Why isn't anyone talking about Stevie?

[Mr. WEO]

Maybe if Stevie, a guy who "struggles" with the rigors of the NFL as someone above explains, should improve himself with an off-season regimen like that of a guy like Jerry Rice, a legendary workout fanatic who lasted nearly 20 years in the league and had a dozen 16 game seasons.

 

"Playing basketball" with his buddies as an off-season regimen is, for this sport, a joke. Stevie's not tough enough for the NFL's rigors? He can fix that, I'm confident--if someone made him. If I was Ralph (or whoever), I would compel him to do so.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Mr. WEO

[Orton's Arm]

 

 

If we hadn't been very publicly subjected to so many of Stevie's bad personality characteristics over the years I would say there is reason to give him the benefit of the doubt as a worker.

 

I have a more favorable impression of Stevie's personality than do many here.

 

The Bills aren't a perfect organization. As such, they're not going to attract perfect people. Let's say you were a WR of Stevie's caliber; and let's say you were motivated only by winning. As your first contract came to a close, would you sign an extension--or would you leave to go to a team that gave you a chance to win?

 

Stevie gave us three consecutive 1000 yard seasons. That's more than most number one WRs can say. He gets good production even against Revis. He gets open all the time.

 

Could he stay on the field more if he had a better offseason work ethic? Possibly. The day that the Bills roster is filled with perfect players, I'll be the first to say that there's no more room for Stevie. But in the meantime, we should acknowledge that Stevie is one of the best players on our roster. He hasn't robbed anyone, he hasn't raped anyone, he hasn't run anyone over with his SUV. With a guy like that, why not focus on the positives more than the negatives?

Edited November 25, 2013 by Edwards' Arm

[Dibs]

If people took the time to look at the career stats of other WRs in the NFL they would see that virtually every other starting WR in the game could also be painted with the "struggles with the rigors of the NFL" brush.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

If we hadn't been very publicly subjected to so many of Stevie's bad personality characteristics over the years I would say there is reason to give him the benefit of the doubt as a worker.

 

So your assumption is that a 7th rounder who became a star receiver isn't a hard worker?

 

Okay.

 

Maybe if Stevie, a guy who "struggles" with the rigors of the NFL as someone above explains, should improve himself with an off-season regimen like that of a guy like Jerry Rice, a legendary workout fanatic who lasted nearly 20 years in the league and had a dozen 16 game seasons.

 

"Playing basketball" with his buddies as an off-season regimen is, for this sport, a joke. Stevie's not tough enough for the NFL's rigors? He can fix that, I'm confident--if someone made him. If I was Ralph (or whoever), I would compel him to do so.

 

1) We have no idea of how hard Stevie works. You choose to believe that he doesn't work hard enough. His ascendancy as a 7th rounder made good would seem to indicate the exact opposite.

 

2) Do you think everyone can simply emulate Jerry Rice and thus ward off injuries?

 

3) You ignore the very real possibility that in a league of workaholics that Jerry Rice, the greatest receiver ever to play, was a physical freak. Do you also think that if everyone worked as hard as Jerry Rice that they would also have 20 year playing careers?

 

4) The first point you ignore is that injuries can just as easily be a function of overtraining as they can undertraining.

 

5) The second point you ignore is that some players will be injury prone regardless of their training methods. You and Badol are ignoring the truth that every individual has different genetics.

[Mr. WEO]

So your assumption is that a 7th rounder who became a star receiver isn't a hard worker?

 

Okay.

 

 

 

1) We have no idea of how hard Stevie works. You choose to believe that he doesn't work hard enough. His ascendancy as a 7th rounder made good would seem to indicate the exact opposite.

 

2) Do you think everyone can simply emulate Jerry Rice and thus ward off injuries?

 

3) You ignore the very real possibility that in a league of workaholics that Jerry Rice, the greatest receiver ever to play, was a physical freak. Do you also think that if everyone worked as hard as Jerry Rice that they would also have 20 year playing careers?

 

4) The first point you ignore is that injuries can just as easily be a function of overtraining as they can undertraining.

 

5) The second point you ignore is that some players will be injury prone regardless of their training methods. You and Badol are ignoring the truth that every individual has different genetics.

