BigBuff423 Posted November 27, 2013 Posted November 27, 2013 Fair enough, but generally the TEs who are going to be stars come out pretty strong - because they get open and catch the ball, and function as that safety valve for the QB. Gragg hasn't really shown much capacity for any of this during crunch time - yet. The other side of the coin says that there is a reason Gragg was a 7th rounder, and you can only expect so much from those picks. That we have one that could be characterized at LEAST as a very good #2 in SJ13 is good fortune enough. This is not directed at you personally, but I feel like Groundhog Day...having this same discussion all over again. But in all due respect, I disagree with the statement that "TEs who are going to be stars come out pretty strong". Because just 2 THIS year didn't start that way. Julius Thomas and Jordan Cameron were drafted in the 4th round in 2011 and it took them 2 years to develop before we asked, "Who ARE these guys?!" Witten and Graham were both 3rd round picks, Gronk was a 2nd but Hernandez was a 4th, Antonio Gates was a 3rd rounder...this list is signficantly longer of TEs taken in the 3rd and 4th round that turn out to be very good TEs if not spectacular. 1st round TEs are statistically a disadvantage. Gonzalez - who was drafted in a different era, and Vernon Davis - who people forget was considered a bust until Harbaugh turned that team around and has had a lot to do with his development, are two 1st rounders playing as expected. However Pettigrew still hasn't, Gresham has not, and Eifert has not "yet" but he's a rookie and that's kind of the point, he will take time to develop as well...most NFL positions do and investing a 1st round pick in a TE is a waste of a selection when history tells us that just as good, if not better, TEs are to be found a few rounds later. And, most of the TEs who end up being pheonmenal at their position, take a year or two to develop into such great receivers, route runners, and serviceable blockers. It takes time...no TE we draft next year will likely help this team a great deal, but a TE the BILLS draft next year, could prove to be very valuable as a part of the re-building process if the selection is wise and timely based upon draft position.
RyanC883 Posted November 27, 2013 Posted November 27, 2013 This is not directed at you personally, but I feel like Groundhog Day...having this same discussion all over again. But in all due respect, I disagree with the statement that "TEs who are going to be stars come out pretty strong". Because just 2 THIS year didn't start that way. Julius Thomas and Jordan Cameron were drafted in the 4th round in 2011 and it took them 2 years to develop before we asked, "Who ARE these guys?!" Witten and Graham were both 3rd round picks, Gronk was a 2nd but Hernandez was a 4th, Antonio Gates was a 3rd rounder...this list is signficantly longer of TEs taken in the 3rd and 4th round that turn out to be very good TEs if not spectacular. 1st round TEs are statistically a disadvantage. Gonzalez - who was drafted in a different era, and Vernon Davis - who people forget was considered a bust until Harbaugh turned that team around and has had a lot to do with his development, are two 1st rounders playing as expected. However Pettigrew still hasn't, Gresham has not, and Eifert has not "yet" but he's a rookie and that's kind of the point, he will take time to develop as well...most NFL positions do and investing a 1st round pick in a TE is a waste of a selection when history tells us that just as good, if not better, TEs are to be found a few rounds later. And, most of the TEs who end up being pheonmenal at their position, take a year or two to develop into such great receivers, route runners, and serviceable blockers. It takes time...no TE we draft next year will likely help this team a great deal, but a TE the BILLS draft next year, could prove to be very valuable as a part of the re-building process if the selection is wise and timely based upon draft position. This is a great point. I think the Bills need to draft Mack or the best LB available in the First Round, a Guard or Aaron Donald from Pitt in the Second round, and a TE in the Third. If we land Mack and Donald, our D will be even more stout. While we don't need a DT, if Donald is there, we should take him. k. Williams won't play forever, and Donald can rotate in to keep the DT's fresh.
