apuszczalowski Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 I don't think they can award the TD. They can if its clear that the result of the play without the interference by the coach would have been a TD, although when you think about it, why couldn't a ref do this every time theres a Pass Interference call in the endzone? A player can do whatever to interfere with a player trying to catch a ball in the endzone and the refs never give them a TD because if it wasn't for the interference it would have been a TD.
stinky finger Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 I said: "If the ref's decision was that he impeded the play and the result would have been a TD they would have flagged it and awarded him a TD" I should have said "could" not "would"! You nailed it my man. They can if its clear that the result of the play without the interference by the coach would have been a TD, although when you think about it, why couldn't a ref do this every time theres a Pass Interference call in the endzone? A player can do whatever to interfere with a player trying to catch a ball in the endzone and the refs never give them a TD because if it wasn't for the interference it would have been a TD. An interesting angle. Maybe it's intent and fact that Tomlin (or whomever) isn't a part of the play.
NoSaint Posted November 29, 2013 Author Posted November 29, 2013 (edited) 6 feet wide, and he was standing on it, with part of his foot touching the green of the field, so he was less then 6' from where he should have been standing considering his toes can go up to the white of the sideline. 8' would have had him standing well onto the field of play and actually may have been a better spot cause the ravens player could have ran by him without going out of bounds and the steelers defender would have run into Tomlin because of the angle he was on. Seems to be alot of Pittsburgh Hatred on this one with talks of how the team should be punished by awarding them a TD that they never would have scored on the play, tossing Tomlin from the game, fining him, and suspending him. i dont hate pittsburgh in the slightest. i think coaches have no business on the field and that message should be sent strongly. some mistakes are minor and should be punished as such, some are major and should be punished as such. i think this is the latter category. this isnt a player jumping a step early, its a coach being YARDS further onto the field than he should be and effecting the flow of the play. with no one between jones and the endzone besides tomlin, i dont think its inappropriate to discuss whether the TD should have been awarded. without having to see tomlin, wonder what the heck he was doing, change his direction inside (and possibly slightly break stride and get closer to the defender that caught him).... who knows if he gets there. probably not, but based on the egregious nature of the violation my gut says the offender shouldnt get the benefit of the doubt if theres question in it. Edited November 29, 2013 by NoSaint
apuszczalowski Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 #12 should have slowed intentionally & let Tomlin's guy tackle him out of bounds taking Tomlin out with them IF he in fact did do this intentionally to send him a message that 2 can play his game !! Of corse that could have caused a bad injury to Tomlin which i would not hope for but i think it is just wrong to pull something like that & at the very least he should have been flagged for being on the field !! What he should have done was continued to run straight and not try to get out of the way. If he runs into Tomlin the play looks much worse and almost a gaurantee that the Refs have to call something if he is touched by the coach on the field before the Steelers defender touches him.
Dibs Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 His foot crossed over as he moved it to jump out of the way but he definitely should not have been standing there in the first place. I suggest you take another look at it......maybe with your glasses on this time.
NoSaint Posted November 29, 2013 Author Posted November 29, 2013 What he should have done was continued to run straight and not try to get out of the way. If he runs into Tomlin the play looks much worse and almost a gaurantee that the Refs have to call something if he is touched by the coach on the field before the Steelers defender touches him. generally, sure, but i dont think jones was coached up for what to do if a coach obstructs him on the field. as is, it should have been essentially a guaranteed call anyway. i normally will defend the refs on borderline calls, and respect that its a terribly hard job, and half the time we just dont get the finer points of the rules when we are upset.... but this shouldve been a gimme and i wouldnt be surprised if the ref is punished for his part. it would be deserved.
CardinalScotts Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 It should have been thrown, forced player to lean a little inside and slow down. More poor work from the officials - get in line. Nothing will be done because nothing is ever done.
NoSaint Posted November 29, 2013 Author Posted November 29, 2013 It should have been thrown, forced player to lean a little inside and slow down. More poor work from the officials - get in line. Nothing will be done because nothing is ever done. rumor is this official may be demoted. additionally, things are done, memos just normally arent sent to you or i.
