A Few Thoughts About The Game, in no particular order.....

[thebandit27]

I agree with your last statement. It was a read. He made the right read to pass the ball. But then in your first paragraph you said it wasn't a read and react decision for the QB..... when it most definitely was.

 

 

 

I agree with this

That Jeff Tuel called an audible is entirely the point, this entire discussion for me has been solely based on you stating Jeff Tuel called an "audible" on both the Goodwin TD and the pick 6!

 

 

So, did you in fact mean that Tuel had an "option" of calling a play of his choosing, and chose to call both those pass plays? Or did he call audibles at the line?

 

You guys are wildly missing the point here...you're confusing semantics with mechanics. When the QB reads the defense and changes the play, it's an audible; plan and simple.

 

When the QB comes to the LOS without a play call, like in a 2-minute drill, and calls a play at the LOS, it's what I referred to as a "read-and-react" scenario. It's worth noting, however, that teams rarely ever do that; 99% of the time, in a 2-min drill, a team has a group of play calls that the QB simply picks from at the line (without one particular call being a primary). I would NOT call these audbiles.

 

What K-9 and others are trying to explain is that this wasn't a case of coming to the line with a group of plays for the given personnel set and giving the QB the responsibility of calling a play; this play (the pick-6 against KC) was not that scenario. That play was a called running play as the primary, that had a secondary option for the QB to audible to a pass play if the D showed an all-out blitz.

 

That's the difference between what you folks are calling an "option" (which NFL teams do use in the case of a 2-min drill) and what NFL teams refer to as package plays with built-in audibles. Just because a team runs an up-tempo offense doesn't mean they're doing what you've described...in fact, most times it isn't that way.

Edited December 5, 2013 by thebandit27

[cvanvol]

You guys are wildly missing the point here...you're confusing semantics with mechanics. When the QB reads the defense and changes the play, it's an audible; plan and simple.

 

When the QB comes to the LOS without a play call, like in a 2-minute drill, and calls a play at the LOS, it's what I referred to as a "read-and-react" scenario. It's worth noting, however, that teams rarely ever do that; 99% of the time, in a 2-min drill, a team has a group of play calls that the QB simply picks from at the line (without one particular call being a primary). I would NOT call these audbiles.

 

What K-9 and others are trying to explain is that this wasn't a case of coming to the line with a group of plays for the given personnel set and giving the QB the responsibility of calling a play; this play (the pick-6 against KC) was not that scenario. That play was a called running play as the primary, that had a secondary option for the QB to audible to a pass play if the D showed an all-out blitz.

 

That's the difference between what you folks are calling an "option" (which NFL teams do use in the case of a 2-min drill) and what NFL teams refer to as package plays with built-in audibles. Just because a team runs an up-tempo offense doesn't mean they're doing what you've described...in fact, most times it isn't that way.

 

An audible has no input from the OC because the mic is turned off to the QBs helmet. In this case Jeff was told to run the ball and if he saw a scenario to pass out of the same formation. That is not an audible.

 

An audible would have been Jeff changing the OCs playcall. It wasnt changed.

[thebandit27]

An audible has no input from the OC because the mic is turned off to the QBs helmet. In this case Jeff was told to run the ball and if he saw a scenario to pass out of the same formation. That is not an audible.

 

An audible would have been Jeff changing the OCs playcall. It wasnt changed.

 

As I said before:

 

Packaged plays are not a new concept...audibles have always been packaged plays. Teams have bread-and-butter plays that the QB can check to in any situation; that's what an audible is...the QB doesn't decide to call a completely different play complete with pass routes/run paths, blocking sets/protections, progressions, etc. At least I'm not aware of any team that's done that...perhaps K-9 or someone else who's been around the game more/longer than I have is familiar with a team(s) that have done so; I'm not.

 

I'll leave it at that...have a good one.

Edited December 5, 2013 by thebandit27

[cvanvol]

As I said before:

 

Packaged plays are not a new concept...audibles have always been packaged plays. Teams have bread-and-butter plays that the QB can check to in any situation; that's what an audible is...the QB doesn't decide to call a completely different play complete with pass routes/run paths, blocking sets/protections, progressions, etc. At least I'm not aware of any team that's done that...perhaps K-9 or someone else who's been around the game more/longer than I have is familiar with a team(s) that have done so; I'm not.

 

I'll leave it at that...have a good one.

 

So you dont think Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are calling entirely different plays at the line? What about when they change the formation entirely or empty the back field?

[thebandit27]

So you dont think Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are calling entirely different plays at the line? What about when they change the formation entirely or empty the back field?

