A Few Thoughts About The Game, in no particular order.....

[Wayne Cubed]

Huh? Bandits article points that it isn't an audible......

 

Umm yes that is exactly what an audible is.

 

A play that is called run from the huddle or called run at first, that is then changed to a pass, is in fact an audible. Which has been pointed out to you already.

[LB3]

 

Time will tell who is right.

But i am on record that Hackett is bad and will be bad. Marrone will prove what he is at seasons end. IF he fires Hackett we have hope. OR if he demotes Hackett and bring in a real OC.

I was once like you. But after watching the past 4 coaches i am done being a blind loyalist. I will cheer for the Bills and follow them, but i am not going to ignore what i see and my knowledge of the game. Hackett lacks understanding and feel for the game. So does Marrone honestly.

Ask yourself this-

If this was another team, and you watched every game with no emotions, would you still think Hackett was good?

 

Who is right? You obviously aren't understanding my argument. My contention is that it is way too early to tell whether either or both coaches will be good. Do I like what I've seen so far, yes. They have shown promise and they have also made some mistakes. They're rookies, just like so many of our players. . Coaches need to start somewhere too. Remember, people thought Belichick couldn't coach when he was fired from Cleveland. He's now viewed as one of the best ever. Only time will tell with Marrone and Hackett.

 

Thank you for your sage advice as well. Your wisdom and knowledge far surpasses anyone with a different or more open-minded opinion than yours. Your knowledge of the game and the past four coaches is far superior to my own.

 

You should ask yourself the same question you posed to me about how outsiders view our coaches because you are self admittedly jaded. I've only heard a two national experts asked, and they've both been impressed with how our coaches have done this year. They were John Clayton and Brian Billick.

 

You were absolutely correct about one thing. Only time will tell.

[cvanvol]

Umm yes that is exactly what an audible is.

 

A play that is called run from the huddle or called run at first, that is then changed to a pass, is in fact an audible. Which has been pointed out to you already.

 

However if a play can be a run or a pass based off of a pre-snap read it is not an audible.

Edited December 5, 2013 by cvanvol

[thewildrabbit]

Does Tuel let the receivers know in any fashion that he is "checking out of the run?" If you answer yes then it is an audible. If you answer no then it is not an audible (it's one play with multiple options).

Good point! Because Tuel probably had the "option" to call run or pass when he "called the play". Clearly he called for a pass play, and never changed that play at the line of scrimmage. (audible) This is the crux of this debate!

 

I've watched the play multiple times and the three WRs on the right never turn their heads to look at the QB pre snap. The ball is snapped then Stevie Johnson breaks free and is wide open in the end zone with his arm in the air motioning Tuel to throw him the ball. Instead Tuel throws to Graham who wasn't open and the result was a pick 6. This was never a called running play, or those receivers would be blocking instead of running around with their arms in the air.

 

Bottom line: I'm not the only person in the world that thinks letting Jeff Tuel throw in that situation was foolish, as it was covered by the media http://www.democrata...-loss-/3428879/

 

 

 

I'm now with atlbillsfan1975 in thinking Hackett and his playcalling is more of the problem then the Bills QB's themselves.

Edited December 5, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[Wayne Cubed]

Maybe in 1984 that would be true. However if a play can be a run or a pass based off of a pre-snap read is not an audible.

 

Oh really? Then what exactly is it? Because from my book, lineman block differently on run and pass plays. A RB has to go into pass blocking if he isn't getting the ball or he at the very least has to know he isn't getting the ball. WR's have to not block and actually run their routes.

 

So what your saying is a QB can just change to a pass, in his head based on what he see's, without informing his other teammates?

[cvanvol]

http://www.hogshaven.com/2012/10/23/3544066/evolution-of-the-east-coast-offense-run-pass-option

 

 

Guys it wasnt a called run or a called pass. It is a run pass option! It allows the QB to read the defense and make the proper judgement!

 

Oh really? Then what exactly is it? Because from my book, lineman block differently on run and pass plays. A RB has to go into pass blocking if he isn't getting the ball or he at the very least has to know he isn't getting the ball. WR's have to not block and actually run their routes.

 

So what your saying is a QB can just change to a pass, in his head based on what he see's, without informing his other teammates?

 

Yes! That is exactly what I am saying! Pay attention to football and you would see that a lot of teams at every single level are doing this.

[Wayne Cubed]

http://www.hogshaven...run-pass-option

 

 

Guys it wasnt a called run or a called pass. It is a run pass option! It allows the QB to read the defense and make the proper judgement!

 

 

 

Yes! That is exactly what I am saying! Pay attention to football and you would see that a lot of teams at every single level are doing this.

 

Except that play looked nothing like that. And I do "pay attention" thanks. I've seen a run-pass option before and that play looked nothing like it.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Wayne Cubed

[cvanvol]

Oh really? Then what exactly is it? Because from my book, lineman block differently on run and pass plays. A RB has to go into pass blocking if he isn't getting the ball or he at the very least has to know he isn't getting the ball. WR's have to not block and actually run their routes.