Simon Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 Surprised nobody's brought up Bill Cowher's similar moment vs the Jags on a blocked FG return for TD. Even more surprised that when I went to find video of it for a nostalgic chuckle, that I could not find anything. Totally stunned that I can't find so much as even a picture of it. Is the NFL that pathetic that they've made a concerted effort to keep that bit of video of the interwebs?
4merper4mer Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 Is the NFL that pathetic that they've made a concerted effort to keep that bit of video of the interwebs? Probably. They burned the Pats tapes after all didn't they?
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 I think it was unintentional. Tomlin would have to be a psychic to stand exactly where he was. It was right at the point where the return guy had to turn in slightly and where the defender had the only chance at him. To think that Tomlin planned that so perfectly is hard to imagine. Like buftex said, I think it should have been a penalty. But I don't believe Tomlin was intentionally trying to cheat.
Mr. WEO Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 Jets got flagged for far less a few weeks ago.
apuszczalowski Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 generally, sure, but i dont think jones was coached up for what to do if a coach obstructs him on the field. as is, it should have been essentially a guaranteed call anyway. i normally will defend the refs on borderline calls, and respect that its a terribly hard job, and half the time we just dont get the finer points of the rules when we are upset.... but this shouldve been a gimme and i wouldnt be surprised if the ref is punished for his part. it would be deserved. Guaranteed penalty, sure, I won't argue that if it was intentional or not.Guaranteed TD, I won't agree with. As I said above, I could be in the endzone defending a guy and instead of playing the ball that I know I won't be able to defend, i can do something to interfere with the WR and only get a Pass Interference call that would not result in a TD. I'm still cheating by breaking a rule to make sure a TD is not scored. The refs definitly screwed up by not calling a penalty on the Steelers in this case, but it was no guarantee that it was a TD, and thats not giving the Steelers the Benefit of the Doubt
mannc Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 (edited) Guaranteed penalty, sure, I won't argue that if it was intentional or not. Guaranteed TD, I won't agree with. As I said above, I could be in the endzone defending a guy and instead of playing the ball that I know I won't be able to defend, i can do something to interfere with the WR and only get a Pass Interference call that would not result in a TD. I'm still cheating by breaking a rule to make sure a TD is not scored. The refs definitly screwed up by not calling a penalty on the Steelers in this case, but it was no guarantee that it was a TD, and thats not giving the Steelers the Benefit of the Doubt The point I and others have made is that a coach coming onto the field to alter a play is totally different from a player committing PI in the endzone. The guy committing PI in the endzone is not a cheater, he's a guy who was in poor position and got penalized. If you can't see the difference between the two situations, there's really not much talk about, I guess. I'm confident that the NFL is going to come down much harder on Tomlin than it would a guy who is penalized for PI. Edited November 29, 2013 by mannc
Mr. WEO Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 The guy never broke stride. He altered his straight line run by maybe 2 feet to the right (the width of the side line hash) before the defender was on him. No way he would have scored.
NoSaint Posted November 29, 2013 Author Posted November 29, 2013 (edited) Guaranteed penalty, sure, I won't argue that if it was intentional or not. Guaranteed TD, I won't agree with. As I said above, I could be in the endzone defending a guy and instead of playing the ball that I know I won't be able to defend, i can do something to interfere with the WR and only get a Pass Interference call that would not result in a TD. I'm still cheating by breaking a rule to make sure a TD is not scored. The refs definitly screwed up by not calling a penalty on the Steelers in this case, but it was no guarantee that it was a TD, and thats not giving the Steelers the Benefit of the Doubt i understand it wasnt a guaranteed TD - and by letter of the rule, i wouldnt have been terribly offended by the official call if he simply tacked on 15 yards -- but i do think its a legitimate discussion to have whether or not thats the right call, or whether we think that should be the right rule. personally, i deem interference from the sideline pretty high in the scope of violations. that sideline should be a literal brightline "do not cross EVER during a play" type of boundary. i know coaches get away with bending that, but i dont particularly like that. when they do it and it effects the play, even just by a step.... i think pretty high on my list, behind only a handful of other possible violations. as someone said upthread, theres a line between playing the game which sometimes includes things like taking a PI desperately trying to make a football play, and the integrity of the sport which is not entering the field of play if you arent one of the players. to have a head coach who should be held to the absolute highest standards violate that.... its starts to get easy for me to say that in my opinion if someone enters the field ahead of a player with no other defenders between him and the endzone that i would be ok with a whistle blown and a TD awarded. no need to look at who the ball carrier was, if the people behind him run faster 40s, how many steps he had on him, or anything else. runner with no other defender ahead of him obstructed by a sideline staff member - done. TD awarded and that staff member ejected, even if its just a toe across the line and its a total accident. The guy never broke stride. He altered his straight line run by maybe 2 feet to the right (the width of the side line hash) before the defender was on him. No way he would have scored. i think its closer than you think. if not for tomlin that tackle goes from a full on tackle to a finger tip grab that isnt 100%. if it cost JJ even inches of forward progress, or a tiny bit of balance.... you can see JJ pushing to get his momentum away from tomlin the last 10 yards. at full steam ahead in a straight line, turning both slowed his forward progress and brought him closer to the defender. i wont say its an automatic td but i will say it wouldve forced the defender to make a harder play. cortez allen is only a 4.5 40 guy. Edited November 29, 2013 by NoSaint
Buffalo Barbarian Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 I suggest you take another look at it......maybe with your glasses on this time. Yea, I can see it now, kinda half foot, still busch league
mannc Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 (edited) Another thing I just noticed looking at the replay posted by No Saint: Tomlin is looking right at Jones as Jones is tearing down the sideline. As Jones get near him, Tomlin actually puts his right foot into the field of play, as if to trip Jones, then pulls it back just as Jones reaches him. It looks to me like Tomlin was going to try to trip Jones and thought better of it at the last instant, or Tomlin wanted Jones to think he was going to try to trip him. Edited November 29, 2013 by mannc
Mr. WEO Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 i understand it wasnt a guaranteed TD - and by letter of the rule, i wouldnt have been terribly offended by the official call if he simply tacked on 15 yards -- but i do think its a legitimate discussion to have whether or not thats the right call, or whether we think that should be the right rule. personally, i deem interference from the sideline pretty high in the scope of violations. that sideline should be a literal brightline "do not cross EVER during a play" type of boundary. i know coaches get away with bending that, but i dont particularly like that. when they do it and it effects the play, even just by a step.... i think pretty high on my list, behind only a handful of other possible violations. as someone said upthread, theres a line between playing the game which sometimes includes things like taking a PI desperately trying to make a football play, and the integrity of the sport which is not entering the field of play if you arent one of the players. to have a head coach who should be held to the absolute highest standards violate that.... its starts to get easy for me to say that in my opinion if someone enters the field ahead of a player with no other defenders between him and the endzone that i would be ok with a whistle blown and a TD awarded. no need to look at who the ball carrier was, if the people behind him run faster 40s, how many steps he had on him, or anything else. runner with no other defender ahead of him obstructed by a sideline staff member - done. TD awarded and that staff member ejected, even if its just a toe across the line and its a total accident. i think its closer than you think. if not for tomlin that tackle goes from a full on tackle to a finger tip grab that isnt 100%. if it cost JJ even inches of forward progress, or a tiny bit of balance.... you can see JJ pushing to get his momentum away from tomlin the last 10 yards. at full steam ahead in a straight line, turning both slowed his forward progress and brought him closer to the defender. i wont say its an automatic td but i will say it wouldve forced the defender to make a harder play. cortez allen is only a 4.5 40 guy. He alters his direction in only 3 strides--10 feet. Look at the overhead view, he is going flat out all the way and he barely changes direction. The defender had an angle on him and he had pinned to the sideline.
NoSaint Posted November 29, 2013 Author Posted November 29, 2013 (edited) He alters his direction in only 3 strides--10 feet. Look at the overhead view, he is going flat out all the way and he barely changes direction. The defender had an angle on him and he had pinned to the sideline. even with said angle AND the change of direction, the defender barely gets his hand over the shoulder. if you pull that hand back 2-3 inches to the top of the shoulder, instead of hooking over the top to the front... well... weve seen guys go down, weve seen guys run through it. im not arguing he makes it, simply that i dont think its 100% positive the defender actually gets him. sure the defender gets a hand on him but i dont think itd be near as firm a hand. the angle was gone and he was going to have to run him down in a straight foot race if he didnt get him right at that juncture too. Edited November 29, 2013 by NoSaint
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