A Few Thoughts About The Game, in no particular order.....

[Fan in Chicago]

To be fair to Manuel, Goodwin was well covered all game on deep throws. The Falcons CB played a whale of a game and deserves some credit. That close coverage slowed Goodwin down, and remember, Manuel is throwing to a spot. He assumes that Goodwin can blow by a CB. It didn't happen in that game, unfortunately, but I don't think it's either Goodwin's or Manuel's fault. Sometimes, the opponent's players make good plays.

 

Not going to argue with that but I think tighter throws could have resulted in 2 of those 3 being completed. But my point was that EJ does not have that confidence right now to attempt a tight throw. He is (pure speculation) being told to take a safer option in tight situations. He would rather miss long (a low risk proposition re: INT) than try to fit it in a narrow spot where Goodwin can attempt to wrestle the ball away or worse - have the throw fall short and have the CB look back.

[thewildrabbit]

Very often the word "great" is too casually used. Hackett is not a great OC. The Bills have no "great" coaches on the staff, including the HC.

Oh I dunno, I have a severe case of man love for great DC Mike Pettine even tho the defense was humbled somewhat by Atlanta.

 

 

Those Falcons went 13-3 last season with the same HC, same QB and less injuries.

[FireChan]

Oh I dunno, I have a severe case of man love for great DC Mike Pettine even tho the defense was humbled somewhat by Atlanta.

 

 

Those Falcons went 13-3 last season with the same HC, same QB and less injuries.

 

You mean humbled in every game that we didn't have 3+ takeaways? Our run defense is a sieve, our secondary is playing ok and we pile on a good amount of sacks. Our defense is prettier, but still not good.

[thebandit27]

Did I really just read that Nate Hackett lost the KC game because he didn't call 3 straight running plays at the goal-line?

 

I have to leave before I lose any more brain cells from reading this stuff...

[K-9]

Thank you, as you will not change my opinion.

 

I dunno, perhaps I'm so Bill Parcells old school that I just can't see letting a QB as raw as Tuel was have any options other then hand the ball off, and If the primary receiver isn't open on a pass play then run it or throw it away.

 

The very last thing I would do in that circumstance would be to let the rookie QB throw it up on 3rd and one when my RB's just went 79 yards on 5 carries.

 

 

I'm just a fan, and not the kids coach. But this scouting report would definitely make me think twice about letting this player throw the ball at all. I read this report when I saw that Tuel was starting against the Chiefs.

 

"SUMMARY - Jeffrey Tuel is a senior quarterback playing in Mike Leach's spread offense. There are few progressions that he has to read as the pre-snap read is where the ball goes. When he does go through his progressions he seems to make mistakes with the ball as he tries to fit the ball into tight spaces and his arm simply won't allow him to make those throws. Tuel is going to struggle with a few issues that he won't be able to overcome in the NFL. He doesn't have much ability to move and escape pressure and it will only get worse as the players get faster and stronger in the NFL. Tuel lacks good arm strength and will never be able to make all of the throws that he needs to make as an NFL quarterback. He is mechanically sound, has a quick release and a good throwing motion, but the ball doesn't jump out of his hand. Tuel throws a floating football that seems to stay in the air far too long. He doesn't handle pressure very well and will make poor decisions when pressured. Given that he has little arm talent, doesn't have great escape-ability and tends to make poor decisions, Tuel is not a player that should be drafted. Tuel should be a priority free agent in the 2013 NFL draft."

 

http://www.nationalf...ml&player=42701

 

This kid reminds me so much of Fitz with his quick release, and his arm limitations. Only Tuel can't escape the pocket like Fitz can. A wimpy version of Fitz

 

 

 

EDIT for last bolded. On 3rd down and 9 at the Bills 41, I kinda doubt Tuel needed to audible out of a run play.

 

Who said anything about audibling out of a running play on 3rd and 9?

 

Tuel audibled INTO the go route.