RuntheDamnBall Posted November 27, 2013 Posted November 27, 2013 This is not directed at you personally, but I feel like Groundhog Day...having this same discussion all over again. But in all due respect, I disagree with the statement that "TEs who are going to be stars come out pretty strong". Because just 2 THIS year didn't start that way. Julius Thomas and Jordan Cameron were drafted in the 4th round in 2011 and it took them 2 years to develop before we asked, "Who ARE these guys?!" Witten and Graham were both 3rd round picks, Gronk was a 2nd but Hernandez was a 4th, Antonio Gates was a 3rd rounder...this list is signficantly longer of TEs taken in the 3rd and 4th round that turn out to be very good TEs if not spectacular. 1st round TEs are statistically a disadvantage. Gonzalez - who was drafted in a different era, and Vernon Davis - who people forget was considered a bust until Harbaugh turned that team around and has had a lot to do with his development, are two 1st rounders playing as expected. However Pettigrew still hasn't, Gresham has not, and Eifert has not "yet" but he's a rookie and that's kind of the point, he will take time to develop as well...most NFL positions do and investing a 1st round pick in a TE is a waste of a selection when history tells us that just as good, if not better, TEs are to be found a few rounds later. And, most of the TEs who end up being pheonmenal at their position, take a year or two to develop into such great receivers, route runners, and serviceable blockers. It takes time...no TE we draft next year will likely help this team a great deal, but a TE the BILLS draft next year, could prove to be very valuable as a part of the re-building process if the selection is wise and timely based upon draft position. I don't take issue with that. I just think that it's highly unlikely in this environment, where TEs have become so integral to good offenses, that we're going to find a guy in the 3rd or 4th. For every Cameron or Thomas there are a dozen Tim Euhus or Derek Fines. Unless there are some concerns, of course. Now, is there a guy whose concerns can be dealt with (he can be coached up, his inexperience is outweighed by his talent, etc etc). Not to be lost on anyone: Cameron is an interesting case -- but Thomas, Gronk, Graham all have elite QBs throwing to them. If we want an elite TE, I wouldn't expect him to last to the third, even though it's a possibility. With TEs, talent deployed well becomes hard to stop. The question, when they aren't performing, becomes - is it the talent, or is it the scheme? I would like to see the TEs used more in our passing game, but I don't think we've had the kind of talented TE that I'm looking for. As for the other notes, when I say they "come on early," I look at a season like Graham's first, where he can be depended on for 11+ YPC, and 5 TDs. Witten still had 30+ receptions in his first year. So did Pettigrew. Gragg hasn't come anywhere close, and it doesn't look like the team has trusted him enough - yet. I'd love to see more from him, don't get me wrong.
Buffalo Barbarian Posted November 27, 2013 Posted November 27, 2013 Ebron from NC, and Seffarian-Jenkins from WA are the two big names in this draft. and Amaro all sound good to me.
T master Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 OK i was reading another article on another sight that was asking about certain players future with the Bills & the player in question was Scott Chandler . During this article they had specifically asked about Scotts out put this year, saying that it has been down noticeably this year from last. That got me asking myself a couple of questions . Is Scotts low out put lower due to his injury last year & he's not back to 100% yet ? OR Is Scotts low out put due to the young & ever changing QB position this year ? Last year because of Scotts size - 6' 7" tall he was a huge presence in the red zone & on 3rd downs when we needed THE go to guy to (get er dun) & keep in mind he set or tied the record for TD's in one season for a TE (which could have been due to Metzelars which is another WHY DIDN"T WE KEEP HIM question) But So what are your thoughts about this subject & do you think Chandler will be around next year, or will he be on another team which we will face & get over his injury 100% & burn us for a couple of times a year for some game winning TD's ? I could see the Pats picking him up with the lose of Hernandez & paring him up with Gronk for another wicked TE tandem !! I think we should try to retain him (& teach our new QB how to use him) because after he (Chandler) learns this offense (and they learn how to use him) he will be a weapon then pick up another rookie TE to learn behind him while he shows what he's worth in our game ... Or develop Gragg & let Chandler walk at the end of this year while continuing to get younger while keeping the pay roll down by letting Chandler walk b/c he would probably ask or demand more than a rookie at the same position ? There you have it !!
machine gun kelly Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 You are correct he was slower with the injury when he wasn't fast last year, but has come back finally the last couple of games. For all of Fitz problems, he was good at delivering fast to Chandler in 2 seconds when it mattered. EJ will get there. We still need to not only resign him, but get another faster basketball type guy with his size and more speed as the opposing TE, We would be formiddable with our WR.
