A Few Thoughts About The Game, in no particular order.....

[K-9]

Like I said, I re watched the game and he most certainly didn't audible at the line for the TD pass to Goodwin. Actually, I re watched both plays, and Tuel didn't call an audible for either play at the line.

 

Seriously? Do you usually just make stuff up to fit the argument?

 

Show me a link, or any proof of any kind that any QB on the 2013 Buffalo Bills can audible whenever they want. Because I don't believe that Hackett let Tuel audible in and out of any plays.

 

Perhaps his mom let him audible in his crib when he was very young, that isn't applicable here.

 

I'm simply trusting my experience and some conversations that have taken place. Additionally, it's been reported that the Tuel pick 6 at the goal line was an audible out of a Fred Jackson run when Tuel properly read a run blitz to the left side. Reporting aside, it was pretty obvious. As for the freedom given to his QBs to elect a go route, that's pretty basic. Not all audibles are emphatically demonstrated or even spoken for that matter. Certain routes against certain coverages dictate the election on any given play. Again, pretty basic stuff, even for greenhorn rookie QBs.

 

Not sure about your snarky comment about calling audibles in the crib, but I can guarantee that Tuel and every other QB in the league was calling audibles in high school if they played in pro sets, which Tuel was.

 

So no, I'm not simply making things up to support my argument at all. Not my style. And I resent your accusation to the contrary. It's all based on my direct experience. But if it fits your narrative to blame it all on Hackett, don't let me stop you. Enjoy yourself. Write him a letter, give him a prank phone call, or burn a cross on his lawn if it helps. But don't try to tell me that his QBs don't have free reign when they see certain things on the field. That's what the game has evolved into and it might behoove you to study it a bit more.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[FireChan]

I'm simply trusting my experience and some conversations that have taken place. Additionally, it's been reported that the Tuel pick 6 at the goal line was an audible out of a Fred Jackson run when Tuel properly read a run blitz to the left side. Reporting aside, it was pretty obvious. As for the freedom given to his QBs to elect a go route, that's pretty basic. Not all audibles are emphatically demonstrated or even spoken for that matter. Certain routes against certain coverages dictate the election on any given play. Again, pretty basic stuff, even for greenhorn rookie QBs.

 

Not sure about your snarky comment about calling audibles in the crib, but I can guarantee that Tuel and every other QB in the league was calling audibles in high school if they played in pro sets, which Tuel was.

 

So no, I'm not simply making things up to support my argument at all. Not my style. And I resent your accusation to the contrary. It's all based on my direct experience. But if it fits your narrative to blame it all on Hackett, don't let me stop you. Enjoy yourself. Write him a letter, give him a prank phone call, or burn a cross on his lawn if it helps. But don't try to tell me that his QBs don't have free reign when they see certain things on the field. That's what the game has evolved into and it might behoove you to study it a bit more.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Just to add to your point K-9, it would be downright idiotic to not allow young QB's audible at the line. When would they get the experience and instinct to do so if not in game situations? If Hackett didn't allow his QB's to audible, it would in fact support the belief that he's an idiot. They don't wait until a QB's second or third year to let him start reading defenses on his own. If they did, teams would have to keep 1st round QB's for 5 years to figure out if they were any good.

[BADOLBILZ]

If Marrone is to be believed, the "two yards and a cloud of dust" running plays that they call repeatedly on first downs early in the game are designed to enable EJ to utilize playaction passes later in the game, which is another way of saying that they are designed to increase EJ's protection on passing plays later in the game.

 

I'm fine with that.

 

It's frustrating to watch but it's not the wrong approach.

 

Two problems:

 

1) You have to win. Playing not to lose and losing 8 out of 12(with 7 home games) is unacceptable.

 

2) You to take the training wheels off at some point.

 

We saw an almost identical approach taken by Steve Fairchild with JP Losman in Jauron year 1. It made JP look pretty efficient as well. As we found out....it wasn't worth the effort to play it that conservative with him.

 

What I don't like seeing with EJ are lots of inaccurate passes. That has been discouraging.

 

Now that the Bills are playing for next season it is time to see what EJ can do with more balanced playcalling. If you can't pass when opponents are expecting that you are going to pass you can't make it in this league.