 

All our QBs have that freedom. As well they should. These QBs have been changing plays since high school. It ain't that complicated.

 

If you wish to argue execution, which is what this is all REALLY about, then fine.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[chris heff]

 

 

Not going to argue with that but I think tighter throws could have resulted in 2 of those 3 being completed. But my point was that EJ does not have that confidence right now to attempt a tight throw. He is (pure speculation) being told to take a safer option in tight situations. He would rather miss long (a low risk proposition re: INT) than try to fit it in a narrow spot where Goodwin can attempt to wrestle the ball away or worse - have the throw fall short and have the CB look back.

This is speculation, but I think Manuel is being coached to check down. He is so worried about turnovers that he is very reluctant to try and fit the ball into a tight spot. The other thing that I have noticed is that his best drives have been during two minute drills, this started in the preseason. He seems to be better when he has no choice but take chances. In two minute drills he also stops aiming the ball and just throws it.

[The Big Cat]

This is speculation, but I think Manuel is being coached to check down. He is so worried about turnovers that he is very reluctant to try and fit the ball into a tight spot. The other thing that I have noticed is that his best drives have been during two minute drills, this started in the preseason. He seems to be better when he has no choice but take chances. In two minute drills he also stops aiming the ball and just throws it.

 

I understand how you've connected "coached to checkdown" to "does well with the gloves off in crunch time" but that doesn't jive with what Marrone/Hackett have said about encouraging him to "let it rip."

[LB3]

 

This is speculation, but I think Manuel is being coached to check down. He is so worried about turnovers that he is very reluctant to try and fit the ball into a tight spot. The other thing that I have noticed is that his best drives have been during two minute drills, this started in the preseason. He seems to be better when he has no choice but take chances. In two minute drills he also stops aiming the ball and just throws it.

 

I agree that he gets better when he has no choice but to take chances. I'd have to disagree that he's being taught to check down. I'm basing my opinion on the fact that there have been reports that Hackett has implored him to take chances and trust what he sees. Per these reports, two of the meetings where this was stressed the most was after the Jets and Steelers games. Games in which he was extremely hesitant. Also, if you look back at his college career, he was never a gunslinger. He was always trying to protect the ball, sometimes to a fault.

Edited December 4, 2013 by KikoSeeBallKikoGetBall

[The Big Cat]

I agree that he gets better when he has no choice but to take chances. I'd have to disagree that he's being taught to check down. I'm basing my opinion on the fact that there have been reports that Hackett has implored him to take chances and trust what he sees. Per these reports, two of the meetings where this was stressed the most was after the Jets and Steelers games. Games in which he was extremely hesitant. Also, if you look back at his college career, he was never a gunslinger. He was always trying to protect the ball, sometimes to a fault.

 

Also, since Hackett has taken to the sideline, the offense has put up more than 700 yards and scored more than 60 points...in two games...one against a historically elite run defense.

[JohnC]

Oh I dunno, I have a severe case of man love for great DC Mike Pettine even tho the defense was humbled somewhat by Atlanta.

 

Mike Pettine is a good coach. Dick LeBeau is a great coach. They are world's apart.

 

 

 

 

[K-9]

I agree that he gets better when he has no choice but to take chances. I'd have to disagree that he's being taught to check down. I'm basing my opinion on the fact that there have been reports that Hackett has implored him to take chances and trust what he sees. Per these reports, two of the meetings where this was stressed the most was after the Jets and Steelers games. Games in which he was extremely hesitant. Also, if you look back at his college career, he was never a gunslinger. He was always trying to protect the ball, sometimes to a fault.

