Toronto/Southern ON has passed Rochester as #2 market

[ThurmasThoman]

I am so sick of hearing about the Bills leaving Buffalo.

 

I don't even know how to explain this in terms that people can grasp. Sometimes I literally feel like driving to each individual posters house, and explaining to them in person how stupid they are.

 

When the Bills win the division when Brady retires and host a playoff game, let's say next year or the year after, they will be in the top 5 in the league for average attendence. They will have their prime time games, and they will be a viable franchise. Hell, right now they average more attendance than 14 other teams in the league AND WE ARE TERRIBLE.

 

So let's just go to imagination land for a second here, and pretend the Bills have left Buffalo forever. And you're the billionaire owner of the Jaguars. Or the Chargers. Or the Rams.

 

And Buffalo is just... sitting there... without an NFL team... with a stadium that already exists... and the guarantee that if you move a team there, you will have 80,000 die hard fans there every week forever.

 

Why is this point so hard to grasp?

 

Honestly?

 

Just quote this, and respond to me, and counter with why you think the Bills are going to leave Buffalo.

 

Theyre not.

 

And the reason theyre not, is because billionaire owners of professional sports teams are

a) smarter than you

and

b) better with their money than you

 

Buffalo is a PROVEN market that can generate large sums of money with a winning football team. Toronto is unproven, and a Bills move there would instantly alienate the entire Buffalo market, and you would be counting on an NFL team succeeding in a country that has 0 interest in professional football.

 

How is this so hard to understand?

[KollegeStudnet]

Buffalo will remain in WNY...

 

Odds are it will be in Niagara Falls, USA

[BillnutinHouston]

 

 

How has selling a game a year to an NFL-indifferent city where they can't even fill up a small baseball stadium for this once a year event "massively bolstered Buffalo's market"? People from Southern Ontario have been coming to Oarchard park for years. NEarly every game played so far in the skydoem by the Bills has been an embarrasment for the franchise--yet this alone has been responsible for this magical (and, if you listen to Russ, exponential) growth in Candian ticket buyers? How does that make sense? Is it the old "there's no such thing as bad advertising"?

 

All that matters is ticket sales, really.

 

Wow. Where to start?

 

It wouldn't matter if the Bills drew 10,000 a game in Toronto, because I'm NOT arguing that the Bills in TO series has been a success AT THE GATE. Sure they have made money (and paid Mario Williams) with this deal, but what I am arguing is, by physically playing in Toronto and by striking that deal, the Bills staked claim to that market FOR THE NEXT OWNER. By cementing the Buffalo-Toronto relationship, you make the potential future value of the franchise much greater, thereby improving ROI for the next prospective owner.

 

Are there still people who think ticket sales trump corporate support?

 

People need to get over the "woe is me" stuff and accept the reality that the Buffalo market without TO has no future in the NFL. I suggest that people who have trouble with this watch a few episodes of "Shark Tank" and learn to think like investors do.

[CodeMonkey]

Buffalo is a PROVEN market that can generate large sums of money with a winning football team.

 

How is this so hard to understand?

I agree in that if the Bills didn't suck for so long they would not have nearly the problems selling out that they have had in recent years.

 

But how do you figure "generate large sums of Money"? Whoever buys the Bills is almost certainly going to have some significant debt. Plus they are going to need a stadium, or at least significant renovations, sooner rather than later. Buffalo's ticket prices are some of the lowest in the NFL. It is significantly easier to pay down your debt when your customers are willing, and more importantly able, to pay $100 a ticket and $50 parking rather than $50 a ticket and $25 parking. Mr. Wilson can charge what he does because he carries no debt. New owners will likely not be in that same situation.

 

And then there is the corporate boxes etc. Toronto was supposed to help with this. I do not know if it has or not yet, but it is pretty easy to see how a city in a non-economically depressed area such as Buffalo would make selling luxury/corporate boxes much easier and at a much higher price.

 

If the Bills stay or go will depend upon economics. Unless as some have mentioned, a group of white knights forgo economics in favor of the tradition of having the "Buffalo" Bills.