[thewildrabbit]

I'm simply trusting my experience and some conversations that have taken place. Additionally, it's been reported that the Tuel pick 6 at the goal line was an audible out of a Fred Jackson run when Tuel properly read a run blitz to the left side. Reporting aside, it was pretty obvious. As for the freedom given to his QBs to elect a go route, that's pretty basic. Not all audibles are emphatically demonstrated or even spoken for that matter. Certain routes against certain coverages dictate the election on any given play. Again, pretty basic stuff, even for greenhorn rookie QBs.

 

Not sure about your snarky comment about calling audibles in the crib, but I can guarantee that Tuel and every other QB in the league was calling audibles in high school if they played in pro sets, which Tuel was.

 

So no, I'm not simply making things up to support my argument at all. Not my style. And I resent your accusation to the contrary. It's all based on my direct experience. But if it fits your narrative to blame it all on Hackett, don't let me stop you. Enjoy yourself. Write him a letter, give him a prank phone call, or burn a cross on his lawn if it helps. But don't try to tell me that his QBs don't have free reign when they see certain things on the field. That's what the game has evolved into and it might behoove you to study it a bit more.

 

GO BILLS!!!

When I confronted you with the fact that I re watched the game and Tuel didn't audible at the line for Goodwin's TD, then you changed the story. Sure looks like you changed it to fit the argument to me.

 

The Bills run a version of the hurry up offense, so I highly doubt any change in the play could have occurred while the Bills were getting to the line, and since Tuel most certainly didn't take any time to change the play once the players were at the line. This shows me that there was never an audible called. Furthermore,

 

Hackett made costly calls in Buffalo Bills' loss

 

Rookie mistakes by offensive coordinator and quarterback hurt Bills in loss

 

http://www.democrata...-loss-/3428879/

 

"Now came the play of the game. Third-and-goal, and the receivers stayed in which was the way to go, but Hackett's play concept just didn't make sense. He bunched Stevie Johnson, Marquise Goodwin and T.J. Graham on the right side of the formation, and it created no space for Tuel to squeeze in a pass."

 

Jeff saw the all-out blitz and he wanted to throw the ball to his first read and the guy just stopped and stood there and Jeff let it go. He was so into 'I've got to get it out' and he just threw it a little bit blind. There were a lot of bodies down there.

 

"But perhaps in his excitement, Hackett forgot about who his quarterback was in the Bills 23-13 loss to the Kansas City Chiefs."

 

That last sentence made my entire point in this argument.

 

Enough of this, even when I tell you I re watched the play, and tell you there was no audible. You still insist that because every QB since high school is allowed to call them, then that must be what happened.

Edited December 5, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[Grondre Reed]

well i just got back from a 4 month ban for stating my opinions.

 

with that being said...you lost me at number 4 or 5 as you said this post was about your thoughts about the game...you switched from observations to hindsight stats.

 

in my opinion"IMO"and reciting stats is unnecessary.

[Wayne Cubed]

When I confronted you with the fact that I re watched the game and Tuel didn't audible at the line for Goodwin's TD, then you changed the story. Sure looks like you changed it to fit the argument to me.

 

The Bills run a version of the hurry up offense, so I highly doubt any change in the play could have occurred while the Bills were getting to the line, and since Tuel most certainly didn't take any time to change the play once the players were at the line. This shows me that there was never an audible called. Furthermore,

 

Hackett made costly calls in Buffalo Bills' loss

 

Rookie mistakes by offensive coordinator and quarterback hurt Bills in loss

 

http://www.democrata...-loss-/3428879/

 

"Now came the play of the game. Third-and-goal, and the receivers stayed in which was the way to go, but Hackett's play concept just didn't make sense. He bunched Stevie Johnson, Marquise Goodwin and T.J. Graham on the right side of the formation, and it created no space for Tuel to squeeze in a pass."

 

Jeff saw the all-out blitz and he wanted to throw the ball to his first read and the guy just stopped and stood there and Jeff let it go. He was so into 'I've got to get it out' and he just threw it a little bit blind. There were a lot of bodies down there.

