the time either, because I'm not.

 

If you want to have reasonable discussions with me, fine. But going into that, there needs to be an understanding that neither of us will disrespect the other; that we're both capable of being wrong, and that no one's unsupported opinion should be confused with fact.

 

This year's defensive performance is bearing my point about players vs. scheme quite nicely, thank-you. Different scheme, same crap defense for the most part. Oh, we've gotten some more sacks due to scheme, but that's about it. Secondly, my main gripe about last year's defense was that we had a crap LB corps, no SS, and and a weakside DE that had no business playing in this league. Lo and behold, NO LB remains the same or in the same position, our SS was cut, and God only knows where Kyle Moore is. I've had no less than 2 NFL HCs and 5 NFL DCs over the last 35 years tell me personally that talent trumps scheme every time. So no, on this matter, I don't think my opinion is uninformed or unsupported in the least. Quite the contrary. Could Wanny have done a better job in putting players in positions to succeed. Absolutely. But he didn't trust his players enough given the woeful lack of talent at his disposal so it was completely understandable from my perspective. As well as to others that I trust implicitly on the matter.

 

As to the rest of your condescending tripe about my inability to accept counter-points to any argument and your completely made up statistic in that regard, well, I'm not surprised.

 

 

GO BILLS!!!

[ganesh]

This EJ stuff is crazy...the guy played well. He wasn't perfect, but I'm seeing his performance compared to the Steelers' game? This cannot be a serious statement.

 

He made some very good throws and had a great TD run...and let's not forget he played his best football when the game was on the line; that's what franchise QBs do.

 

I'd also like to see what his numbers would be like if Goodwin doesn't get held on at least one of the two deep over-throws from EJ (I personally thought one of them was borderline holding, while the second was obvious IMO).

 

This kid's going to be good; just give him some time to develop. If today is "awful" in your book, then I think we're going to be very, very happy with him once he goes through another off-season of NFL maturation.

 

And he has great chemistry with Woods. Woods should be his #1 option and not SJ

[chris heff]

 

 

I've tried two different methods of evaluating college QBs. Method 1 is to rely on draft experts to interpret the raw data for me. Method 2 is to look at the raw data myself. When using Method 2, I came away with a favorable opinion of Jimmy Clausen; much to my own embarrassment. Granted, I only watched one of Jimmy's games (the one against Stanford). I'm sure that the most respected experts watched each of his games. I imagine many of them used coaches' film, not just what you see on television.

 

On the other hand, my predictions based on Method 1 have generally (but not always) been reliable. I do not consider myself better at breaking down football film than an expert like Vic Carucci or Greg Cosell; so there's no intrinsic reason to believe that Method 2 should yield better results than Method 1.

 

> That being said blaming yesterday's loss on Manuel is like blaming World War II on Poland.

 

In 1939, the French had promised Poland that in an event of a German attack, France would launch a general offensive against Germany. This promise was a lie.

 

************

In his post-war diaries [british] general Edmund Ironside, the chief of Imperial General Staff commented on French promises "The French had lied to the Poles in saying they are going to attack. There is no idea of it".[25]

***********

 

The Polish government naively believed the French politicians' promises; and adopted an anti-German foreign policy. They ignored Germany's offer of a Germano-Polish alliance against the Soviet Union; and refused to return any Polish-occupied German territory to Germany. It became clear that Poland would fight against Germany in any general European conflict. Whether that justified the German invasion may be a little off-topic for this thread. The point I'm making here is that the truth is sometimes more complex than things may first appear. It's generally worth the time to take a second or even third look before making up one's mind.

Do you pontificate for a living? That was the excuse for invading Poland if your looking for the blame for World War II it lies in World War I and the Treaty of Versailles.

 

Nice use of Wikipedia though.

 

By the way both Kaiser Wilhelm and Hitler had good YPA, arms strength, accuracy, but bad decision making. Neither could win the big one.

Edited December 3, 2013 by chris heff

[OldTimer1960]

Geno Smith was awful today....EJ was not....he was a damn good rookie qb in his seventh game who didnt make any big mistakes, completed 63 percent of his throws and put his team in spot to win with his play not just once but twice with the game on the line. ....soe of your comments are insightful. Others not so much....