 

Trusting what he sees is an interesting concept for a QB because he often has to trust what he doesn't see, like a vacant area he knows his receiver will find, etc. Takes a lot of reps with your receivers and, more importantly, a pretty deep understanding of what defenses are trying to do out there before a QB has that kind of confidence more often than not. We've seen glimpses of EJ's ability to throw into tight windows and take chances. I think he'll attempt more as he matures.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[chris heff]

 

 

I agree that he gets better when he has no choice but to take chances. I'd have to disagree that he's being taught to check down. I'm basing my opinion on the fact that there have been reports that Hackett has implored him to take chances and trust what he sees. Per these reports, two of the meetings where this was stressed the most was after the Jets and Steelers games. Games in which he was extremely hesitant. Also, if you look back at his college career, he was never a gunslinger. He was always trying to protect the ball, sometimes to a fault.

The first time I saw anything about opening things up was after the Pittsburg game. I think the handcuffs were on early in the season. The Jet game was pretty opened up, not a lot of check downs. Someone in another thread said that the Atlanta DBs had very good coverage all day. I did not look at the all 22 is this correct? Went deep three times, I think, one completion to Woods. Two of best throws were the fumbles. I hope for these next four games they just let him play.

 

People write stuff all the time about his college career. He was pretty successful. Living in FL it is hard not to pay attention to the college teams. College football is king in this state. The FSU offense is misunderstood. I've had conversations with diehard FSU fans, who know their football and what I've been told about that offense is, although the number of plays are limited the same play can be run out of multiple formations. Young receivers can have a very hard time with this. There were times at FSU, when Manuel was hesitant but there were times when the cause of that was receivers not being where they were suppose to be.

 

 

 

Also, since Hackett has taken to the sideline, the offense has put up more than 700 yards and scored more than 60 points...in two games...one against a historically elite run defense.

Why the hell did it take ten games to figure that out?

Edited December 4, 2013 by chris heff

[The Big Cat]

 

Why the hell did it take ten games to figure that out?

 

Haha...unless this season was playoffs or bust for you: who cares!?

[thewildrabbit]

Who said anything about audibling out of a running play on 3rd and 9?

 

Tuel audibled INTO the go route.

 

All our QBs have that freedom. As well they should. These QBs have been changing plays since high school. It ain't that complicated.

 

If you wish to argue execution, which is what this is all REALLY about, then fine.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Have any proof of this or is it pure speculation on your part that Hackett called for a run on 3rd and 9? Because to me that is so far removed from what this OC does every game.

 

EDIT: I just re watched that play over, and the Bills were in a hurry up shotgun situation. There was no changing of the play at the line.

Mike Pettine is a good coach. Dick LeBeau is a great coach. They are world's apart.

40 pts to Chicago, 55 pts to NE is more then Buffalo has allowed this year. Then 37 pts to Minnesota, really? Ole dickie is starting to slip.

 

 

This is Mike Pettine's first year with the Bills and implementing his new defensive scheme. I consider the injuries, the holdout, along with the personnel Pettine has had to deal with this year. That the Bills D was the sole reason as to why the Bills have been in almost every game this season.

 

I also consider what the Bills had at DC the previous 3 years to this one, so Mike is like a miracle man to me.

Edited December 4, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[bisonbrigade]

Mike Pettine is a good coach. Dick LeBeau is a great coach. They are world's apart.

Dick ain't know great coach?

[K-9]

Have any proof of this or is it pure speculation on your part that Hackett called for a run on 3rd and 9? Because to me that is so far removed from what this OC does every game.

 

EDIT: I just re watched that play over, and the Bills were in a hurry up shotgun situation. There was no changing of the play at the line.

 

Once again, I'm not sure what you're referring to regarding a called running play on that 3rd and 9. I would hope Hackett dialed up a pass of some sort in that situation. Regardless, I'm positive that Tuel elected to attempt the go route to Goodwin and that Hackett has given the green light to all of our QBs when they see a certain coverage to do exactly that. Not sure why you don't think that's a good thing. QBs are taught to do this since high school. It's not a big deal.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[atlbillsfan1975]

Well seeing as how we are the 16th ranked offense out of 32, and that for 5 of our games we played with either a 2nd or 3rd string QB (taking Kolb out of the equation), I'd say you are wrong. As far as anyone's contention that they should have planned better at the backup position, see the Packers. All bets are off when your starter goes down. Do I know Hackett is or can be a great OC, no. But there's no way anyone can know that he is or will be a failure.