 

"But perhaps in his excitement, Hackett forgot about who his quarterback was in the Bills 23-13 loss to the Kansas City Chiefs."

 

That last sentence made my entire point in this argument.

 

Enough of this, even when I tell you I re watched the play, and tell you there was no audible. You still insist that because every QB since high school is allowed to call them, then that must be what happened.

 

Quoting a sports writer's "opinion" piece does not "make your point." Sal M. is stating an opinion, like you are stating yours. He is as right about Hackett as you are. He has never been been in a NFL organization, so his opinion carries even less weight.

 

I don't understand your crusade against Hackett. Firstly, you stated that Hacket was throwing too much, then it was pointed out that actually he didn't start throwing heavily until the Bills fell behind and that the Bills were still heavily running. You then changed your argument to Hackett is throwing at the wrong times. So now we have you arguing that rookie QB's shouldn't be able to audible. So when should they be able to audible or read defenses? Should Hackett walk out on the field, read the defense for these QB's, then call a play? I'm not sure where you are going with this?

Edited December 5, 2013 by Wayne Cubed

[thewildrabbit]

Additionally, it's been reported that the Tuel pick 6 at the goal line was an audible out of a Fred Jackson run when Tuel properly read a run blitz to the left side. Reporting aside, it was pretty obvious. As for the freedom given to his QBs to elect a go route, that's pretty basic. Not all audibles are emphatically demonstrated or even spoken for that matter. Certain routes against certain coverages dictate the election on any given play. Again, pretty basic stuff, even for greenhorn rookie QBs.

 

Not sure about your snarky comment about calling audibles in the crib, but I can guarantee that Tuel and every other QB in the league was calling audibles in high school if they played in pro sets, which Tuel was.

 

So no, I'm not simply making things up to support my argument at all. Not my style. And I resent your accusation to the contrary. It's all based on my direct experience. But if it fits your narrative to blame it all on Hackett, don't let me stop you. Enjoy yourself. Write him a letter, give him a prank phone call, or burn a cross on his lawn if it helps. But don't try to tell me that his QBs don't have free reign when they see certain things on the field. That's what the game has evolved into and it might behoove you to study it a bit more.

 

I get that any QB can go to the line with several plays available to them, and they do have an option of changing the play in regards to what defensive alignment they see. Fitz was always changing the play at the line because of the defensive formation he saw before the play. This didn't happen on either the Goodwin TD or the pick six because whatever play was first called by the QB, it was never changed at the line. THERE WAS NO AUDIBLE! You keep using that word, and that is not what happened.

 

​What is an audible! "a change in play called out orally after both teams have assumed their positions at the line of scrimmage."

 

Talk about me being snarky... in which of my posts did I ever state that QB's don't audible, and yet you berate me over it ? What I did say was, I highly doubt Hackett lets any of these rookie QB's change the play at the line due to the nature of the hurry up style of offense they are trying to run.

 

But were are talking about two specific plays here, and I can tell you for a fact. I re watched both plays didn't see any "audible" called with either of those plays.

 

Quoting a sports writer's "opinion" piece does not "make your point." Sal M. is stating an opinion, like you are stating yours. He is as right about Hackett as you are. He has never been been in a NFL organization, so his opinion carries even less weight.

 

I don't understand your crusade against Hackett. Firstly, you stated that Hacket was throwing too much, then it was pointed out that actually he didn't start throwing heavily until the Bills fell behind and that the Bills were still heavily running. You then changed your argument to Hackett is throwing at the wrong times. So now we have you arguing that rookie QB's shouldn't be able to audible. So when should they be able to audible or read defenses? Should Hackett walk out on the field, read the defense for these QB's, then call a play? I'm not sure where you are going with this?

If you clicked the link, the author interviewed Hackett and outright asked him what happened on that play, Hackett gave his response.

 

The entire point of this argument was that K-9 is arguing that Tuel called an audible for that play on 3rd down and goal, he didn't!! Even Stevie Johnson talked about the play and stated we ran that very same play in practice in another interview. In every article I've read nowhere does it say that the play was changed at the line by Tuel.

 

What is it with you people that you refuse to believe someone when they say they re watched the play / game and it was never changed at the line.