 

Filling a stadium is great, particularly with fans like there are in Buffalo. But at the end of the day it needs to be run as a $800M business.

Edited November 28, 2013 by CodeMonkey

[BillsVet]

Buffalo is a PROVEN market that can generate large sums of money with a winning football team. Toronto is unproven, and a Bills move there would instantly alienate the entire Buffalo market, and you would be counting on an NFL team succeeding in a country that has 0 interest in professional football.

 

How is this so hard to understand?

 

The NFL and the owners of their franchises don't care about people like me and some of my friends who spend 60 bucks on individual game tickets. The lion's share of a franchise's income is derived from a sharing of the television revenue, which, IIRC, is about 100M per. Ticket sales, merchandising, and advertising is a far cry from that. But where individual teams also make big dollars is the luxury suites, which obviously are based on the stadium. And so, building stadiums has become the main mechanism to increase revenue. IIRC, 20+ teams having built new digs in the past 20 years indicate the league is encouraging teams to do just this. We know the Bills aren't getting a new stadium anytime soon, and even if they did, the corporate presence in WNY isn't enough to sustain the income NFL franchises want to make from suites and partnerships.

 

The corporate world is all about getting bigger. No one is content to remain at the same level because maintaining isn't growing. The NFL is the same way and I think Buffalo, without some serious changes in the local economy, is going to be left behind for greener pastures.

[SF Bills Fan]

Toronto would be a terrible stand alone market if the Bills moved permanently there. And I mean standalone in that, zero people from Buffalo and Rochester would be traveling up there to pay big ticket prices to watch a team that was "stolen" away. The Bills in Toronto series, if anything, has exposed Toronto as a lukewarm, at best, NFL market. I think you would have a hard time attracting free agents there and combine that with a fan base that doesn't have the passion for the team like the fans in Buffalo do and I would see a football wasteland. Somone in the toronto media this week media (I'm too lazy right now) to go back and look up who) in Toronto mentioned 25k to 50k PSLs to build a new stadium in Toronto. Uh uh. I can't see people ponying up that much. I could see people doing that for a second NHL team and arena in Mississauga. Best scenario is a new stadium in the Niagara area (American side) to make it easier for the hardcore Canadian fans to get to the game, with ownership by someone (not named Bon Jovi) based in Buffalo with a second game (at most) given to Toronto with reasonable ticket prices to lure the hardcore Buffalo fans north a few times a year.

[Badasss]

More people building whatever narrative fits their own personal belief. Yup, Brandon is saying up yours. He's a liar and thinks you're all schmucks and evilly laughs as you continue to buy tickets while he waits to move the team. I've heard Brandon say several times that the results of the Toronto series have not been perfect and that a winning team is needed to capture the audience and capitalize on the huge population in Southern Ontario. Yet, all you see is a giant caricature counting money.

 

The painful truth is that without a winning team, without a strong fan base in Southern Ontario and without corporate money from Toronto area businesses the team is gone after six years. So keep rooting for the Toronto series to fail. Maybe the Bills will move and you can say "I was right!"

 

I'll keep saying this because it's extremely relevant as precedent is all we have to go on. The Green Bay Packers played games in Milwaukee (118 miles away) from 1933-1994. It kept the Packers in Green Bay viable. As a teen in the early 90's I thought it was a joke and would have been devastated if the Bills played games anywhere but Buffalo. However, I grew up, learned about business and learned to have an open mind. Without those games, Milwaukee becomes a Chicago Bears town (92 miles away) and the Packers in Green Bay probably don't even exist.

I don't think Milwaukee would EVER have become a Bears town. Battle lines are co-terminous with state lines in the Midwest.

[ThurmasThoman]

I agree in that if the Bills didn't suck for so long they would not have nearly the problems selling out that they have had in recent years.

 

But how do you figure "generate large sums of Money"? Whoever buys the Bills is almost certainly going to have some significant debt. Plus they are going to need a stadium, or at least significant renovations, sooner rather than later. Buffalo's ticket prices are some of the lowest in the NFL. It is significantly easier to pay down your debt when your customers are willing, and more importantly able, to pay $100 a ticket and $50 parking rather than $50 a ticket and $25 parking. Mr. Wilson can charge what he does because he carries no debt. New owners will not be in that same situation.