BADOLBILZ Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 OK i was reading another article on another sight that was asking about certain players future with the Bills & the player in question was Scott Chandler . During this article they had specifically asked about Scotts out put this year, saying that it has been down noticeably this year from last. That got me asking myself a couple of questions . Is Scotts low out put lower due to his injury last year & he's not back to 100% yet ? OR Is Scotts low out put due to the young & ever changing QB position this year ? Last year because of Scotts size - 6' 7" tall he was a huge presence in the red zone & on 3rd downs when we needed THE go to guy to (get er dun) & keep in mind he set or tied the record for TD's in one season for a TE (which could have been due to Metzelars which is another WHY DIDN"T WE KEEP HIM question) But So what are your thoughts about this subject & do you think Chandler will be around next year, or will he be on another team which we will face & get over his injury 100% & burn us for a couple of times a year for some game winning TD's ? I could see the Pats picking him up with the lose of Hernandez & paring him up with Gronk for another wicked TE tandem !! I think we should try to retain him (& teach our new QB how to use him) because after he (Chandler) learns this offense (and they learn how to use him) he will be a weapon then pick up another rookie TE to learn behind him while he shows what he's worth in our game ... Or develop Gragg & let Chandler walk at the end of this year while continuing to get younger while keeping the pay roll down by letting Chandler walk b/c he would probably ask or demand more than a rookie at the same position ? There you have it !! I think he is back to normal but he is not really a seam-stretching TE. He excels at horizontal routes, which were a good fit for what Gailey wanted to do. The Bills are more of a vertical offense now. A faster, more athletic tight end that could challenge the deep middle of the field would force defenses to play to play their safeties straight up instead of cheating to the outside to shut down those deep throws. That would be the logical course of action. I would like to see him back though.
jr1 Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 He had only 6 more catches last year than this year. I think he's okay given the carousel of QBs this year
Dibs Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 In his 7 games with our #1 QB(EJ) his stats are.... 23-265-1 Extrapolated over 16 games would be... 53-606-2 Catches and yards would be career highs.....TDs are down. I think perhaps, as others have stated, that the carousel of QBs this season has effected his production somewhat.
SBUffalo Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 I don't like Chandler. This offense still has a long ways to go. But most positions (QB, RB, LT, C, RG, RT, WR) have players that are either too talented or too young to replace yet. So that leaves the TE and/or LG position as spots that need to improve. The rest is just waiting to see if the youth that you have is really as good as it can be.
thebandit27 Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 I've always seen ScoChan as "passable"; not great. I look at the best offenses in the league, and I see the clear and obvious impact that these Super-TEs bring to the table, and I can't help but think that such an addition would have the greatest positive affect on this offense of any potential offseason move. I'm not saying that Amaro or ASJ will become one of these guys, but just imagine how much better this offense could be with even a top 10 TE like Jordan Reed, Dennis Pitta, or (if you really nail the pick) Vernon Davis.
machine gun kelly Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 A lot of good points. Our needs are TE, LG, ILB, CB, but not in that particular order. Value is going to determine who we take in what order. If we can trade down which we did twice with success and get these four in the first 3 rounds I firmly believe you just take the most talented guys on the board no matter what position. You can always use more lineman. I'm not of the opinion to go for another QB as EJ we hope is our future, Thad is much better than Tuel, so you go out on the market and find an older game ready guy like Hasselback (not him as locked up but someone like him). I do hope we go for a beast TE in the second round. Can you imagine a stud ILB or lock down CB in round 1 to make this defense punishing, and Chandler and thE rookie TE, along with either SJ and Woods or Goodwin. EJ would have athletic big targets (TE's)as well as excellent route runners (SJ/RW), and speed with Goodwin. Hacket could do a lot with that talent. You can always find a decent guard in the 3rd or 4th rounds.
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 (edited) This is a great point. I think the Bills need to draft Mack or the best LB available in the First Round, a Guard or Aaron Donald from Pitt in the Second round, and a TE in the Third. If we land Mack and Donald, our D will be even more stout. While we don't need a DT, if Donald is there, we should take him. k. Williams won't play forever, and Donald can rotate in to keep the DT's fresh. Is Khalil Mack a WOLB? Because we're pretty good at the Jack/Defensive Specialist role with Mario and Hughes, but if his job would be to take over Bradham I could see why. If not, I would much rather see us take a TE. Edited November 28, 2013 by Whitewalker Merriman
simpleman Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 A faster, more athletic tight end that could challenge the deep middle of the field would force defenses to play to play their safeties straight up instead of cheating to the outside to shut down those deep throws.