 

I know of no correlation between where a man is drafted and how hard he works or worked to be named starter. A player from a small college with modest stats will rarely be drafted in a high round, no matter how hard he works. Likewise, it is not intuitive that a guy who earns a starting job from a 7th round pick got there simply by hard work. Could be he is just very talented and this was discovered after he was drafted.

 

No, not everyone who trains like Rice will become Rice (who even would suggest this?), but it is easy to conclude that such a devotion to physical fitness year round was a key to his success. He would certainly tell you this. And it is also easy to conclude that anyone, especially someone who is as tender (for the NFL) as you claim SJ to be, could only benefit from a professional, year round training routine.

 

You might want to consider the possibility that Rice was a physical freak because of his regimen. It's only logical.

 

There is no evidence that SJ had some secret intense workout regimen (you, for instance, can only cite pickup basketball) that we don't know about--let alone such a regimen that would actually harm him with its intensity.

 

In fact, based on his own public comments and the fact that he has persistent nagging non career threatening injuries, I consider his conditioning efforts dubious.

[BADOLBILZ]

I have a more favorable impression of Stevie's personality than do many here.

 

The Bills aren't a perfect organization. As such, they're not going to attract perfect people. Let's say you were a WR of Stevie's caliber; and let's say you were motivated only by winning. As your first contract came to a close, would you sign an extension--or would you leave to go to a team that gave you a chance to win?

 

Stevie gave us three consecutive 1000 yard seasons. That's more than most number one WRs can say. He gets good production even against Revis. He gets open all the time.

 

Could he stay on the field more if he had a better offseason work ethic? Possibly. The day that the Bills roster is filled with perfect players, I'll be the first to say that there's no more room for Stevie. But in the meantime, we should acknowledge that Stevie is one of the best players on our roster. He hasn't robbed anyone, he hasn't raped anyone, he hasn't run anyone over with his SUV. With a guy like that, why not focus on the positives more than the negatives?

 

I have never seen an NFL player so openly defy an organizational edict as what Stevie did in the finale at NE 3 years ago. The most disrespectful thing I have ever seen a Bills player do.

 

Do I personally care? Not really. The organization was a joke and the behavior is a fair reflection of the amount of respect they deserved. That is why most fans gave him a pass as well.

 

But if this was a good team, competing for something of importance........he would have been one of those guys that gets you beat with his stupidity. In the abyss of losing the Bills are in, one or two games haven't been the difference.

 

But that and the terrible performance in rare clutch situations, his blackout-crazy behavior like in the Jets game this year.........he's just a f*cking idiot.

 

So do I tend to think maybe he doesn't do all he can to be all he can be? You bet. Every time. He is far from deserving of the benefit of the doubt. Especially when he says he doesn't train hard.

 

As I said in the post that started this discussion......he is an effective player when he is on the field and they can't afford to spare his talent....IF he is producing.

[Orton's Arm]

 

 

I have never seen an NFL player so openly defy an organizational edict as what Stevie did in the finale at NE 3 years ago. The most disrespectful thing I have ever seen a Bills player do.

 

Do I personally care? Not really. The organization was a joke and the behavior is a fair reflection of the amount of respect they deserved. That is why most fans gave him a pass as well.

 

But if this was a good team, competing for something of importance........he would have been one of those guys that gets you beat with his stupidity. In the abyss of losing the Bills are in, one or two games haven't been the difference.

 

But that and the terrible performance in rare clutch situations, his blackout-crazy behavior like in the Jets game this year.........he's just a f*cking idiot.

 

So do I tend to think maybe he doesn't do all he can to be all he can be? You bet. Every time. He is far from deserving of the benefit of the doubt. Especially when he says he doesn't train hard.

 

As I said in the post that started this discussion......he is an effective player when he is on the field and they can't afford to spare his talent....IF he is producing.

 

Several years ago, one of the controversies on this board was whether a seventh round pick who'd looked good in preseason deserved playing time during the regular season. The fact that the discussion has gone from that to this demonstrates how far Stevie has come.

 

As for the occasional 15 yard penalties: it's obvious that the chance to do something a little creative and/or memorable is very motivating to Stevie. I realize there are those who feel it shouldn't be; and that he should completely subsume his ego to that of the team.