 

And then there is the corporate boxes etc. Toronto was supposed to help with this. I do not know if it has or not yet, but it is pretty easy to see how a city in a non-economically depressed area such as Buffalo would make selling luxury/corporate boxes much easier and at a much higher price.

 

If the Bills stay or go will depend upon economics. Unless as some have mentioned, a group of white knights forgo economics in favor of the tradition of having the "Buffalo" Bills.

 

Filling a stadium is great, particularly with fans like there are in Buffalo. But at the end of the day it needs to be run as a $800M business.

 

While I agree to a large extent that the tickets are "cheap", Buffalo has two things going for it:

 

They are posting these attendance numbers with the "losing-est" team in the league--would fans not pay DOUBLE the current ticket prices if the Bills were division champions 3 seasons in a row?

 

Furthermore, (and more importantly) this is a river that flows one way and one way only: if the Bills are successful, people will come from southern ontario to watch, and they will spend good money when theyre there. if the Bills move to toronto though, NO ONE from Buffalo is going to stick with that team for 15 straight losing seasons--in fact, i have a feeling it would be just the opposite.

 

So why does that matter?

 

If you spend 300 million dollars to buy a toy, what makes more sense: disassembling the toy and bringing it to a friends house, knowing he might be interested in it for an hour but then ultimately break it. Or keep the toy at your house, and invite your friends over to play with it there, where you know it will be safe forever, and could potentially grow into an even more enjoyable toy.

[CodeMonkey]

They are posting these attendance numbers with the "losing-est" team in the league--would fans not pay DOUBLE the current ticket prices if the Bills were division champions 3 seasons in a row?

No they would not. Not because they wouldn't want to, but simply with the economy in Buffalo they cannot afford to. It is the same with most corporations in Buffalo ... three division championships, ten division championships, or no division championships.

 

This is not because the Bills fans are not deserving of a team, it's just economics.

Edited November 28, 2013 by CodeMonkey

[ThurmasThoman]

The NFL and the owners of their franchises don't care about people like me and some of my friends who spend 60 bucks on individual game tickets. The lion's share of a franchise's income is derived from a sharing of the television revenue, which, IIRC, is about 100M per. Ticket sales, merchandising, and advertising is a far cry from that. But where individual teams also make big dollars is the luxury suites, which obviously are based on the stadium. And so, building stadiums has become the main mechanism to increase revenue. IIRC, 20+ teams having built new digs in the past 20 years indicate the league is encouraging teams to do just this. We know the Bills aren't getting a new stadium anytime soon, and even if they did, the corporate presence in WNY isn't enough to sustain the income NFL franchises want to make from suites and partnerships.

 

The corporate world is all about getting bigger. No one is content to remain at the same level because maintaining isn't growing. The NFL is the same way and I think Buffalo, without some serious changes in the local economy, is going to be left behind for greener pastures.

 

And Cleveland? And Cincinnati? And Pittsburgh? And Detroit?

 

You mention teams that have built new stadiums in the last 20 years--now go look at the league standings from 20 years ago and youll see something else. Every city that had an NFL team then, has an NFL team today (save los angeles). Look at any other sport, and you will see its drastically different.

 

To you or I, its "woe is me, the sky is falling, bye bye Bills, who would every play a game in Buffalo."

 

There is a reason cleveland, woeful cleveland ohio, got a team back after the ravens left, and that reason is this.

 

A proven civic infrastructure that can support an NFL franchise and keep it's valuation in the hundreds of millions of dollars is a rare thing in America: ask Los Angeles. To you, it may not seem like a big deal, because ticket prices are cheap, but the fact of the matter is this:

 

there is proof of concept in buffalo, and it has been working efficiently for 50+ years. that's a half century of a successful business that continues to grow, and be valued in the hundreds of millions. If it was that easy for a city to support a venture like that, teams would move on a whim, like they do in every other sport. If the concept were that simple, to just go to the biggest, wealthiest, cities...