I would argue that Hackett is not getting enough out of the talent he has.

Very often the word "great" is too casually used. Hackett is not a great OC. The Bills have no "great" coaches on the staff, including the HC. If that is only what you are seeking then the Bills will not have any coaches working the sidelines.

 

Hackett is a very young OC who is going to get better the more he coaches. As with players you are usually not instantly the best you can be. It is a process of growth, learning as you gain experience.

 

I would prefer a young and open minded coach with new ideas and more importantly receptive to new ideas than having the same dullard retread coach who inflexibly clings to his "system" come hell or high water.

 

As I have repeatedly stated Hackett is in a very challenging situation calling plays for a very raw qb. In general, I think he has done a good job considering the limited experience of his qb. In addition, I get the sense that he and EJ relate to one another. If you had an old-school tyrant coach you can end up retarding the development of a young qb.

 

Ultimately the success of the coaches is more determined by the quality of the players being coached than by the coaching. The Bills are not at the point where they have a robust roster. It is a work in process with the trajectory moving upwards. At least that is how I see it.

What have you seen that even remotely points to him being open minded?

He runs the same CJ play over and over at the same points in the game.

Sorry he has not gotten better from week one to week 13.

[thewildrabbit]

Who said anything about audibling out of a running play on 3rd and 9?

 

Tuel audibled INTO the go route.

 

Like I said, I re watched the game and he most certainly didn't audible at the line for the TD pass to Goodwin. Actually, I re watched both plays, and Tuel didn't call an audible for either play at the line.

 

Once again, I'm not sure what you're referring to regarding a called running play on that 3rd and 9. I would hope Hackett dialed up a pass of some sort in that situation. Regardless, I'm positive that Tuel elected to attempt the go route to Goodwin and that Hackett has given the green light to all of our QBs when they see a certain coverage to do exactly that. Not sure why you don't think that's a good thing. QBs are taught to do this since high school. It's not a big deal.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Seriously? Do you usually just make stuff up to fit the argument?

 

Show me a link, or any proof of any kind that any QB on the 2013 Buffalo Bills can audible whenever they want. Because I don't believe that Hackett let Tuel audible in and out of any plays.

 

Perhaps his mom let him audible in his crib when he was very young, that isn't applicable here.

[LB3]

 

I would argue that Hackett is not getting enough out of the talent he has.

 

What have you seen that even remotely points to him being open minded?

He runs the same CJ play over and over at the same points in the game.

Sorry he has not gotten better from week one to week 13.

 

Very well thought out arguments. You've convinced me. Hackett stinks. Marrone stinks. Only failures and retread head coaches and OC's should be hired from now on. Marrone might have been the OC for the Saints and then the HC for a program that he resurrected, but that's not enough experience. Hackett sucks too. He should have been able to get Jeff Tuel to put up 600 yards on the Chiefs D instead of 500. How dare he not get more out of rookie and back up QB's throwing to mostly rookie and second year players. The audacity of him to have a pulse and relate to his players.

[Dibs]

Very well thought out arguments. You've convinced me. Hackett stinks. Marrone stinks. Only failures and retread head coaches and OC's should be hired from now on. Marrone might have been the OC for the Saints and then the HC for a program that he resurrected, but that's not enough experience. Hackett sucks too. He should have been able to get Jeff Tuel to put up 600 yards on the Chiefs D instead of 500. How dare he not get more out of rookie and back up QB's throwing to mostly rookie and second year players. The audacity of him to have a pulse and relate to his players.

 

I personally think that he should have gotten a lot more production out of FJ and CJ when they were injured or couldn't play.......and far more out of SJ and Woods on the weeks that they were injured or couldn't play as well. The incompetence is staggering.