 

Let's say for the sake of argument that he gets three personal fouls per year, for a total of 45 yards. Compare that to an offensive lineman who sometimes loses focus or gets sloppy; resulting in 3 holding penalties and 3 false starts per year (also 45 yards). Should Stevie Johnson's 45 annual penalty yards be judged more harshly than the offensive lineman's 45 annual penalty yards? Is it worse to get hit with penalty yards from something that feeds you energy (Stevie) or from a lack of attention and mental energy (the offensive lineman)?

 

An advocate for Stevie might say that if the prospect of autographing footballs in the end zone energizes him; then his elevated playing level would help compensate for those 45 penalty yards. On the other hand, there is no offsetting compensation for the offensive lineman's occasional lapses in focus.

 

You could argue that drawing attention to oneself in a penalty-generating way is selfish. I'm not 100% comfortable with that adjective, because I think Stevie is trying to entertain the fans and even his own teammates with those celebrations. A desire to be entertaining is not typically seen as selfish. But I don't feel that entertainment should be placed ahead of the good of the team.

 

But if Stevie isn't always a perfect example for the team; an offensive lineman with lapses in focus isn't a perfect example either.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Edwards' Arm

[mjt328]

Why So Serious?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry. I love Stevie Johnson.

[BADOLBILZ]

Several years ago, one of the controversies on this board was whether a seventh round pick who'd looked good in preseason deserved playing time during the regular season. The fact that the discussion has gone from that to this demonstrates how far Stevie has come.

 

As for the occasional 15 yard penalties: it's obvious that the chance to do something a little creative and/or memorable is very motivating to Stevie. I realize there are those who feel it shouldn't be; and that he should completely subsume his ego to that of the team.

 

Let's say for the sake of argument that he gets three personal fouls per year, for a total of 45 yards. Compare that to an offensive lineman who sometimes loses focus or gets sloppy; resulting in 3 holding penalties and 3 false starts per year (also 45 yards). Should Stevie Johnson's 45 annual penalty yards be judged more harshly than the offensive lineman's 45 annual penalty yards? Is it worse to get hit with penalty yards from something that feeds you energy (Stevie) or from a lack of attention and mental energy (the offensive lineman)?

 

An advocate for Stevie might say that if the prospect of autographing footballs in the end zone energizes him; then his elevated playing level would help compensate for those 45 penalty yards. On the other hand, there is no offsetting compensation for the offensive lineman's occasional lapses in focus.

 

You could argue that drawing attention to oneself in a penalty-generating way is selfish. I'm not 100% comfortable with that adjective, because I think Stevie is trying to entertain the fans and even his own teammates with those celebrations. A desire to be entertaining is not typically seen as selfish. But I don't feel that entertainment should be placed ahead of the good of the team.

 

But if Stevie isn't always a perfect example for the team; an offensive lineman with lapses in focus isn't a perfect example either.

 

Your argument here is very thin.

 

Post play personal/conduct fouls are completely preventable and only hurt your team. An in-play violation can be an action that is uncalled many times for the once it is called. Those uncalled times can result in a wealth of gains for the team. Example: "holding or hands to face" that opens up a running lane or allows a QB to make a play. I am assuming you just didn't think this thru but this is as clear as day. Dead ball fouls are all bad.

 

And wanting to entertain people at the expense of your team success is selfish. I hope I cleared that up for you.

 

Why So Serious?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry. I love Stevie Johnson.

 

You are welcome to that.

 

I don't feel that personally about the players. I cheer for the laundry and the fans.

 

What is funny though is that this argument that people try to make about how Stevie is such a great guy because he was a seventh round pick and became a good player............how wonderful does that make Jason Peters then?

[mjt328]

 

 

Your argument here is very thin.

 

Post play personal/conduct fouls are completely preventable and only hurt your team. An in-play violation can be an action that is uncalled many times for the once it is called. Those uncalled times can result in a wealth of gains for the team. Example: "holding or hands to face" that opens up a running lane or allows a QB to make a play. I am assuming you just didn't think this thru but this is as clear as day. Dead ball fouls are all bad.

 

And wanting to entertain people at the expense of your team success is selfish. I hope I cleared that up for you.

 

How many "celebration" penalties has Stevie had in his career?

[BADOLBILZ]

How many "celebration" penalties has Stevie had in his career?