 

+1

 

I don't understand why many are so harsh on Manuel. If that was "awful" then there are no words for some QB performances. Again, I don't know if Manuel will be the long- term answer, but I've been generally pleased with his play so far (Pittsburgh game was tough to watch, though)

[KRT88]

My biggest observation is simple:

 

the offensive play calling lacks creativity.

 

I did not recall seeing one first down play action pass.

I did not recall seeing on screen play called

How many times do we pass on first down?

 

This team has two of the best backs in the league, why is it that they can never be on the field together.

 

Imagine you are a defensive coordinator and you see Spiller and Jackson lineup in a split formation. Spiller motions out and draws a linebacker to cover him, the offense needs to run a clear out and use that advantage. Start with Spiller out wide and bring him in, the linebackers have to move up, and Jackson can go backside against the defense. I can't imagine how using the two together wouldn't benefit out young QB. Obviously not all the time but several times a game.

[GunnerBill]

I do agree with the point that there must at least be some plays we could run where CJ and Fred are on the field together. Even Gailey had a couple of them in his playbook last year. Hackett hinted at it in press conferences during camp, but unless I missed it (I've seen every game except for the Saints game and the second quarter in Pittsburgh) I've not seen them in on the same play once. Having said that (and bearing in mind my question about why we had CJ in the backfield and not Fred when we could have killed clock with 5 minutes to go) I agree with the general view that you can't lay Sunday's defeat at the hands of the play calling. The offense put up 31 and had the ball in field goal range with 20 seconds to go..... then Stevie dropped it.

[dave mcbride]

 

 

I've tried two different methods of evaluating college QBs. Method 1 is to rely on draft experts to interpret the raw data for me. Method 2 is to look at the raw data myself. When using Method 2, I came away with a favorable opinion of Jimmy Clausen; much to my own embarrassment. Granted, I only watched one of Jimmy's games (the one against Stanford). I'm sure that the most respected experts watched each of his games. I imagine many of them used coaches' film, not just what you see on television.

 

On the other hand, my predictions based on Method 1 have generally (but not always) been reliable. I do not consider myself better at breaking down football film than an expert like Vic Carucci or Greg Cosell; so there's no intrinsic reason to believe that Method 2 should yield better results than Method 1.

 

> That being said blaming yesterday's loss on Manuel is like blaming World War II on Poland.

 

In 1939, the French had promised Poland that in an event of a German attack, France would launch a general offensive against Germany. This promise was a lie.

 

************

In his post-war diaries [british] general Edmund Ironside, the chief of Imperial General Staff commented on French promises "The French had lied to the Poles in saying they are going to attack. There is no idea of it".[25]

***********

 

The Polish government naively believed the French politicians' promises; and adopted an anti-German foreign policy. They ignored Germany's offer of a Germano-Polish alliance against the Soviet Union; and refused to return any Polish-occupied German territory to Germany. It became clear that Poland would fight against Germany in any general European conflict. Whether that justified the German invasion may be a little off-topic for this thread. The point I'm making here is that the truth is sometimes more complex than things may first appear. It's generally worth the time to take a second or even third look before making up one's mind.

Implying that Poland could have avoided a war with Germany if they had allied with them is simply wrong. I suggest reading Ernest May's STRANGE VICTORY, Mark Mazower's HITLER'S EMPIRE, and Adam Tooze's WAGES OF DESTRUCTION. All along, Hitler firmly intended to swallow up Poland, and he was also intent on war. Poland and the east were the basis of lebensraum. Poland had no way out. The decision had been made years before.

[Kemp]

Guys the problem is not EJ.

Look no further then Hackett and thus Marrone.

Sorry but these guys will be here two more dreadful seasons and then be fired. They are both in way over their head. They will be here just long enough to ruin EJ's career and confidence. Then Marrone will be an OC back in college and Hackett his QB coach.

Sorry but they lost me yesterday.

I watch a lot of Falcons football. The Bills stunk and wher eunder prepaired after a bye. Inexcuseable.

I hated the Marrone hire when it was made and hate it more now. The guy stinks. Clueless. He is another Mularky, Williams. and Dickie J!!