[LB3]

 

 

​What is an audible! "a change in play called out orally after both teams have assumed their positions at the line of scrimmage."

 

 

The normal definition of audible is "able to be heard".

 

The football definition of audible is "a change in the offensive play called by the QB at the line of scrimmage".

 

(Google definitions)

 

You added "orally" to your definition to accentuate your point. Football audibles can be made using hand signals in addition to shouting them out. Just saying.

Edited December 5, 2013 by KikoSeeBallKikoGetBall

[thebandit27]

Not that this will help, since Fear tends to unabashedly ignore facts that run contrary to his crusade(s), but here are some links that clearly state that Tuel's pick-6 against KC was indeed an audible:

 

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2013/11/5/5068380/bills-vs-chiefs-recap-diagramming-the-sean-smith-pick-six

 

"The first three stills show the play design: it's a packaged play, with a run the primary call and a route combination to the right that the quarterback can opt into if he sees a specific coverage from the defense. Still one shows that the Chiefs were in man coverage, which is almost certainly what prompted Tuel to check out of the run and focus on the proverbial pick play to the right."

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/3609/dissecting-tuels-game-changing-pick-six

 

"The play-call, then, was a designed run that could be changed into a pass if the defense showed "all-out" pressure."

 

Couldn't be any clearer: the primary call was a run; Tuel checked out of it.

[K-9]

Not that this will help, since Fear tends to unabashedly ignore facts that run contrary to his crusade(s), but here are some links that clearly state that Tuel's pick-6 against KC was indeed an audible:

 

http://www.buffaloru...-smith-pick-six

 

"The first three stills show the play design: it's a packaged play, with a run the primary call and a route combination to the right that the quarterback can opt into if he sees a specific coverage from the defense. Still one shows that the Chiefs were in man coverage, which is almost certainly what prompted Tuel to check out of the run and focus on the proverbial pick play to the right."

 

http://espn.go.com/b...anging-pick-six

 

"The play-call, then, was a designed run that could be changed into a pass if the defense showed "all-out" pressure."

 

Couldn't be any clearer: the primary call was a run; Tuel checked out of it.

 

Thank-you, bandit.

 

I don't know why I bother anymore. Used to be a time around here when we could offer some insights into the game without it being resented or taken the wrong way. But anything short of our QBs whispering into the ears of their teammates will convince some people that they indeed have permission to change plays as they see fit.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Beerball]

well i just got back from a 4 month ban for stating my opinions.

What calendar are you using?

[cvanvol]

Not that this will help, since Fear tends to unabashedly ignore facts that run contrary to his crusade(s), but here are some links that clearly state that Tuel's pick-6 against KC was indeed an audible:

 

http://www.buffaloru...-smith-pick-six

 

"The first three stills show the play design: it's a packaged play, with a run the primary call and a route combination to the right that the quarterback can opt into if he sees a specific coverage from the defense. Still one shows that the Chiefs were in man coverage, which is almost certainly what prompted Tuel to check out of the run and focus on the proverbial pick play to the right."

 

http://espn.go.com/b...anging-pick-six

 

"The play-call, then, was a designed run that could be changed into a pass if the defense showed "all-out" pressure."

 

Couldn't be any clearer: the primary call was a run; Tuel checked out of it.

 

Not really.... that isnt an audible. That would be like saying the read option is an audible if the QB keeps it. The OC designed a play with multiple reads, if a QB looks off his primary receiver and checks it to the TE would you consider that an audible?

[Beerball]

 

 

Not really.... that isnt an audible. That would be like saying the read option is an audible if the QB keeps it. The OC designed a play with multiple reads, if a QB looks off his primary receiver and checks it to the TE would you consider that an audible?

Does Tuel let the receivers know in any fashion that he is "checking out of the run?" If you answer yes then it is an audible. If you answer no then it is not an audible (it's one play with multiple options).

[K-9]

When I confronted you with the fact that I re watched the game and Tuel didn't audible at the line for Goodwin's TD, then you changed the story. Sure looks like you changed it to fit the argument to me.

 

The Bills run a version of the hurry up offense, so I highly doubt any change in the play could have occurred while the Bills were getting to the line, and since Tuel most certainly didn't take any time to change the play once the players were at the line. This shows me that there was never an audible called. ...