 

In all fairness the deadball fouls are usually just in divisional games like NYJ and NE. The dropped passes/failures to secure tough throws are more universal.

[mjt328]

 

In all fairness the deadball fouls are usually just in divisional games like NYJ and NE. The dropped passes/failures to secure tough throws are more universal.

 

OK. How many dropped passes does he have in his career then?

 

There are lots of great receivers that drop big ones from time to time. We are watching one tonight (Welker). You don't just boot them off your team.

 

We all remember the Steelers game 4 years ago. I refuse to hold one mistake against a player for his whole career.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

What is funny though is that this argument that people try to make about how Stevie is such a great guy because he was a seventh round pick and became a good player............how wonderful does that make Jason Peters then?

 

?

 

I brought up the 7th round issue to illustrate that he had to work hard and overcome the bias against lowly-drafted players in order to establish himself.

[Orton's Arm]

 

 

Your argument here is very thin.

 

Post play personal/conduct fouls are completely preventable and only hurt your team. An in-play violation can be an action that is uncalled many times for the once it is called. Those uncalled times can result in a wealth of gains for the team. Example: "holding or hands to face" that opens up a running lane or allows a QB to make a play. I am assuming you just didn't think this thru but this is as clear as day. Dead ball fouls are all bad.

 

And wanting to entertain people at the expense of your team success is selfish. I hope I cleared that up for you.

 

 

 

You are welcome to that.

 

I don't feel that personally about the players. I cheer for the laundry and the fans.

 

What is funny though is that this argument that people try to make about how Stevie is such a great guy because he was a seventh round pick and became a good player............how wonderful does that make Jason Peters then?

 

> Your argument here is very thin.

 

At least that's better than it being overweight!

 

> I am assuming you just didn't

> think this thru but this is as clear as day.

 

You forget to whom you speak!

 

Of course I thought it through! I wrote that those particular penalties on the offensive lineman occurred because of sloppiness or lapses in concentration. I acknowledge that going a little beyond what the rules allow can also be part of a deliberate strategy. But my example wasn't about that; except insofar as the deliberate strategy in question was rendered necessary by the initial lapses in concentration or sloppiness.

 

To return to the question of Stevie Johnson: there's a certain . . . confidence, arrogance, and/or swagger regarding some of the stuff he does. The unstated message is that if he costs the team 15 yards in a celebration penalty, he's good enough to get that 15 yards right back. To make it seem like a drop in the bucket.

 

You want your team to have that kind of attitude. Trent Edwards could have had a much better career if he'd had more of that attitude. I'm not saying you want guys taking needless penalties left and right--that's going too far--but you want guys who think they could take those penalties and still win. When you do something at an elite level--when you're better than your competition--you can feel invincible. The Bills need more of that feeling, not less.

 

[Bill from NYC]

I disagree. TD and Marv were too shortsighted. That was their undoing. For example: in Marv's first year as a GM, he decided to treat it like a win-now year. He felt the two players he most had to have to win now were a SS and DT; which is why he focused on those two positions with his first two picks of the 2006 draft. Yes, the Bills had a large hole at DT, and a stopgap solution at center. But was John McCargo (DT) really a better pick than Nick Mangold; who went on to become the best center in the league? Was Donte Whitner really the best football player available at 8th overall?

 

In his second year as GM, Marv amped up the win-now approach even more. He used a top-12 pick on Lynch, despite having a perfectly good RB in McGahee; and despite the short careers typically associated with RBs. Both RBs and LBs are known for being able to contribute quickly as rookies; so Marv's first two picks of 2007 were consistent with the "win now" theme he'd established in 2006. The same could be said about TD's strong overemphasis on the RB position during his tenure. Two other examples come to mind of TD's win now mentality: his decision to let Antoine Winfield walk in order to overpay for Troy Vincent and Lawyer Milloy. Also, his decision to trade away a valuable first round pick for another team's aging backup QB.

 

> the Bills seem content with re-building and end up facing small windows

 

The Bills are ADHD. They lack the patience for a disciplined, long-term rebuild effort. Everything has to be right away. They've repeatedly sacrificed the long-term interests of the team in order to be better in the moment. The reason windows are so short is because in the post-Polian era, the team has lacked a core of good players/long term answers around whom to build.

 

Sorry my friend but I gotta respond to your comments about 2006.

 

Marv turned down many trade down offers(I heard him say this) for the #8 selection. That draft was stocked with players at positions of need, serious need for the Bills.

 

Levy used the #8 on a small, not so highly rated safety. After trading up for a dreadful McCargo, don't forget that his next 2 selections were Youboty and Ko Simpson. Win now? Really? I contend that he made these idiotic moves due to a philosophical devotion to the secondary. He hurt the team for many years with this approach and brought in his clone in Jauron, who hammered some more nails in the Bills coffin.

 

To put it in context, I am currently as happy as I have been in many, many years with the secondary. Yet, I am going to give some credit for this to the DL and of course Pettine. A pass rush sure makes life easier for DBs. Otoh the Levy/Jauron tandem obviously believed otherwise. They wanted to build a team through DBs and RBs which is of course impossible.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Bill from NYC

[BADOLBILZ]

OK. How many dropped passes does he have in his career then?

 

There are lots of great receivers that drop big ones from time to time. We are watching one tonight (Welker). You don't just boot them off your team.

 

We all remember the Steelers game 4 years ago. I refuse to hold one mistake against a player for his whole career.

 

We really don't have to go thru and re-document Stevie's drops/failures to make tough catches do we? There have been many, the most recent being the drop in the opener against NE that he received a lot of much deserved criticism for. I didn't suggest booting him off the team. Quite the opposite. Do I want the ball going to him in the clutch though? No. I think he has created a psychological barrier for himself in big situations and I don't trust him.

[BADOLBILZ]

> Your argument here is very thin.

 

At least that's better than it being overweight!

 

> I am assuming you just didn't

> think this thru but this is as clear as day.

 

You forget to whom you speak!

 

Of course I thought it through! I wrote that those particular penalties on the offensive lineman occurred because of sloppiness or lapses in concentration. I acknowledge that going a little beyond what the rules allow can also be part of a deliberate strategy. But my example wasn't about that; except insofar as the deliberate strategy in question was rendered necessary by the initial lapses in concentration or sloppiness.

 

To return to the question of Stevie Johnson: there's a certain . . . confidence, arrogance, and/or swagger regarding some of the stuff he does. The unstated message is that if he costs the team 15 yards in a celebration penalty, he's good enough to get that 15 yards right back. To make it seem like a drop in the bucket.

 

You want your team to have that kind of attitude. Trent Edwards could have had a much better career if he'd had more of that attitude. I'm not saying you want guys taking needless penalties left and right--that's going too far--but you want guys who think they could take those penalties and still win. When you do something at an elite level--when you're better than your competition--you can feel invincible. The Bills need more of that feeling, not less.

 

If you have an OL that has 9 false starts.....the equivalent of three personal fouls......yeah, you have an issue with that OL. He probably isn't playing for you next year. But even in that instance a false start can be the byproduct of many perfect get-offs that protect your QB and help create big plays. Dead ball fouls are something different altogether.

[Orton's Arm]

Sorry my friend but I gotta respond to your comments about 2006.

 

Marv turned down many trade down offers(I heard his say this) for the #8 selection. That draft was stocked with players at positions of need, serious need for the Bills.

 

Levy used the #8 on a small, not so highly rated safety. After trading up for a dreadful McCargo, don't forget that his next 2 selections were Youboty and Ko Simpson. Win now? Really? I contend that he made these idiotic moves due to a philosophical devotion to the secondary. He hurt the team for many years with this approach and brought in his clone in Jauron, who hammered some more nails in the Bills coffin.

 

To put it in context, I am currently as happy as I have been in many, many years with the secondary. Yet, I am going to give some credit for this to the DL and of course Pettine. A pass rush sure makes life easier for DBs. Otoh the Levy/Jauron tandem obviously believed otherwise. They wanted to build a team through DBs and RBs which is of course impossible.

 

> Marv turned down many trade down offers(I heard his say this) for the #8 selection.

 

I read several articles indicating that Denver was eager to trade up to 8th overall. The veracity of those articles was reinforced by the fact that Denver did in fact trade up to take Cutler.

 

> That draft was stocked with players at positions of need, serious need for the Bills.