 

So what your saying is a QB can just change to a pass, in his head based on what he see's, without informing his other teammates?

 

I cant tell if this post is actually sarcastic or not.... if it is I am sorry for letting it go way over my head

 

Except that play looked nothing like that.

 

 

What???? It was quoted in the articles that you mentioned that the play had that option!

[Wayne Cubed]

I cant tell if this post is actually sarcastic or not.... if it is I am sorry for letting it go way over my head

 

 

 

 

What???? It was quoted in the articles that you mentioned that the play had that option!

 

Yes thats right, but you interpret that to mean run-pass option. Option could also mean audible.... Like "Hey Jeff, this is going to be run play but you'll have the option to audible to a pass play depending on what you see from the defense."

 

See what I did there.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Wayne Cubed

[FireChan]

Good point! Because Tuel probably had the "option" to call run or pass when he "called the play". Clearly he called for a pass play, and never changed that play at the line of scrimmage. (audible) This is the crux of this debate!

 

I've watched the play multiple times and the three WRs on the right never turn their heads to look at the QB pre snap. The ball is snapped then Stevie Johnson breaks free and is wide open in the end zone with his arm in the air motioning Tuel to throw him the ball. Instead Tuel throws to Graham who wasn't open and the result was a pick 6. This was never a called running play.

 

Bottom line: I'm not the only person in the world that thinks letting Jeff Tuel throw in that situation was foolish, as it was covered by the media http://www.democrata...-loss-/3428879/

 

 

 

I'm now with atlbillsfan1975 in thinking Hackett and his playcalling is more of the problem then the Bills QB's themselves.

 

So Hackett calls plays that make dump-off the only passes EJ can throw? Doubtful.

 

Tuel had performed admirably prior to that pick-6, much higher than expected. If our offensive line can't get a yard in 2 tries and our QB has been playing pretty good, why would you not allow a pass play there? Playcalling has become the new, "give the ball to Spiller more" repeated ad naseum on this board.

[thebandit27]

Huh? Bandits article points that it isn't an audible......

 

No, it points quite precisely that it IS an audible:

 

Not that this will help, since Fear tends to unabashedly ignore facts that run contrary to his crusade(s), but here are some links that clearly state that Tuel's pick-6 against KC was indeed an audible:

 

http://www.buffaloru...-smith-pick-six

 

"The first three stills show the play design: it's a packaged play, with a run the primary call and a route combination to the right that the quarterback can opt into if he sees a specific coverage from the defense. Still one shows that the Chiefs were in man coverage, which is almost certainly what prompted Tuel to check out of the run and focus on the proverbial pick play to the right."

 

http://espn.go.com/b...anging-pick-six

 

"The play-call, then, was a designed run that could be changed into a pass if the defense showed "all-out" pressure."

 

Couldn't be any clearer: the primary call was a run; Tuel checked out of it.

 

Play changed at line = audible.

 

http://www.sportsdefinitions.com/american-football/Audible.html

 

Packaged plays are not a new concept...audibles have always been packaged plays. Teams have bread-and-butter plays that the QB can check to in any situation; that's what an audible is...the QB doesn't decide to call a completely different play complete with pass routes/run paths, blocking sets/protections, progressions, etc.

[LB3]

 

 

As far as your poins about Marrones credentials. Peyton was the OC with Brees. Marrone was not an intrical part of that system. They have been just fine with out him. And as for Syracuse, come on man, it is Syracuse football. IF Marrone had turned around a SEC program and beat a couple big boys, fine.

 

Here you are wrong. Marrone was the Saints OC from 2006-2008. You denying it doesn't change the FACT that he was OC. If you meant that Payton was the play caller, then you are correct.

 

I'd also contend that it could be harder to turn around a school that doesn't get anything above 3 star recruits. A place that no kid from the south or west wants to go because of the climate in Syracuse. Yes, they play in a dome, but the kids that have never seen snow except on tv have to live in and go to class in that snow every day. He got good production out of average to below average players at best. (With the noted exception of the Jones bros)

 

P.s. You meant integral. I don't believe "intrical" is a word.

Edited December 5, 2013 by KikoSeeBallKikoGetBall

[Bill from NYC]

well i just got back from a 4 month ban for stating my opinions.

 

with that being said...you lost me at number 4 or 5 as you said this post was about your thoughts about the game...you switched from observations to hindsight stats.

 

in my opinion"IMO"and reciting stats is unnecessary.

 

Glad you are back, or else you might have had to change your screen name to "Gondre Reed."

[K-9]

This discussion, like so many others, has devolved into a question of semantics.

 

Whether or not Tuel SAID anything AUDIBLY is not the point. The point is he ELECTED to run a certain play because had the FREEDOM to do that based on what he saw. It was Tuel's CHOICE.