 

I love when fans think a coach can ruin a player's career when it is the exact opposite.

[FLFan]

Implying that Poland could have avoided a war with Germany if they had allied with them is simply wrong. I suggest reading Ernest May's STRANGE VICTORY, Mark Mazower's HITLER'S EMPIRE, and Adam Tooze's WAGES OF DESTRUCTION. All along, Hitler firmly intended to swallow up Poland, and he was also intent on war. Poland and the east were the basis of lebensraum. Poland had no way out. The decision had been made years before.

You are correct. See also The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, William Shirer. I am still not sure what this has to do with a debate about EJ Manuel.

[K-9]

I love when fans think a coach can ruin a player's career when it is the exact opposite.

 

^This. I'm glad someone finally made this point. Although there will be some trumpeting the exception as the rule that refutes your point. But you are spot on here. It's always been a player's league and always will be. Poor players get more coaches fired than coaches cut good players by a WIDE margin. I mean, it's not even close.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[34-78-83]

Thanks Bill and some of the other folks for your opinions! Always appreciated... Also found a new retard or two to block! Good thread

[thebandit27]

 

I think you are referring to something I wrote here.......and I was serious.....but my meaning wasn't in the way that you took it be.

 

I'll preface this by saying that I hold no stock in my opinions in this sort of area....but conversely, I rarely make comment in these areas unless I feel confident that I have seen something.

 

My comment comparing his performance to the Steelers game was nothing to do with his stats or overall achievements in each game. Obviously he played a vastly better game against the Falcons than he did against the Steelers. My correlation was instead one of how I perceived his demeanor on the field.

 

Through most of the Falcons game I felt that he was not totally confident. This then caused him to play a more "game manager" role(which he did fairly well in) rather than a confident "play maker" role which he exhibited more in the Jets game.

 

In my mind.....assuming my amateur and perhaps naive thoughts have some validity.....this is a good sign for the concept that EJ can become an elite QB. If many of the flaws that he has shown are a product of being a nervous rookie, and not endemic to his actual abilities......when he overcomes the nerves and plays the game in a confident and relaxed manner, he might well become the answer at QB that we have been looking for.

 

Well that makes about 150,000 times more sense than what I had originally interpreted.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

[chris heff]

 

You are correct. See also The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, William Shirer. I am still not sure what this has to do with a debate about EJ Manuel.

It is my fault. I wrote that blaming Manuel for this loss was like blaming Poland for WWII.

[thewildrabbit]

I love when fans think a coach can ruin a player's career when it is the exact opposite.

Who put the player on the field in the first place?

 

The do have tiers of ability, and its up to the coaches to evaluate the talent, and put the best players on the field.

 

Some players like LG Colin Brown or CB Justin Rodgers should have never been starters or even seen the field during a regular season game. Jeff Tuel should have never seen the field this year as the starting QB. Backup guard Sam young should have never seen the field. All but Tuel have been outright cut from the team, and Tuel is now 3rd string.

 

I get it that Marrone, Hackett are rookie NFL coaches at their jobs, and so is new GM Doug Whaley. So in my view they get more of a pass in their first year then both very NFL experienced Buddy Nix / Chan Gailey should have gotten. To their credit they have already equaled Nix / Gailey in their first 2010 season. Plus, this years Bills still have a chance to finish with a winning record, and they managed this with 3 very raw rookies at QB too.

[Orton's Arm]

Implying that Poland could have avoided a war with Germany if they had allied with them is simply wrong. I suggest reading Ernest May's STRANGE VICTORY, Mark Mazower's HITLER'S EMPIRE, and Adam Tooze's WAGES OF DESTRUCTION. All along, Hitler firmly intended to swallow up Poland, and he was also intent on war. Poland and the east were the basis of lebensraum. Poland had no way out. The decision had been made years before.

 

I've already read Adam Tooze's Wages of Destruction. One of the best history books I've ever encountered, on any subject. If the other two books you mentioned are anywhere near that category, I'll have to read them as well.

 

I've also read the book another poster recommended: William Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. That book had made a very favorable impression on me at the time. But the more I learned from other sources, the lower my opinion of it became. Ironically enough, one of those other sources was the aforementioned Wages of Destruction.