 

WHY DOESNT LOS ANGELES HAVE AN NFL TEAM??

 

don't confuse the success of the local economy with the long term viability of the Buffalo Bills: they are not directly correlated. I have been saying this since the first time i heard someone mention the idea of the Bills leaving Buffalo. It. Aint. Happening.

 

Ralph wilson has ZERO ties to Buffalo. If there was more money to be made elsewhere, he would have left long, long, long ago.

 

The fact of the matter is, the western new york/southern ontario region is an ENORMOUS market that is EXTREMELY devoted to the buffalo Bills. Goodell has no intention of alienating half of new york state for a venture that would likely fail in toronto.

 

Now, if someone wants to shift the conversation to "regionalization", ie, building a stadium in niagra, or rebranding it as the Eerie Bills, or something along those lines, im all ears. But to think that Buffalo won't have any connection to the Bills is not a conversation worth having.

 

No they would not. Not because they wouldn't want to, but simply with the economy in Buffalo they cannot afford to. It is the same with most corporations in Buffalo ... three division championships, ten division championships, or no division championships.

 

This is not because the Bills fans are not deserving of a team, it's just economics.

 

I could not disagree more. And I say this because I know people that drive 8 hours to see Bills games when Buffalo is winning. Bills fans are crazy, and a successful franchise will draw fans from a 4 hour radius. The fact that the Bills even have fans with how sh*tty they have been since clinton was president is testament to the fact that a succesful team would make money hand over fist.

Edited November 28, 2013 by JohnnyGold

[BuffaloBrad]

In the club seats and suites, there are a fair number of people that fly in for the games. At one point, I was part of that crowd flying in from San Francisco for 4 games a year and selling the rest. I remember one year sitting next to a couple that flew in from NYC for every game.

 

As recent as 5 years ago, the sideline club seats were pretty full. It's just the last few years that they've had problems selling them. I have no doubt they will sell them when the Bills are good again, and I hope some of those seats are filled with folks from Toronto.

[CodeMonkey]

I could not disagree more. And I say this because I know people that drive 8 hours to see Bills games when Buffalo is winning. Bills fans are crazy, and a successful franchise will draw fans from a 4 hour radius. The fact that the Bills even have fans with how sh*tty they have been since clinton was president is testament to the fact that a succesful team would make money hand over fist.

People cannot pay what they do not have.

But your point about how a winning team could draw people who can afford the higher priced tickets and are willing to drive 4 hours to games is certainly possible. I don't believe it, but it certainly is possible. Agree to disagree

[PearlHowardman]

A new Buffalo Bills stadium in Batavia secures fans from Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse. These three cities is enough to support an NFL team.

 

Throw in a pre-season game at the Carrier Dome in Syracuse and the Bills have all of CNY/WNY.

Edited November 28, 2013 by PearlHowardman

[GG]

considering how much of our taxes support them, it's the least they can do.

 

I'd stick to QB prognostication. You obviously know that more than you do NYS finances.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

I'd stick to QB prognostication. You obviously know that more than you do NYS finances.

 

so tell me how it works?

[dubs]

 

 

How has selling a game a year to an NFL-indifferent city where they can't even fill up a small baseball stadium for this once a year event "massively bolstered Buffalo's market"? People from Southern Ontario have been coming to Oarchard park for years. NEarly every game played so far in the skydoem by the Bills has been an embarrasment for the franchise--yet this alone has been responsible for this magical (and, if you listen to Russ, exponential) growth in Candian ticket buyers? How does that make sense? Is it the old "there's no such thing as bad advertising"?

 

All that matters is ticket sales, really. Even in the past 13 seasons of futlilty and ineptitude on the front office running this team, the Bills have sold nearly 88% of their tickets. They have been very steadily profitable ("viable" if you prefer) whether they produce a winner on the field or not. Had they invested in better front office and coaching talent and had produced a winning team, they could easily sell out season after season and even have a waiting list for tickets. Note that this "massive" increase in interested Canadian individuals has not led to the elimination of blackouts....