 

1.) I haven't change anything after being confronted by anything. You may be mistaking me for someone else.

 

2.) Your second paragraph tells me all I need to know. My mistake for engaging in the conversation in the first place.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[stony]

Not really.... that isnt an audible. That would be like saying the read option is an audible if the QB keeps it. The OC designed a play with multiple reads, if a QB looks off his primary receiver and checks it to the TE would you consider that an audible?

 

No its not.

 

You're comparing a play that's in process with the quarterback progressing through his reads to a play call at the line of scrimmage before the ball has been snapped.

 

What you've presented is not the same in any way, shape, or form.

Edited December 5, 2013 by stony

[cvanvol]

Does Tuel let the receivers know in any fashion that he is "checking out of the run?" If you answer yes then it is an audible. If you answer no then it is not an audible (it's one play with multiple options).

 

I would have to see it again, I dont remember him doing anything.

 

No its not.

 

You're comparing a play that's in process with the quarterback progressing through his reads to a play call at the line of scrimmage before the ball has been snapped.

 

What you've presented is not the same in any way, shape, or form.

 

It is just a read before the play compared to one during. The hot route changes before the play depending on where the safeties are lined up and what the defense is showing. I dont see how this is any different.

[atlbillsfan1975]

Very well thought out arguments. You've convinced me. Hackett stinks. Marrone stinks. Only failures and retread head coaches and OC's should be hired from now on. Marrone might have been the OC for the Saints and then the HC for a program that he resurrected, but that's not enough experience. Hackett sucks too. He should have been able to get Jeff Tuel to put up 600 yards on the Chiefs D instead of 500. How dare he not get more out of rookie and back up QB's throwing to mostly rookie and second year players. The audacity of him to have a pulse and relate to his players.

Time will tell who is right.

But i am on record that Hackett is bad and will be bad. Marrone will prove what he is at seasons end. IF he fires Hackett we have hope. OR if he demotes Hackett and bring in a real OC.

I was once like you. But after watching the past 4 coaches i am done being a blind loyalist. I will cheer for the Bills and follow them, but i am not going to ignore what i see and my knowledge of the game. Hackett lacks understanding and feel for the game. So does Marrone honestly.

Ask yourself this-

If this was another team, and you watched every game with no emotions, would you still think Hackett was good?

 

As far as your poins about Marrones credentials. Peyton was the OC with Brees. Marrone was not an intrical part of that system. They have been just fine with out him. And as for Syracuse, come on man, it is Syracuse football. IF Marrone had turned around a SEC program and beat a couple big boys, fine.

Edited December 5, 2013 by atlbillsfan1975

[Wayne Cubed]

If you clicked the link, the author interviewed Hackett and outright asked him what happened on that play, Hackett gave his response.

 

The entire point of this argument was that K-9 is arguing that Tuel called an audible for that play on 3rd down and goal, he didn't!! Even Stevie Johnson talked about the play and stated we ran that very same play in practice in another interview. In every article I've read nowhere does it say that the play was changed at the line by Tuel.

 

What is it with you people that you refuse to believe someone when they say they re watched the play / game and it was never changed at the line.

 

I did click the link and in no part in that article did anything Hackett said prove your point. In fact the parts your bolded and increased the size in your original post, and bolding doesn't make it any more important, were Sal's comments, not Hacketts.

 

Anyways, Bandit has pointed you to 2 articles explaining it was an audible so I don't know where you're are going now.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Wayne Cubed

[cvanvol]

I did click the link and in no part in that article did anything Hackett said prove your point. In fact the parts your bolded and increased the size in your original post, and bolding doesn't make it any more important, were Sal's comments, not Hacketts.

 

Anyways, Bandit has pointed you to 2 articles explaining it was an audible so I don't know where you're are going now.

 

 

Huh? Bandits article points that it isn't an audible......

[Beerball]

 

 

I would have to see it again, I dont remember him doing anything.

I have to believe that he does. You don't want your WR's being lackadaisical in that situation and you don't want your offensive linemen firing out like they would on a running play. He alerted his offense and he ran an alternate play.