 

Hackett in no way said run pass here and nothing else. An OC wouldn't limit himself like that. Nor should he.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[thebandit27]

http://www.hogshaven...run-pass-option

 

 

Guys it wasnt a called run or a called pass. It is a run pass option! It allows the QB to read the defense and make the proper judgement!

 

 

 

Yes! That is exactly what I am saying! Pay attention to football and you would see that a lot of teams at every single level are doing this.

 

No, it was a packaged play, as clearly outlined in the links provided. The primary call is a run; just because it includes an option to check (a/k/a audible) to a pass doesn't mean it's a read-and-react choice for the QB. The only time it becomes a pass is if the QB reads all-out blitz, which is what happened. It's an audible man; I don't see why anyone would take issue with that.

 

This discussion, like so many others, has devolved into a question of semantics.

 

Whether or not Tuel SAID anything AUDIBLY is not the point. The point is he ELECTED to run a certain play because had the FREEDOM to do that based on what he saw. It was Tuel's CHOICE.

 

Hackett in no way said run pass here and nothing else. An OC wouldn't limit himself like that. Nor should he.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Right...sorry for getting bogged down in the language...the whole spirit of the discussion is that the QB made a choice to change the play from a run to a pass based on reading an all-out blitz. Right read; bad execution.

[Wayne Cubed]

This discussion, like so many others, has devolved into a question of semantics.

 

Whether or not Tuel SAID anything AUDIBLY is not the point. The point is he ELECTED to run a certain play because had the FREEDOM to do that based on what he saw. It was Tuel's CHOICE.

 

Hackett in no way said run pass here and nothing else. An OC wouldn't limit himself like that. Nor should he.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

It is semantics but you're correct, it was Tuel's choice and Tuel should have been given that choice. And why shouldn't he be, he was performing fine to that point.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Wayne Cubed

[cvanvol]

No, it was a packaged play, as clearly outlined in the links provided. The primary call is a run; just because it includes an option to check (a/k/a audible) to a pass doesn't mean it's a read-and-react choice for the QB. The only time it becomes a pass is if the QB reads all-out blitz, which is what happened. It's an audible man; I don't see why anyone would take issue with that.

 

 

 

Right...sorry for getting bogged down in the language...the whole spirit of the discussion is that the QB made a choice to change the play from a run to a pass based on reading an all-out blitz. Right read; bad execution.

 

 

I agree with your last statement. It was a read. He made the right read to pass the ball. But then in your first paragraph you said it wasn't a read and react decision for the QB..... when it most definitely was.

 

This discussion, like so many others, has devolved into a question of semantics.

 

Whether or not Tuel SAID anything AUDIBLY is not the point. The point is he ELECTED to run a certain play because had the FREEDOM to do that based on what he saw. It was Tuel's CHOICE.

 

Hackett in no way said run pass here and nothing else. An OC wouldn't limit himself like that. Nor should he.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I agree with this

[thewildrabbit]

This discussion, like so many others, has devolved into a question of semantics.

 

Whether or not Tuel SAID anything AUDIBLY is not the point. The point is he ELECTED to run a certain play because had the FREEDOM to do that based on what he saw. It was Tuel's CHOICE.

 

Hackett in no way said run pass here and nothing else. An OC wouldn't limit himself like that. Nor should he.

 

GO BILLS!!!

That Jeff Tuel called an audible is entirely the point, this entire discussion for me has been solely based on you stating Jeff Tuel called an "audible" on both the Goodwin TD and the pick 6!

 

Tuel audibled INTO the go route.

Additionally, it's been reported that the Tuel pick 6 at the goal line was an audible out of a Fred Jackson run when Tuel properly read a run blitz to the left side.

So, did you in fact mean that Tuel had an "option" of calling a play of his choosing, and chose to call both those pass plays? Or did he call audibles at the line?

[reddogblitz]

I don't know if it meets the textbook definition of "audible" or not. Here' what Doug Marrone said after the game about Tuel's ill advised pass at the 1 yard line:

 

“Situationally do you question the play call? No,” said Marrone. “Do you question the execution of it? Yes. Should we go in there and try to keep it and run and work on it. It’s a play that in the field you pull it and throw it, a lot of times down the goal line we don’t pull it and throw it so we’ve got to do a better job coaching it.”

 

"pull it and throw it" seems to indicate to me that it's a run play, but the QB can pass if he wants.

[cvanvol]

That Jeff Tuel called an audible is entirely the point, this entire discussion for me has been solely based on you stating Jeff Tuel called an "audible" on both the Goodwin TD and the pick 6!

 

 

So, did you in fact mean that Tuel had an "option" of calling a play of his choosing, and chose to call both those pass plays? Or did he call audibles at the line?

 

I dont think it really matters..... The OC gave him the ability to do what he saw after the Mic in the helmet was turned off. Jeff made the right read in both situations as he should have. However I would argue that this is not an audible as it was laid out for him before the mic was turned off. In a true audible situation the OC has no input whatsoever and the QB must make the choice to change to another play without the input of the OC. If the OC says hey run the ball and throw it if you see this I would not consider that to be an audible.