 

Look, if Ralph had rolled some of the tens of millions of dollars he takes in yearly profits into financing half or most of the cost of a new stadium 10 or 15 years ago, we wouldn't be having any of these discussions. Heck, if Ralph wasn't 95, or if he had sold the team 10 or 15 years ago to someone more adept (or interested) in actually running an NFL franchise we would be all set right now. Insted, he held on to the team until its price became prohibitive and "his" stadium aged to the point where it needs to first have 200 million dollars burned on it and then replaced.

 

The Toronto deal has made it far more, not less, likely the Bills will move---to Toronto! Had he never offered them the Bills, it's doubtful they would be sucking up to Jon "Bon Jovi"!--of all people.

 

The Toronto games have done nothing to keep the Bills in Buffalo. But winning certainly would have.

 

 

 

 

You have to stop with the "LA" boogeyman. It is dead. No stadium. No team. It's not a viable argument.

 

I've said it once and I'll say it again, the only people to blame for this situation are the lawmakers and politicians who have precipitated this slow death in WNY. Decades of mismanagement of the area causing the economy to lag the rest of the country is the primary cause. Extending that logic, you could argue than it's the people who vote for these morons.

 

Buffalo is small enough to be different and reverse course, but perhaps not in time to keep the team here.

 

Only thing that saves the Bills is a miracle or a drastic upturn in the local economy. Period.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

I've said it once and I'll say it again, the only people to blame for this situation are the lawmakers and politicians who have precipitated this slow death in WNY. Decades of mismanagement of the area causing the economy to lag the rest of the country is the primary cause. Extending that logic,

 

you could argue than it's the people who vote for these morons.

 

Buffalo is small enough to be different and reverse course, but perhaps not in time to keep the team here.

 

Only thing that saves the Bills is a miracle or a drastic upturn in the local economy. Period.

 

no, there are no real choices to vote from, and they all just tell us what we want to hear and then do what they really want, usually against the peoples wishes.

[Badasss]

 

 

I've said it once and I'll say it again, the only people to blame for this situation are the lawmakers and politicians who have precipitated this slow death in WNY. Decades of mismanagement of the area causing the economy to lag the rest of the country is the primary cause. Extending that logic, you could argue than it's the people who vote for these morons.

 

Buffalo is small enough to be different and reverse course, but perhaps not in time to keep the team here.

 

Only thing that saves the Bills is a miracle or a drastic upturn in the local economy. Period.

 

Getting rid of Sheldon Silver would definitely be a step in the right direction for all of WNY.

[jester43]

More people building whatever narrative fits their own personal belief. Yup, Brandon is saying up yours. He's a liar and thinks you're all schmucks and evilly laughs as you continue to buy tickets while he waits to move the team. I've heard Brandon say several times that the results of the Toronto series have not been perfect and that a winning team is needed to capture the audience and capitalize on the huge population in Southern Ontario. Yet, all you see is a giant caricature counting money.

 

The painful truth is that without a winning team, without a strong fan base in Southern Ontario and without corporate money from Toronto area businesses the team is gone after six years. So keep rooting for the Toronto series to fail. Maybe the Bills will move and you can say "I was right!"

 

I'll keep saying this because it's extremely relevant as precedent is all we have to go on. The Green Bay Packers played games in Milwaukee (118 miles away) from 1933-1994. It kept the Packers in Green Bay viable. As a teen in the early 90's I thought it was a joke and would have been devastated if the Bills played games anywhere but Buffalo. However, I grew up, learned about business and learned to have an open mind. Without those games, Milwaukee becomes a Chicago Bears town (92 miles away) and the Packers in Green Bay probably don't even exist.

you don't know anyone from Wisconsin, do you?

[mrags]

Attracting fans from the east is the best hope that Buffalo has in keeping the Bills out of Toronto. All this chatter this week about moving the team to Toronto and the "small market" discussion fails to acknowledge that the Bills have done a great job extending their brand beyond Buffalo.

 

The problem for Buffalo comes down to money and a stadium. My suggestion is build one in Niagara Falls and make the Bills a true international destination. The American side of the Falls is an armpit. Building a world class stadium there could provide a much needed boost to tourism. The biggest issue is access in and out for game traffic.

well said BB