Kirby Jackson Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 OK i was reading another article on another sight that was asking about certain players future with the Bills & the player in question was Scott Chandler . During this article they had specifically asked about Scotts out put this year, saying that it has been down noticeably this year from last. That got me asking myself a couple of questions . Is Scotts low out put lower due to his injury last year & he's not back to 100% yet ? OR Is Scotts low out put due to the young & ever changing QB position this year ? Last year because of Scotts size - 6' 7" tall he was a huge presence in the red zone & on 3rd downs when we needed THE go to guy to (get er dun) & keep in mind he set or tied the record for TD's in one season for a TE (which could have been due to Metzelars which is another WHY DIDN"T WE KEEP HIM question) But So what are your thoughts about this subject & do you think Chandler will be around next year, or will he be on another team which we will face & get over his injury 100% & burn us for a couple of times a year for some game winning TD's ? I could see the Pats picking him up with the lose of Hernandez & paring him up with Gronk for another wicked TE tandem !! I think we should try to retain him (& teach our new QB how to use him) because after he (Chandler) learns this offense (and they learn how to use him) he will be a weapon then pick up another rookie TE to learn behind him while he shows what he's worth in our game ... Or develop Gragg & let Chandler walk at the end of this year while continuing to get younger while keeping the pay roll down by letting Chandler walk b/c he would probably ask or demand more than a rookie at the same position ? There you have it !! I think that the bottom line is that Chandler is not that good. He is not in the top 20 TEs in the league at this point and every year more productive guys are coming in. I think that the people on the board want to upgrade the position. When you have 1 NFL TE on your roster and he is in the bottom 3rd of starters in the league it should be a spot that you are targeting. Is Khalil Mack a WOLB? Because we're pretty good at the Jack/Defensive Specialist role with Mario and Hughes, but if his job would be to take over Bradham I could see why. If not, I would much rather see us take a TE. He is a pretty complete OLB. He would be taking over for Bradham but he could excel as a pass rusher as well. Mack is a special player and I would love to have him but I doubt that he is on the board when the Bills pick. I am going to guess that the Bills are going to pick around 15. I would suspect that Mack goes late in the top 10.
NoSaint Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 I've always seen ScoChan as "passable"; not great. I look at the best offenses in the league, and I see the clear and obvious impact that these Super-TEs bring to the table, and I can't help but think that such an addition would have the greatest positive affect on this offense of any potential offseason move. I'm not saying that Amaro or ASJ will become one of these guys, but just imagine how much better this offense could be with even a top 10 TE like Jordan Reed, Dennis Pitta, or (if you really nail the pick) Vernon Davis. It's not just a super TE but even a super WR.... We have a lot of good not great pieces in the passing game. Both Stevie and chandler leave huge gaps between what they do and what the top guys at their positions do.
RCOHEN13 Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 Ebron from NC, and Seffarian-Jenkins from WA are the two big names in this draft. THESE 2... Ebron is the best out there and is very quick.. If we end up picking after 10th, he should be our selection. MUST RE-SIGN BYRD!
San Jose Bills Fan Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 Chandler would make an excellent complimentary tight end. As it is, he's better than average as a receiver but below average as a blocker. Ideally the Bills have a starting TE who's better in both areas. As for team needs, I wholeheartedly agree with Whitewalker Merriman. After quarterback, pass rusher is always the biggest need IMO. Yes Kyle and Dareus are excellent inside rushers and Mario and Hughes are good edge rushers, and Pettine can create pressure schematically. But to become an elite defense, the Bills need an edge rusher who is a factor on every play. They don't presently have that and in spite of leading the NFL in sacks, there are still too many passing downs where the team doesn't get enough pressure. With a truly great edge rusher the Bills could kick Mario inside (he already disappears for long periods of time unfortunately) where he can use his athleticism against guards and use his height and ranginess to block out throwing lanes. I also agree with Machine Gun Kelly who listed needs but mentions that who the Bills pick at each spot will be based on value. It's great that the Bills have reached a point talent-wise that they can really start drafting best player available.
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