 

Agreed. But I remember Marv saying that he wanted his first two draft picks to be used on an SS and a DT; in no particular order. Going into the draft, the Bills had more needs than just at SS and DT. So why was Marv focused on getting the best combination of SS and DT he could with his first two picks? I think that decision was the result of the following thought process:

1) The Bills needed to be respectable in Marv's very first year.

2) The first step toward getting respectable is to build a reasonably solid defense.

3) The two puzzle pieces most needed for a solid defense were SS and DT. The defense could maybe get away with some of its other weaknesses for the time being, but those two positions had to be fixed right away!

 

One of the reasons Marv didn't take Ngata 8th overall was because he felt that Ngata at 8th overall + a late first round SS would be a worse SS/DT combination than Whitner + McCargo. Also, Ngata wasn't seen as a good fit for Jauron's Tampa 2.

 

> I contend that he made these idiotic moves due to a philosophical devotion to the secondary.

 

Agreed. But that doesn't contradict what I've written above. Marv was short-sighted and he was overly devoted to the secondary.

 

> They wanted to build a team through DBs and RBs which is of course impossible.

 

Also agreed. But if a GM is shortsighted, he becomes that much more likely to use a first round pick on a running back. RBs contribute a lot as rookies, satisfying his need for instant gratification. They have short careers; but the GM doesn't care about that because he's shortsighted.

 

Also, there is this: if a GM wants to upgrade the running game, he needs either to upgrade the OL or the RB position. Five draft picks are required to upgrade every starter on the OL; as opposed to one pick to upgrade your starting RB. Using a first round pick on a RB makes a GM feel like he's doing something to upgrade the running game, without necessarily having to replace every weak link on the offensive line. This kind of thinking also demonstrates short-term focus. A GM with a long-term vision for the team would realize that a good, solid OL needs to be part of that vision. Even if he couldn't achieve the entirety of that goal in one year, he wouldn't let himself get discouraged. He'd keep making additions to the OL's talent, until eventually the OL looked the way it should.

[BADOLBILZ]

?

 

I brought up the 7th round issue to illustrate that he had to work hard and overcome the bias against lowly-drafted players in order to establish himself.

 

The point is that where he was drafted should be irrelevant to his current or future status with the team. There is this belief that he must have worked incredibly hard to make an impact having been a lowly seventh round pick........and the reality is that Buffalo had an epically inexperienced wr corps in Chan's first year.......Stevie was actually the highest pedigree WR on the field much of the time with Donald Jones and David Nelson having been UDFA's. Perhaps Stevie was just a talented player who flew under the radar because of limited opportunities in college....he only had 2 seasons in division 1 and only one season as a starter......and he emerged when he did due to an excess of opportunity.

[mjt328]

 

 

We really don't have to go thru and re-document Stevie's drops/failures to make tough catches do we? There have been many, the most recent being the drop in the opener against NE that he received a lot of much deserved criticism for. I didn't suggest booting him off the team. Quite the opposite. Do I want the ball going to him in the clutch though? No. I think he has created a psychological barrier for himself in big situations and I don't trust him.

 

Stevie gets criticized (heavily by some Bills fans) for three things: excessive celebrations in the end zone, dropping passes and injuries. I think all issues are highly overblown.

 

From my recollection (correct me if I'm wrong), Stevie has drawn exactly TWO celebration penalties over his 6 seasons in the NFL. The Plaxico Burress-Gun imitation, and the Happy New Year writing on his t-shirt a few weeks later. Both happened 2 seasons ago, and we haven't seen ANY excessive celebrations since. Meanwhile, Victor Cruz can do a salsa dance practically every week and Gronkowski can imitate a British guard, and get no criticism.

 

The injury criticism is even more ridiculous. Until 2013, Stevie hasn't missed a single start because of injury. He's a very tough player, who guts it out for his team. Fred Jackson does the same thing - gets injured and plays hurt every other week, But he gets praised because of it.

 

Dropped passes? Probably the only legitimate issue with Stevie. But the truth is, everyone drops passes (even Jerry Rice and Calvin Johnson). Stevie has had 2 big ones in his career - Pittsburgh 2010 and New York 2011. It's not like he's got a chronic dropping problem. He's just had the unfortunate luck to lose them at very memorable times.