 

Entirely different plays? No.

 

What Manning (and to a lesser extent Brady) does is make changes to the offensive set. Sure, he gets more freedom to change pre-snap sets and center protection schemes toward specific things he sees in the defense, but he's not calling an entirely new play. He may move a RB into the slot to get a better feel for the coverage before the snap, or call out a key defender around which he wants to center the protection scheme (all Bills' fans still shudder when they're reminded of "43 is the Mike").

 

It's important to understand, however, that all of this pre-snap action is still based on a specific primary play call (and yes, that call very likely has a secondary option to run/pass based on a specific look the D could show).

[thewildrabbit]

I don't know if it meets the textbook definition of "audible" or not. Here' what Doug Marrone said after the game about Tuel's ill advised pass at the 1 yard line:

 

“Situationally do you question the play call? No,” said Marrone. “Do you question the execution of it? Yes. Should we go in there and try to keep it and run and work on it. It’s a play that in the field you pull it and throw it, a lot of times down the goal line we don’t pull it and throw it so we’ve got to do a better job coaching it.”

 

"pull it and throw it" seems to indicate to me that it's a run play, but the QB can pass if he wants.

Yea well.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/98079/dissecting-tuels-game-changing-pick-six

 

"Situationally, do you question the play call? No. Do you question the execution of it? Yes," Marrone said. "Should we go in there and try to keep running and work on it? It's a play in the [middle of the] field that we do pull it and throw it, a lot of times down the goal line we don't pull it and throw it. We've got to do a better job coaching it."

 

I think as someone else pointed out that the play should have been a QB sneak or a run with Choice as he has been the goal line RB. Either way, I'm with Sal Maiorana on this one, and still think it was a huge mistake by the coaches to allow Tuel to have any passing options in that situation.

[thebandit27]

Yea well.

 

http://espn.go.com/b...anging-pick-six

 

"Situationally, do you question the play call? No. Do you question the execution of it? Yes," Marrone said. "Should we go in there and try to keep running and work on it? It's a play in the [middle of the] field that we do pull it and throw it, a lot of times down the goal line we don't pull it and throw it. We've got to do a better job coaching it."

 

I think as someone else pointed out that the play should have been a QB sneak or a run with Choice as he has been the goal line RB. Either way, I'm with Sal Maiorana on this one, and still think it was a huge mistake by the coaches to allow Tuel to have any passing options in that situation.

 

Couldn't that also mean that they need to do a better job of coaching the QB where to throw the ball in that situation?

[cvanvol]

Entirely different plays? No.

 

What Manning (and to a lesser extent Brady) does is make changes to the offensive set. Sure, he gets more freedom to change pre-snap sets and center protection schemes toward specific things he sees in the defense, but he's not calling an entirely new play. He may move a RB into the slot to get a better feel for the coverage before the snap, or call out a key defender around which he wants to center the protection scheme (all Bills' fans still shudder when they're reminded of "43 is the Mike").

 

It's important to understand, however, that all of this pre-snap action is still based on a specific primary play call (and yes, that call very likely has a secondary option to run/pass based on a specific look the D could show).

 

 

I can understand that, I think we are in agreement for the most part. I think it was a really good read and it should have been a really good touchdown but Tuel got antsy. I like the call, I love the read and I hate the execution. I still think Hackett is a pretty good OC with an even better OC as our head coach.

[K-9]

That Jeff Tuel called an audible is entirely the point, this entire discussion for me has been solely based on you stating Jeff Tuel called an "audible" on both the Goodwin TD and the pick 6!

 

 

So, did you in fact mean that Tuel had an "option" of calling a play of his choosing, and chose to call both those pass plays? Or did he call audibles at the line?

 

Tuel changed the playcall in response to what he saw pre-snap on both the pick 6 as well as the go route to Goodwin.

 

Take that any way you wish. It makes not one bit of difference in your argument that Hackett made those play calls. Indeed, given his tendencies, the LAST thing he would do on a 3rd and 9 is dial up the lowest percentage pass play in the books.

 

At this point we are talking past each other. No need to engage further.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[thewildrabbit]

Tuel changed the playcall in response to what he saw pre-snap on both the pick 6 as well as the go route to Goodwin.

 

Take that any way you wish. It makes not one bit of difference in your argument that Hackett made those play calls. Indeed, given his tendencies, the LAST thing he would do on a 3rd and 9 is dial up the lowest percentage pass play in the books.

 

At this point we are talking past each other. No need to engage further.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree.