Controlling the LOS

[TakeYouToTasker]

Still, 25 scholarships versus 7 draft picks?

 

Only the first 3 rounds of a draft can be considered premium picks as opposed to scholarshipped players who are all in the upper tier of recruits.

 

It's still easier to accumulate O-line talent in college than it is in the pros, IMO.

 

 

 

Arguably.

 

Anytime a quarterback gets hurt it can theoretically be blamed on the O-line I suppose.

 

I know on the play on which he was injured, he had flushed the pocket and was running upfield. It seems he was tackled high.

 

Arguably also, Rodgers should have slid and didn't protect himself well enough.

 

However I will agree that all things being equal a bad O-line leaves the QB more vulnerable to injury.

 

But I would still take Gronk over Mankins on the present-day Bills, even if they were the same age.

You're entired to that opinion.

 

I, however, am more of a "build the walls first, then the castle" kind of guy.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I think we are thinking pretty much the same. I find it kind of funny how fans start salivating over sexy picks like pass catching tight ends. Then we like to go and find all kinds of statistics to back up our prognostications. There isn't anything sexy about OT. Statistics don't seem to do a very good job of determining how good an OT is. So fans like to do things like quote Bill Parcels who says he can find any old fat guy to plug a hole.

 

People love to see all of the flashy plays that skill players do on a regular basis in the NFL. And the offensive lineman just gets no respect even if he is the guy that protects the QB or springs a RB for a big gain. No matter how many flashy pieces you have if you don't build a foundation(IT BEGINS AT THE LINES) you aren't going anywhere.

 

As I posted upthread, it's not a debate about style versus substance as far as I'm concerned although I understand how that might come into play in some people's opinions.

 

If we set aside the style versus substance discussion, it becomes a discussion about value and impact.

 

Thus the Gronk vs Mankins question.

 

Here's another question.

 

Would you be better off with 5 All Pro O-linemen and terrible QB or an All Pro QB and 5 terrible O-linemen?

 

Ultimately this is really a philosophical question with no right answer which is why I like the Mankins vs Gronk on the Bills question better.

 

It really has to be judged on a team-by-team basis.

 

Speaking to this discussion in general terms becomes too vague.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

This past week, I have been involved with others here in discussions about the importance of controlling the line of scrimmage and drafting a quality LG early next may. Some agree that a LG should be a priority pick. Others disagree saying the concept of controlling the LOS is over rated.

 

It may be informative to look at the way Nick Saban builds his teams at the University of Alabama. As you know, Saban led Alabama to three national championships in 2009, 2011, and 2012.

 

During this period of time a number of Alabama offensive linemen have been selected early in the NFL draft indicating they were important to the success of those championship teams. James Carpenter was selected in the first rd. by Seattle in 2009. Chance Warmack and J.D. Fluker went in the first round at picks 10 and 11 this past draft.

 

This year Alabama opened it's season with a contest vs. Virginia Tech. The game was close in the first half and TV commentations remarked about how good the Hokie defensive line looked against Alamama's offensive line. Running off the field after the first half, Saban was asked what his team needed to do in the second half. Saban sternly replied. "get comtrol of the Line of Scrimmage". His team did just that in the 2nd. half and won the game 35 - 10. Once again, Saban's team is ranked #1 and the favorite for another championship. LT Cyrus Kouandijo, a junior, is considred a first round pick should he declare. His brother Arie a junior LG and Anthony Steen a senior RG are also condidered NFL quality players.

 

What is Saban doing to insure future success? Looking at his 2014 high school recruits, Saban has 2 five star and 14 four star recruits among a total of 22 committed high school players. One of the two five star recruits is offensive lineman Cameron Rolinson, 6'6", 320. Four of his 14 4 star recruits are offensive linemen Jushua Cashier, 6'1", 300, J.C. Hassanauer, 6'3", 295, Ross Pierschbacher, 6'4", 295, and Dominick Jackson, 6'7", 312. To put it another way, 31% of his 2014 5 and 4 star recruits are offensive linemen. This is how a championship coach builds championship teams. Saban puts the highest priority on getting top quality offensive linemen.

 

I agree that building the trenches has been and always will be the foundation of a team but I wouldn't take a Guard first round unless he is so awesome that it is a no- brainer. There is too much talent at the skill positions in the first sometimes second round to pass up when you can get a good guard in the second or latter. After we screwed up by not signing Levitre I thought for sure we would draft a guard, like Brian Winters who is doing well for the Jets, but no we have perrenial backups like Collin Brown to do the job .

[Rockinon]

As I posted upthread, it's not a debate about style versus substance as far as I'm concerned although I understand how that might come into play in some people's opinions.

 

If we set aside the style versus substance discussion, it becomes a discussion about value and impact.

 

Thus the Gronk vs Mankins question.

 

Here's another question.

 

Would you be better off with 5 All Pro O-linemen and terrible QB or an All Pro QB and 5 terrible O-linemen?

 

Ultimately this is really a philosophical question with no right answer which is why I like the Mankins vs Gronk on the Bills question better.

 

It really has to be judged on a team-by-team basis.

 

Speaking to this discussion in general terms becomes too vague.

I think we have our QB all ready. At least I hope so. We'll see down this final stretch of the season. The Mankins vs Gronk is a good observation but I also think you have to look more closely at the characteristics of this team. When you have someone as explosive as CJ on your team, you have to find a way to get him going. Getting tackled within the same second that he gets the hand off is a problem. Keeping your QB upright is important too, especially a rookie who is still learning to go through his progressions. TE is nice and all....he can also stay in and block so that is a nice double-edged blade. I just think that an OT is grossly underestimated and especially in our case.

 

I also think right tackle can be improved. It's my opinion that our line has managed hold up fairly well because every other player on the line is exceptional. Guys like Cordy Glenn and Eric Wood are helping to disguise some deficiencies. Our backs and TEs also help to disguise some problems by blocking. We could get a TE, but what good will it be if he has to stay in and back up the OL when with solid OL play, he could then be another weapon out of the backfield. Not saying TE is not important. Just that a good offensive guard can help the skill positions....even the TE.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Rockinon

[San-O]

I agree that building the trenches has been and always will be the foundation of a team but I wouldn't take a Guard first round unless he is so awesome that it is a no- brainer. There is too much talent at the skill positions in the first sometimes second round to pass up when you can get a good guard in the second or latter. After we screwed up by not signing Levitre I thought for sure we would draft a guard, like Brian Winters who is doing well for the Jets, but no we have perrenial backups like Collin Brown to do the job .

 

Someone on the Bills oragnization, on that staff, has been selecting horrible FA O linemen for ever. I would love to see thet list of FA O linemen signed by the Bills

over the past decade or so. I think that list would be shocking, seriously.

 

I'm not sure where to find that information exactly.

[TakeYouToTasker]

Someone on the Bills oragnization, on that staff, has been selecting horrible FA O linemen for ever. I would love to see thet list of FA O linemen signed by the Bills

over the past decade or so. I think that list would be shocking, seriously.

 

I'm not sure where to find that information exactly.

Terrible signings like Pears and Urbik?

[Cheddar's Dad]

 

 

Here's another question.

 

Would you be better off with 5 All Pro O-linemen and terrible QB or an All Pro QB and 5 terrible O-linemen?

 

 

Easy question. The 5 quality linemen make the qb look better than he is and that applies to backs as well. With 5 terrible linemen you have no all pro QB. What you have is a series of terrified QBs being carted off the field.

[San-O]

Terrible signings like Pears and Urbik?

 

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/OL

 

Buffalo is in the bottom 3rd of the NFL in O-line grading, and as many many already know, run up the middle far to predictably and often.

 

They run to R end the least in the league, and that just happens to be where Pears is.

 

Urbik is OK.

[Dibs]

Who thinks controlling the LoS isn't important? Of course it is. Now if you're saying you target O and DL before every other position just to accomplish this then you'll get some disagreement but I don't know of any football fan who doesn't think it's important.

Those were my thoughts exactly!

 

As another poster stated, no one doubts the importance of a good OL. However, drafting an OL in the first round is risky.....

Every position is risky in the first round(and onwards). Looking at the success rates however you will find that the OL in general have a relatively high success rate compared to most positions......with OG being extremely high.

[thewildrabbit]

The Buffalo Bills won TWO AFL championships in 1964 & 1965 with some great players on that 64 & 65 O line. LT Stew Barber, LG Billy Shaw, C Dave Behrman, RG Al Bemiller, RT Dick Hudson.

 

The Buffalo Bills went to four superbowls in 1990, 91, 92, 93. Also with some great players on the O line. LT Will Wolford, LG Jim Ritcher, C Kent Hull, RG John H Davis, RT Howard Ballard. RG Glenn Parker replaced John H Davis in 1992 because Davis only played in 9 games, and he was back for 1993.

 

What strikes me about those winning years is that the Bills built solid O lines that were able to control the LoS with both the running and passing attacks. They basically also had the very same players each year of those 4 years during that 90's run.

 

Also look at the careers of Will Wolford 13 years, Jim Ritcher 16 years, Kent Hull 11 years.

 

 

If you look at the Buffalo Bills for most the decade of the 2000's they basically neglected the O line by various regimes, and Instead they tried to band-aid the situation. * new player or position

 

2000-8 picks drafted zero for the O line. Starters, LT John Fina, LG Ruben Brown, C Jerry Ostroski, RG Jamie Nails, RT Marcus Spriggs- HC Wade Phillips. (20 offense)

2001-12 picks, drafted T Jonas Jennings 2nd, 3 round pick & 5th round G Marques Sullivan. Starters, LT John Fina, LG Ruben Brown, C Bill Conaty*, RG Corey Husley*, RT Jonas Jennings*. HC Gregg Williams.(27 offense)

2002-10 picks, drafted T Mike D Williams #4 overall in the first round, 7th round Mike Pucillo. Starters, LT Jonas Jennings, LG Ruben Brown, C Trey Teague*, RG Marques Sullivan*, RT Mike D Williams*- HC Gregg Williams.(11 offense) Bledsoe.

2003-8 picks, drafted T Ben Sobieski 5th round. LT Jonas Jennings, LG Ruben Brown, C Trey Teague, RG Mike Pucillo*, RT Mike D Williams. HC Gregg Williams. (30 offense)

2004-6 picks, drafted T Dylan McFarland 7th round.Starters, LT Jonas Jennings, LG Ross Tucker*, C Trey Teague, RG Chris Villarrial*, RT Mike D Williams- HC Mike Mularkey. (#7 offense) Bledsoe (9-7)

2005- 6 draft picks, drafted 4th round C Duke Preston, 6th round G Justin Geisinger.Starters, Starters, LT Mike Gandy*, LG Bennie Anderson*, C Trey Teague, RG Chris Villarrial, RT Jason Peters* .HC Mike Mularkey.(#24 offense)

2006-9 draft picks, drafted 5th round T Brad Butler, 7th round T Terrence Pennington, 7th round G Aaron Merz. Starters, LT Jason Peters*, LG Mike Gandy, C Melvin Fowler*, RG Chris Villarrial, RT, Terrance Pennington. HC Dick Jauron. (23 offense)

2007-7 draft picks, drafted zero. Starters, LT Jason Peters, LG Derrick Dockery*, C Melvin Fowler, RG Brad Butler*, RT Langston Walker*. HC Dick Jauron. (#30 offense)

2008-10 draft picks, drafted 7th round T Demetress Bell. Starters, Jason Peters, Derrick Dockery, C Duke Preston*, RG Brad Butler,RT Langston Walker. HC Dick Jauron. (#23 offense)

2009-8 draft picks, drafted 2nd #1 pick (28th) C Eric Wood, 2nd #2 (51) G Andy Levitre. Starters, LT Demetress Bell*, RG Andy Levitre*, C Geoff Hangartner*, RG Eric Wood*, RT Kirk Chambers*. HC Dick Jauron. (#28 offense)

2010-9 draft picks, drafted 5th round T Ed Wang, 7th round T Kyle Calloway. Starters, LT Demetress Bell, LG Andy Levitre, C Geoff Hangartner, RG Eric Wood, RT Mansfield Wrotto* (RT Cornell Green) . HC Chan Gailey (#28 offense)

2011-9 draft picks, drafted 4th round T Chris Hairston, starters, LT Chris Hairston*, LG Andy Levitre, C Eric Wood*, RG Kraig Urbik*, RT Erik Pears*. HC Chan Gailey (14 offense)

2012-9 draft picks, drafted 2nd round T Cordy Glenn, 5th round T Zerbie Sanders, 6th round G Mark Asper, Starters, Cordy Glenn*, LG Andy Levitre, C Eric Wood, RG Kraig Urbik, RT Eric Pears. HC Chan Gailey (21 offense)

2013 8 draft picks zero drafted. Starters, LT Cordy Glenn, LG Colin Brown*/ Doug Legursky, C Eric Wood, RG Kraig Urbik, RT Eric Pears. HC Doug Marrone. (22 offense)

 

There have been so many injuries to the O line players its almost impossible to track each and every player that started a game from 2000-2013. All the changes made almost every year didn't allow much in the way of the proverbial "continuity" needed for the success of that line.

 

While it appears that the Bills drafted enough linemen. The reality is that anything drafted after the 3rd round was usually a wasted pick, and didn't stay a starter or even stay with the team very long. So if you look at only those players, 5 were drafted out of 46 drafted in the first 3 rounds. Run that thru the new analytic dept.

 

 

Anyway, Its obvious to me that when the Bills drafted early for the O line they usually had great success, and "IF" they had kept LG Andy Levitre they not only could have possibly won more games this year, had better play in the run game. They would have only needed to upgrade 2 positions instead of 3.

 

I can see why the Bills didn't retain Levitre, what I can't understand is why they didn't see that neither starting LG Colin Brown or his backup Sam Young being as bad as they were as they do practice against their own D line, one of the NFL's very best. Now the Bills are making a "long-shot" run at the playoffs and should any of the current starters go down the season would most likely be over that quickly.

 

 

 

The Bills also only drafted 4 QB's in that entire timeline, two 1st rounders (EJ), and one of those the 2nd 1st round pick (JP). One 3rd rounder (TE), one 7th rounder. 3 of 46 This team spent more resources on the defense, CB's, and look what they accomplished by doing that.

 

2000 DE-DB-LB

2001 DB-DE-RB-DT-T

2002 T-WR-DE-DB

2003 RB-DE-LB

2004 WR-QB-DT

2005 WR-TE

2006 DB-DT-DB

2007 RB-LB-QB

2008 DB-WR-DE

2009 DE-C-DB-G

2010 RB-DT-DE

2011 DT-DB-LB

2012 CB-T-WR

2013 QB-WR-LB-WR

Edited November 29, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[Rockinon]

Nice job Fear.

[thewildrabbit]

Nice job Fear.

Thanks.

 

 

If the Bills need a better blocking TE, well then just move a tackle out and have him block. I'm certain he would be a better road grader at 300+ lbs then a 260 lb player.

 

What many fans are clamoring / suggesting to do is to find that elusive needle in 1000 haystacks, TE Rob Gronkowski, or perhaps TE Jimmy Graham. Exactly how many of them are currently in the league?

 

Gronk

Graham...in a class by themselves

 

Jason Whitten

Vernon Davis

Antoino Gates

Tony Gonzalaz

Julius Thomas

Greg Olsen

Jorden Cameron

 

Now, go thru the list of the three first rounders from 2000-2013 and see how many TE's the Bills drafted... one in 2005, TE Kevin Everett. The Bills would need to start drafting TE's in order to find a top one

 

Like I've stated in other posts, I'm not so sure that a Gronk or Graham would even see the ball that often in Hackett's offense.

[Big Turk]

The game begins and ends in the trenches. It doesn't matter who your QB is if he's on his back, or worse yet, knocked out of the game with an injury.

 

Case-in-point, the Pittsburgh Steelers. Early in the year, their line was playinmg terribly. Runners had no lanes, and Ben had no time to make his reads, allow plays to develop, or move in the pocket.

 

Nonsense, Pittsburgh and Green Bay's offensive lines have been bad for years, even when they were winning super bowls they were still among the most sacked QBs in the NFL. This isn't the 70's or 80's football simply doesn't work like that anymore...

 

This is a QB driven league now, if you expect to win Super Bowls, unless you have a team of all-pro's and pro bowl players at virtually every other position ala the Baltimore Ravens with Trent Dilfer, you better have an elite QB who can make defenses pay...

 

Elite QBs can cover up a serious lack of talent at other positions, but it takes elite talent at lots of other positions to cover up for lack of an elite QB...

 

Look no further than the pathetic performance of Green Bay yesterday against Detroit without Rodgers...75 yards of total offense until a last meaningless drive pushed them over 140 yards for the game...

Edited November 29, 2013 by matter2003

[Rockinon]

Nonsense, Pittsburgh and Green Bay's offensive lines have been bad for years, even when they were winning super bowls they were still among the most sacked QBs in the NFL. This isn't the 70's or 80's football simply doesn't work like that anymore...

 

This is a QB driven league now, if you expect to win Super Bowls, unless you have a team of all-pro's and pro bowl players at virtually every other position ala the Baltimore Ravens with Trent Dilfer, you better have an elite QB who can make defenses pay...

 

Elite QBs can cover up a serious lack of talent at other positions, but it takes elite talent at lots of other positions to cover up for lack of an elite QB...

 

Look no further than the pathetic performance of Green Bay yesterday against Detroit without Rodgers...75 yards of total offense until a last meaningless drive pushed them over 140 yards for the game...

Not really nonsense when looking at our team. Where do you see a QB the caliber of Rodgers on our roster?

[stony]

Not really nonsense when looking at our team. Where do you see a QB the caliber of Rodgers on our roster?

 

So if you have a good line, then you don't need a good QB? Where are all these crappy QBs winning SuperBowls? Our OL is more than adequate to win the big one.

[Rockinon]

Thanks.

 

 

If the Bills need a better blocking TE, well then just move a tackle out and have him block. I'm certain he would be a better road grader at 300+ lbs then a 260 lb player.

 

What many fans are clamoring / suggesting to do is to find that elusive needle in 1000 haystacks, TE Rob Gronkowski, or perhaps TE Jimmy Graham. Exactly how many of them are currently in the league?

 

Gronk

Graham...in a class by themselves

 

Jason Whitten

Vernon Davis

Antoino Gates

Tony Gonzalaz

Julius Thomas

Greg Olsen

Jorden Cameron

 

Now, go thru the list of the three first rounders from 2000-2013 and see how many TE's the Bills drafted... one in 2005, TE Kevin Everett. The Bills would need to start drafting TE's in order to find a top one

 

Like I've stated in other posts, I'm not so sure that a Gronk or Graham would even see the ball that often in Hackett's offense.

I think Hackett wouldn't mind incorporating more pass plays for a TE. I think the number of skill player we all ready have kind of changes things. I think this team really does have a lot of talent at the skill positions, but there has been such inconsistency at QB. It'll be fun to see if EJ can turn things around. Even though I would prefer offensive line depth over TE, it would be great to see a TE that is good at both blocking and catching. You are right though. that guy won't be easy.

 

So if you have a good line, then you don't need a good QB? Where are all these crappy QBs winning SuperBowls? Our OL is more than adequate to win the big one.

Where did I say we don't need a good QB? I don't remember that at all. And our OL is a long way from being superbowl caliber. We don't have Brady, Brees or Rogers on this team to carry us. Edited November 29, 2013 by Rockinon

[San Jose Bills Fan]

So if you have a good line, then you don't need a good QB? Where are all these crappy QBs winning SuperBowls?

 

Our OL is more than adequate to win the big one.

 

As has been stated previously and elsewhere, the biggest factor in limiting the success of the Bills offense is the quarterback, not the offensive line.

 

As has been stated previously and elsewhere, worse O-lines than ours have won the Super Bowl.

 

Replace Doug Legursky with Logan Mankins and this team wins 1-2 more games.

 

Replace Scott Chandler with Gronk and this team wins 3-4 more games.

 

Replace any of our quarterbacks with Brady/Manning/Rodgers/Brees and this team wins 5-6 more games.

 

Everyone would like to see the O-line upgraded at a few spots.

 

The question as suggested by the OP is to what degree you invest high draft picks or big free agent contracts to do so.

 

If the Bills need a better blocking TE, well then just move a tackle out and have him block. I'm certain he would be a better road grader at 300+ lbs then a 260 lb player.

 

What many fans are clamoring / suggesting to do is to find that elusive needle in 1000 haystacks, TE Rob Gronkowski, or perhaps TE Jimmy Graham. Exactly how many of them are currently in the league?

 

Gronk

Graham...in a class by themselves

 

Jason Whitten

Vernon Davis

Antoino Gates

Tony Gonzalaz

Julius Thomas

Greg Olsen

Jorden Cameron

 

Now, go thru the list of the three first rounders from 2000-2013 and see how many TE's the Bills drafted... one in 2005, TE Kevin Everett. The Bills would need to start drafting TE's in order to find a top one

 

Like I've stated in other posts, I'm not so sure that a Gronk or Graham would even see the ball that often in Hackett's offense.

 

To your first suggestion, the Bills like other teams occasionally use an O-linemen as an extra blocking tight end.

 

On obvious run downs.

 

I know you understand that a truly excellent tight end poses problems for the exact reason that the defense isn't tipped off as to whether the playcall is a run or a pass.

 

A top tight end is no more elusive than a top guard. To your lengthy list you can also add Julius Thomas and Jordan Reed as well as Kyle Rudolph to name a few.

 

"Exactly how many difference making guards are there currently in the league?"

 

Finally your last suggestion (that even if the Bills had a top tight end you're not sure that the player would be utilized) is absurd.

 

On what grounds would you think that this team would add an offensive skill position player at a position of need and not try to use him?

[thewildrabbit]

So if you have a good line, then you don't need a good QB? Where are all these crappy QBs winning SuperBowls? Our OL is more than adequate to win the big one.

 

Probably the same reasoning that kept this team from drafting more O lineman the last 13 years, and not even sniffing a winning season... save one 9-7 season out of 13.

 

I think Hackett wouldn't mind incorporating more pass plays for a TE. I think the number of skill player we all ready have kind of changes things. I think this team really does have a lot of talent at the skill positions, but there has been such inconsistency at QB. It'll be fun to see if EJ can turn things around. Even though I would prefer offensive line depth over TE, it would be great to see a TE that is good at both blocking and catching. You are right though. that guy won't be easy. And our OL is a long way from being superbowl caliber.

Agree with the bolded

 

The current Bills TE is not all that bad as they just don't throw to him enough IMO. I think they prefer to keep him in to block on most pass plays, and he is already set to surpass his last few years of receptions. Just not as many TD's. With 5 games to go Scott Chandler already has 37 receptions, 60 targets put him right behind Stevie Johnson 41 receptions, 78 targets. Chandler only had 43 receptions all of last season.

 

The Bills have some good WR's, and all are healthy now, if EJ is given time in the pocket he should rip teams apart in the pass game. But, the Bills cannot always count on EJ playing great like he did against the Jets, and carrying the offense all by himself. The Bills need that run game to work every game, and against every opponent to help that rookie QB.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

The current Bills TE is not all that bad as they just don't throw to him enough IMO. I think they prefer to keep him in to block on most pass plays, and he is already set to surpass his last few years of receptions. Just not as many TD's. With 5 games to go Scott Chandler already has 37 receptions, 60 targets put him right behind Stevie Johnson 41 receptions, 78 targets. Chandler only had 43 receptions all of last season.

 

The Bills have some good WR's, and all are healthy now, if EJ is given time in the pocket he should rip teams apart in the pass game. But, the Bills cannot always count on EJ playing great like he did against the Jets, and carrying the offense all by himself. The Bills need that run game to work every game, and against every opponent to help that rookie QB.

 

Chandler is a horrible blocker. He's a detriment to the running game that you strongly desire the Bills to have.

 

Lee Smith is a horrible receiver. When he's in the game the other team knows that the Bills are probably gonna try to run the ball.

[frogger]

here is what Buffalo should look to do, sign these two free agents... Zack Strief RT and LG Matt Slauson, both are massive upgrades at their positions and wouldn't empty out the bank. Then Buffalo can address upgrades at LB and TE.